Hi All,

I'm trying to figure out DS7 and was hoping to hear what you guys think.

DS did the WISC IV last year and was found to be PG. He's extremely articulate, has very strong math and logic abilities and is very strong willed. In the last 2 years, he's been found to have mild SPD, weak gross and fine motor skills, and vision tracking issues. A lot of these are in the midst of getting resolved (through OT or perhaps through his normal biological development). Even his handwriting, which he hates to practice, seems to have taken a leap over the last several weeks.

Here's the thing - he seems to have poor attention for instruction. He started formal school at the start of the year and hates it. I believe he is getting somewhat appropriate subject acceleration, but his problem lies in the fact that he can't seem to pay attention. Arguably, his school is a sit-down-and-listen type which is tough for restless kids who need to move, but this seems to be happening elsewhere as well. He signed up for afterschool enrichment classes which are definitely more free form, but aside from Robotics and Math, he has a hard time focusing and will zone out happily alone or start playing with other similarly distracted kids. These are hands on, interactive classes that he loves - science and even a board game "class". I've seen his eyes dart around as the teacher tries to engage him because he's more interested in the equipment around him than what's being presented. These issues are new because prior to this year, he refused to go for any classes, which could be because he couldn't cope with the focus requirement. He says that the minute things slow down, he starts to have this "menu of rushing thoughts" which he happily runs through concurrently to keep himself occupied. Or he can't help thinking about the more interesting equipment around him than what the teacher is talking about, and his mental voice always takes precedence even if someone is trying to talk to him.

Socially, he finds it very hard to make friends. Because of his small size (he looks like he could be a small sized 6yo), he's always on the lookout for younger kids to play with in the playground so that he can have some parity when they rough it out. He's physically a very gentle boy and is worried about hurting others or getting hurt, but he does love to run around. With age peers, he tends to be very sharp and cutting which of course, drives them away. He does want friends though, so he's very frustrated in this area. I'm trying hard to coach him about watching what he says, but I think his mouth is his primary weapon when he's upset, so he's prone to using it. This part is definiely work-in-progress for as long as it takes.

The ADHD prognosis has definitely crossed my mind, as has auditory processing. The latter has been ruled out by the ear specialist. For the former, he started on the NEPSY (Neurospych test) in April but couldn't complete it (the psych wanted to do ALL the tests). Will this help identify if he has ADHD? Does it even sound like he has ADHD? He has super focusing powers when he's building his Robotics, Lego, reading, or working through math. Personality wise at home, he's very cheerful with a wicked sense of humour, talks A LOT and loves to be with adults. My plan is to homeschool after this school year (which for us is the end of this calendar year) to give him more time to delve into his obsessions (a whole long list of sometimes transient subjects, of which robotics is the most permanent so far).

TIA.

blob, My DS7 is similar and WAS evaluated for ADHD and determined NOT to have it. He looks around the room for the fun things he would like to play with rather than what the teacher is explaining right then. He's impatient with slow and repetitive instruction and wants to jump right in with the fun stuff. He has the opposite problem in regards to size. He is as big as his 11 year old cousin, so people expect him to be more socially mature than he is. He gravitates to older kids and then gets "thrown out" of their groups for being "gross and weird." (his words...) My son says what he thinks and uses his mouth as his weapon also. We are working hard on polite words and polite tone, but he will never use a question when he means a statement...it is just illogical to him. (Would you please hand me that pen? vs. Hand me the pen....uhhhh please.) Anyway, your description does not sound like ADHD to me...it sounds like a curious kid! Nan

The ADHD-looking piece together with the social piece, SPD, and motor deficits, plus PG, could also be Asperger's syndrome. My DS fits this profile too.

Hard to tease these things apart, but worth evaluating for, IMHO, so you know what you are dealing with.

DeeDee

Hi Blob. After our DS6 had a disastrous year in kindergarten (also a sit and learn environment) we had him assessed by an educational psych who is very experienced with gifted kids. The psych advised us that he was focused during the testing (just like with Legos at our home), and his results came back as HG/PG. Unfortunately DS has some perfectionism issues and is also only interested in what he wants to learn. This summer it has been pulling teeth practicing reading and writing, and has all but given up on guitar - which he used to love. The psych warned us that misdiagnosis can happen with these kids, especially with teachers who don't understand the quirks and traits that gifted kids can sometimes bring to a classroom. He recommended that we read the book "Mis-Diagnosis and Dual diagnosis of Gifted Children". We originally feared ADHD, especially after the teacher hinted around at it several times. But, we now know that our son is just a super active kid who talks a lot, and unless he is engaged, may (or will...) become disruptive. Socially he has struggled as well, we are trying to coach him on appropriate behavior. It seems that "annoying" is one word that kids seems to use with him. We are a little stressed about 1st grade in September, but hoping that meetings with the school beforehand will assist. I would love the opportunity to homeschool - how fortunate for you!

Have you read up on 'OverExcitabilities?'

I don't think that the diagnosis is so important, since there is no 'scientific' test of ADHD in kids with normal intelligence, let alone in kids with PG levels of intelligence.

I think that it's better to look at the tools and behavior management techniques aimed at kids with ADHD and try them and see if they are helpful. I even seems possible to me that there is a subset of the PG population that doesn't have ADHD but does benifit from stimulent medication to deal with their internal asynchrony. 'Differential Frontal Lobe Development Syndrome' anyone?

At some point there will be a conflict between the and keeping on task to please the teacher. When the material gets challenging if this habit is ingrained then the failure starts. Changing the environment may be all that is nescessary, and keeping a child spending lots of time engaged in creative learning that is self-directed seems like a lovely fix.

Saying that we 'don't know' leaves the door open to keeping the firm supportive pressure on to grow more control. The brain is tremendously changable, and continuing to reward for increased self-control seems like a reasonable approach.

Lots of folks use automoblie analogies to explain these kids - racecar engine with bicycle steering and brakes, yes?

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Of course it might not hurt to try increasing the challenge level at school with a bit more subject acceleration.

From my perspective, the OE theory may do a disservice to some kids because it doesn't provide a good roadmap to helping them overcome their difficulties.

For several years we looked for answers to why DS had so many difficulties and we were told "he's fine, just quirky and very bright." This approach cost him some years of early intervention services and cost us some years of understanding what was really going on with him and how to help. I regret both those losses.

If you label difficulties as quirks or OEs, you are more likely to decide you're just going to weather them with your child as best you can, ad hoc, without much professional guidance/ interference/ therapy. That may be the right thing to do in some cases. For us, it wasn't. We have done better with a diagnosis and targeted help.

My two cents, YMMV.
DeeDee

Thanks for all the replies, NanRos, DeeDee, Venture and Grinity.

It does sound like there is "something". I was perplexed enough to read up on ADD in the last few months and he fits the bill to a T in some areas, but he also has no trouble learning (the GT bit, I suppose). But when school over here started 2 weeks ago (term 3), the complaints this time have come in fast and furious. Plus his science teacher hinted about possible ADHD because of the literal in-your-face inattention. He also brought up the fact that DS will suddenly volunteer seemingly unrelated information. This is the first time I've heard about this last behaviour, but I have my doubts about this one. Many times, DS makes unusual unconnections that, when I give pause, gives me a blinding insight. I can't think of any examples offhand, but many times, I've exclaimed, "hey, that's a really interesting point of view!". So the issue is also of finding a teacher who "gets" my son.

We have no access to gifted specialists here. We don't even mind traveling for help, but like Grinity says, there are no scientific tests for ADHD. And having reviewed the literature, I'm against medicating. It's so true, in a different environment like when we homeschooled, we had great fun learning. I'm now quite inclined to treat the behaviour on a more holistic basis. Thankfully, there are quite a few good therapists here for LDs and for Aspergers (tks for flagging this, DeeDee. That was how this IQ testing partially started to begin with. The psych thinks not, but DS needs some social coaching for sure) so I will work with what's available.

"When the material gets challenging if this habit is ingrained then the failure starts." Grinity, this sentence rings so true. It ties in with the perfectionism that Venture talked about, and in my son's case, his self image. For sure, this is one of the main reasons why homeschooling is a great idea in our case. I still get the jitters thinking about it, but I'm gonna just suck in my gut and jump in with both feet.

Good luck, Blob!

DeeDee

Blob, I hope you don't think I just dismissed your concerns. Reading what everyone wrote, it looks like I did. And I am not the type of person to avoid evaluations! My DS7 has been having evaluations since he was 2! For him, they have been great because the ABA therapy, speech and OT he received has helped him get to where he is now. Being able to have results on paper with DS's specific needs has helped us communicate with teachers so he gets appropriate accommodations. We are going to yet another new school next year, but we are considering homeschooling also if this does not work for him. Good luck!! Nan

NanRos, I didn't see it that way at all, so no worries . It's so frustrating for us parents to see that something's not quite right, and yet so difficult to put a finger on it. Thanks for trying to help - it's the collective effort that is so helpful for my decision making.

Good luck on your journey, and everyone else too! We're all trying our best, and it's great to have a community we belong to and can count on.

Hi DeeDee -
I totally agree with you on this one, but from a happier perspective. In 2nd grade DS was causing all kinds of disruption at school and the school was sure it was ADHD, but we just didn't see it at home, so we took him to a local Psychologist, who (mis)diagnosed Non-verbal learning disorder purely on the subtest scatter on the WISC III, but poo-poo'd the idea that maybe bordom was causing the acting-out. We were told that he was 'bright and immature' by the Psychologist who was telling us about the scores that got DS into the Young Scholar's Program. Later I called the fellow because I was afraid that YSP was 'making something out of nothing' and he did tell me that he had never seens scores anywhere near as high as my son's scores. I really appreciate that level of honesty, but I feel that the situation was mishandled. Ah! Outer Directed Perfectionism!

(My guess is that Psychologists are all smart enough that if they don't have a specific reason to know better, they think being bored in elementary school is normal. With no idea about LOG it's easy to imagine that all gifted kids are able to make things interesting for themselves in socially appropriate ways. My son was plenty capable of finding things besides academics to be interested in, and yet the school adults didn't really enjoy his creativity in this area.)

So reading up on NVLD brought me to sensory integration disorder, which brought DS to a very useful 6 months of OT, privately and at school. At 7 he seems to be almost 'too old' so I am supergrateful that he got those 6 months in. Later I learned about OEs and thought, 'wow, if I had read this book before that book, we would have never gone to OT, and just kept struggling with modifing the environment - an easy trap for parents of only children to fall into.' The NVLD books also had great tips for parenting that were very helpful.

On the other hand, do I regret the time lost (all of 2nd grade) while DS learned that 'there was something wrong with him' at school and nothing was done for his real learning needs. Luckily for us DS got a great teacher for 3rd grade - his best so far, and I learned that sometimes doing the wrong thing (leaving him in that school) leads to the right result. It was a teriffic year.

But yeah, if anyone finds that crystal ball that all parents are supposed to be issued, please return it soon! Perfectionistic Mom would really like to be doing the right thing here!

Love and More Love,
Grinity

The responses here have been very helpful to me as well...as an adult who was diagnosed with ADHD-inattentive (and even though the more I read the more I am attributing to being gifted and not being appropriately challenged in school, I do believe that the diagnosis is accurate for me). Also as I am trying to figure out dd3--I googled psychomotor + gifted and came up with some good links but dd3 turned off the computer b4 I could get them here to share...

"He also brought up the fact that DS will suddenly volunteer seemingly unrelated information. This is the first time I've heard about this last behaviour, but I have my doubts about this one. Many times, DS makes unusual unconnections that, when I give pause, gives me a blinding insight. I can't think of any examples offhand, but many times, I've exclaimed, "hey, that's a really interesting point of view!". So the issue is also of finding a teacher who "gets" my son." I don't know how to do the quote thing sorry!

YES! I wouldn't go so far as to say that I was ever blindingly insightful, but I still have this experience. Only as an adult, it is too frustrating and time consuming to try to explain the steps I took to get there so I usually just don't. I can remember doing that as a kid and can see why it would be difficult not to share the thoughts, esp. when you might not understand how unusual it might be to make those connections that quickly.

The more I think about it though, I am seeing my dd's behaviour as clearly a result of inappropriate stimulation...and I see the same in myself right now, although it manifests in different ways.

So...ummmm...sorry I can't help the OP very much, but thanks to everyone for sharing your wisdom b/c it is really helpful for me.

WIshing you the best with hsing Blob--I am afraid that may be on the horizon here as well!

There is an accelerated learner forum at The Well-Trained Mind forums with lots of gifted homeschoolers.