Hi,

I wasn't sure where to place this, but was hoping someone familiar with fixating behavior might chime in with something. My DD4 has not been diagnosed with anything except being very bright (she has been observed by a school specialist, another psychologist, OT etc.)but some of her behavior has been challenging and left us wondering. I've noticed her getting much better recently with less explosive tantrums, more self control, and improved ability to navigate the playground equipment, but she still is an intense, tireless child LOL

One thing that is difficult for me to handle is how she fixates on certain characters. They rotate, but once she is locked on one, a majority of her time is spent acting out stories with that particular character and much of her conversation will pull in her favored character. One example, is she likes Beatrix Potter stories and will fixate on various characters. It really does go beyond what I see in other children. I am home with her full time (along with her 2 year old sister) and hearing about said character a hundred times a day and being asked to be one of the characters or use figurines to play out scenes is simply boring to an adult yet no child we know shares her interest or knows the stories or has the verbal and imaginative abilities and focus to do this sort of thing for what seems like very LONG sessions. I will sit with her and play with figurines or help her draw pictures of them and read stories to her while she acts them out, but at some point I am so DONE and she still wants to do more with that one character. Thank goodness she rotates them now. When she was two she was really obsessed with snowmen to such a degree my husband started to hate snowmen!

Anyway, has anyone seen this level of obsession on things like this? I know kids with Asbergers tend to get fixated on things like lists, space, etc. Is there a way to help them off their narrow track? I've actually talked to a variety of "experts" about Asbergers, but for the most part, only one person even gave it a second thought.

I don't know how to get her to move off her track so my brain doesn't explode from the repetition. I worry it just isn't healthy to fixate on the same characters to such an extent: reading the book, then making drawings, then using figurines, then acting out the characters. I am sure it all sounds cute, and it would be in small doses and if there was more variety, but the intensity is mind numbing. Help.

(not sure if this helps at all but I was a published writer of poetry and fiction and also performed in theater, dance, and have a natural drawing ability. She seems to have those things as well. Could this just be her creative part getting locked down or is something else going on? It really becomes all consuming for her. Whatever it is, it can drive us a bit batty. Right now she is pulling on my arm wanting me to see what "special guest" is in the living room...I am sure I met him before).

To me, it sounds creative. My ASD son will fixate on things, but will have no interest in including me in it. It sounds like your daughter is play acting and exploring ALL the details of a character...while my son would fixate on one specific aspect of a character and repeat that same thing over and over. For him, for a long time it was roads...we have 50 blank books FILLED with his drawings of roads. Yet, if he were like your daughter, he would have had me in his room taking me with him on his journey through the roads and showing me what we are all discovering. My son's roads are just roads. Do you see the difference? I'm not an expert by any means, but your daughter's obsession sounds creative and not like Asperger's...at least not the Asperger's as displayed by my son! Anecdotal, I know, but that's the best I got!!!! Nan

The extreme interest in the character doesn't sound all that unusual to me - my DS had a long phase of being that interested in Thomas the Tank Engine and friends, which fortunately for him is pretty common for boys here! I think if I were you I'd focus more on getting myself out of the loop than on changing her interests. My DS accepted pretty easily that adults had limits to their willingness to be involved; I realise (now!) that we were lucky in that, but maybe there are ways to get that across? Maybe even ham it up: "Oh no! DD wants me to play stuff about X again! I know DD loves playing things about X but I'm going to explode if I have to do that again!". She needs to know that it's fine for her to be interested in things you're not interested in.

thanks, Nan. I hope things are going OK with your son. One psychologist mentioned Asbergers based on other things--memory, use of formal language, tantrums, but other "experts" didn't see that trend as much. I do see the difference, but still would like more variety. Was it hard on you to be left outside of his interests?

Hi Collinsmom,

Thanks for your note. I have tried to convey that to her, but she is a persistent kid! I think that if she were into princesses or some common childhood obsession it would help, but her favorite characters are always just a little different than other kid's but fortunately not TOO far out...I'll keep working on conveying to her that adults can only play those games so much!

My niece who has Asperger's did this for years. It's often even harder to tease out in girls what's just intense creative play with characters, and what's spectrum behavior.

How are her other social skills? Reciprocal conversation? Cooperative play? Does she just want you to be interested, or does she want you to participate? Would she freak out if you banished or moved the special interest characters?

For our DS we limit access to special interests when they become a problem.

DeeDee

Twinkle Toes,

Video and computer games are the obsessions around here and have been since DS was 3. Big brothers got him interested and nothing could stop THAT train! I have spent months at a time listening to characters, levels, moves, strategy etc. etc. Each new game will become the obsession for a few months or so and then there will be a lull before the next. Right now it is Disney's Toon Town. I indulge him a bit but then say I am glad he has something he loves but I like to do many other things.

I do not think it sounds like Asperger's either. She is exploring and creating and wants you along! I think it is great she is passionate about something although I empathize fully with being on overload. :-)

Breakaway

I'll trade you a 3 year Pokemon obssession for Beatrice Potter. That actually sounds like a better deal. DS9 knows I don't understand what he is talking about but just wants me to listen.

I let him do Pokemon a lot but I also make sure he does other things. This is not too hard because he has many interests. This week, I found a book on how to make paper boomerangs. He really got into this.

TwinkleToes,

My son is like that. He's not Aspergers. And sorry to tell you again - DS is 7 and STILL like that . Actually, he's got a running parallel universe that been going on for 3 years now, and it's a mirror of our universe complete with social injustice, economic crisis, black holes, and anything you can think of. He's not interested in telling anyone else about his obsession - just me. This world is very real to him, and yes, he's extremely persistent in telling me. Even DH doesn't get the full on treatment. It's been tough on me, and I've snapped at him before (meltdown on my part), but it hasn't stopped him. Guess I've gotten used to it and am starting to think that when it does stop, I'll miss it.

It sounds like she is a very creative very bright child. I delt with same issues when he was 4yrs. old. I gave him as many different interests as possible to help balance his need for sensory input, with interesting input, so he didn't just get stuck on one thing. He would lay in the driveway for hours sorting out different rocks,color,type so I got him a rock tumbler and he made jewelry. Took him to the garden center and touched and smelled,tasted herbs, and talked about plant. Then started garden and discussed how to plant it and he loved that! Getting to pick and eat veg's. He collected everything! Took nature walks and gathered things to make things out of, grass and sticks became baskets. Since she is drawing you might go to library and get a book on plants or flowers to make a garden and let her draw a graph of where to put plants,how much space they take,ect. For a child with a creative, very bright mind she need variety and input. It might give you a bit of a break if you can funnel her energy into physical expressions of her amazing imagination through art, I found providing a very large variety of craft supplys it allowed a outlet for all that wonder energy. I bought a load of sand and he spent hours making ,sculpting and designing towns and ponds ect.. He wanted to touch everything in the store so all of these things worked great. He was down loading information by mult-sensory input. Your daughter is very verbal. She sounds wonderful. I do understand the overload when stuck on one thing. If you could find a child to play with her it would give you a break and bring her back from alternative universe to real universe. He also started card collections. I sure know what you are going through. So have a very long extensive list of how I delt with same issues. Let me know if you would like any more info. I tend to do TMI. Wishing you the best!

Oh my gosh, I have dealt with this MANY times before! My mother had to speak with these so-called "experts", and they said that I had Asperger's. (VERY introverted, preferred to read when everyone else was talking/watching a violent, gory movie, when I did talk, I hugged or didn't look the person straight in the eye, and I was bad at reading social cues that involved slang or so-called "hot" celebrities.) My mom, however, was giving it a second thought, but just told the specialists at my school (which specializes in behavioral and emotional difficulties, as well as early learning) so I could get the help I need. I believe that she MAY have a PDD (sorry if that offended you), but sometimes, obsessing over characters in a book could be just one of the things that make her unique. (I sometimes obsess over this character in a manga.) But I DO think she is gifted. I've had expierience dealing with this! ^^

-Violet

Hi DeeDee,

Thanks for your response. She makes attempts at back and forth conversation but that can be limited with some children because of their limited language skills. Her language is highly developed and so she tends to dominate, but she does ask other kids questions and respond to what they say. I think she is better with adults. She had a very adult conversation with a man with a dog we met the other day. She does do cooperative play, but again, likes to lead and dominate, but if she were around an older, stronger kid, she might be more inclined to follow more. She does like to be in control, but isn't set on things being "just so" or following routines or rules. She does like me to participate in the play, and is getting better at having me make up my own parts of the story rather than just sticking to what she wants to happen.

She is super outgoing and very adept at reading other's emotions. Other kids tend to like her, but I think she is a bit bossy and controlling. For instance we met a young girl today and my DD4 decided to be her tour guide and walked ahead pointing to things and reading things for her and showing her around. She approached her and introduced herself and asked her to play with them. The other girl seemed fine with it and the parents thought she was cute, but this is fairly typical:she wants to be the teacher, the tour guide, the boss...that may just be personality but there are just a cluster of things that always make me wonder if it is anyting else.

I think I would rather stick with the Beatrix Potter books too LOL I know nothing about Pokemon and hope it stays that way :-) At least the stories are cute for the most part, many have great vocabulary words, etc. I really wouldn't complain if these various obsessions didn't grow as large as they do and so consuming. I take her many places and try to foster new things to learn about to try to make sure her brain doesn't get too locked on anything, but it seems she is wired to lock down on things that capture her attention. That's all great but will be even better once she realizes I don't share that interest and no one else might either!

You mentioend that she is outgoing and adept at reading other's emotions. That is not ndicative of Aspergers at all. How is her eye contact? And is she okay at respecting other people's personal physical space?

TT, Yes, it was hard and frustrating to be left out of his interests. It took a long time and training (of the parents) by therapists to be able to get him to involve us. He has made amazing progress from when he was initially diagnosed to now (it's been 5 years this month) in fact so much so, that I have been questioning his initial diagnosis. But then I read something like your post and the difference between how my son was at 4 and your daughter is really stands out. Anyway, thanks for asking TwinkleToes! DS is doing so so great Nan

Hi Twinkletoes,

Being adept at reading others' emotions sounds like NOT at all an Asperger feature. It's a huge asset.

The other traits, the being stuck on one play topic all day, and the bossiness, both can be part of AS (but aren't necessarily-- you'll get no armchair diagnosis from me).

To give you some context: my niece who has AS played repetitively with a few things, usually in a heavily scripted way such that she resisted input from other people. Her language use and vocabulary seemed sophisticated, but a lot of it was borrowed bits of books and TV shows. She orders other kids around: things have to be her way for her to play successfully with them. She is a very bright kid, but quite inflexible.

If you have concerns based on what the psychologist told you, you might want to have it checked out-- we finally got useful diagnostic info from the autism center of a children's hospital.

It is often hard for docs to figure out what is Asperger's and what is giftedness-- especially in girls-- so if you choose to pursue these questions, you would need to find a specialist who is really equipped to do this.

HTH,
DeeDee

I believe her eye contact is very good, but she does like to get into other people's personal space and we are working on that. She often comments on how people feel and talks about their expressions and I was hoping that tilted the scale away from Asbergers, but there is always a little sliver of concern, but so far, all the "experts" say it is just personality traits and giftedness...

Good to hear, Nan. That's great that you found something that worked for him. It is wonderful that you found helpful therapists. I wish someone could direct me a little bit with her even if there is no name for the way she is challenging.

I just read some traits of Asbergers in girls and had to add that my DD4 has highly expressive, inflected language and her imagination does seem original. She used to be very rigid in her play and not want me to add things, but lately she has let me add more and participate more.

Thanks for sharing a little bit about your neice. I am very interested since we hear so little about girls with Asbergers.

My DD is very imaginative and has been for as long as I can remember, but not to the intensity that you describe of your DD. My DD is always playing with special little characters throughout the day but they come along with us and interact with our day ... if that makes sense? She adapts her play to whatever we are doing. IE. we were out and about and DD had to take her characters in the store with us (tucking them under her hoodie) and they went shopping with her but they got into trouble ... getting into paint; behind things, etc. It was definitely entertaining.

As for my involvement: I'm not required to play but she welcomes it and thrives off of it. But when I'm not in the mood it doesn't slow her down.

So what does your gut say about your DD? It seems you still ponder it even though you have seen numerous specialists. I will say this ... if she does have Asbergers it is really hard to diagnose before age 7 or 8. I give you high props for not taking one opinion as absolute and continuing to research it, but my advice is not to become obsessed with it. Your daughter is a special little girl regardless of if she is or isn't on the spectrum.

Hi Twinkle Toes

My DS 4 has simlar obsessions around characters to your DD. His favourites at the moment are the Land Before Time dinosaurs. We draw them, take them outside to play, I've had to prepare extra toast at breakfast for them and he's made a bed for them to sleep in. We discussed this with the pyschologist when he did his WPPSI and she said it was fine because it wasn't narrow rather very creative and expansive.

I do empathise with how mind numbing it can get for you though - the temptation to yell enough is very strong sometimes.

Hi Katelyn's Mom,

First off, I apologize if this got long. I think I just need a place to vent.

Touche: telling me not to obsess in my post about my DD's obsessions. I do tend to lock down on things and micro analyze them, and I often post questions on here related to my "dissections" because this is such a diverse group of people who often have interesting, and more important, similar, experiences and suggestions. Also, when I begin something, I can hyper focus on it until it is completed so maybe that is what this will turn into for her. I don't have ADHD or Asbergers or any LD, but was gifted and artistic and good old fashioned weird to some, but popular when younger, but more isolated as I have gotten older.

My gut tells me something is throwing my DD4 "off" but I can't put my finger on it. I have always been considered perceptive and aware, but sometimes we have a strange blindness with our own children so I have tried to pull in other perspectives. I guess I am less interested in labels than in ways to make our lives more enjoyable.

She is a bubbly, apparently happy,loving child at least on the surface, but my husband just does not get along with her and they have conflict daily and he tends to see her as having some major "problem." Of the two of us, I tend to see her issues as related to giftedness, isolation, conflict with her father, etc, but some small part of me does feel something is a little off but that makes me very sad since I don't know quite what to do to make things easier for all of us. Maybe she will come together as she gets older.

I think I may just be burnt out on two of them so close in age who are so intense and who want so much interaction from me: yesterday I was with them every minute for 13 hours straight. I am working on getting my DD4 to not speak to me for short periods: yesterday I praised her for not talking to me for 30 seconds at a time while in the car. Talk about baby steps.

To answer your question, DD will take characters along and adapt her play to the activity and will focus on new things when we are out and about.

Hmmm... I wonder if most of your concern stems from your husband's reaction to DD? It isn't the first time you have mentioned him and his attitude about her. And please don't take this the wrong way or negatively, but perhaps your husband needs to seek some help. Help from whom? I'm not sure. Psychologist? One who works with families? Someone who could couch him on how to respond and help? Is your husband gifted?

I suspect that for you; you are stuck in the middle with the pressure of being the main care giver for both your DDs. And you aren't getting personal time. Does your husband take the reigns and give you any time away from it all? If not, you need to insist on it.

And to be honest ... IF your DD does have Asbergers or something on the spectrum it is most likely a mild case and from what I've read of your posts you are doing everything right now to work on social cues and interaction.

Also, what about your family? Is your mom able to give you some comparison between you and your DD from when you were her age? I suspect your DD is not that different from you.

Twinkle Toes

Your DD sounds a lot like my DD7 except my DD does not test gifted. She is a very talented artist however and all the things you mentioned and then some

- outgoing, talkative
- likes to be helpful, is compassionate and funny
- bossy, likes to teach or in less nice terms be dominant
- very adept at reading social cues but can often use this to manipulate (more obvious to me)
- Kids like her but I think she wears them out if they are not also high energy intense kids
- Often fails to respect what I consider normal boundaries e.g. will often look into the refrigerator at someone else's house to see what they have to drink (I have managed to explain and have her stop this) All my other kids would have felt what I think is a natural respect or at least hesitancy to invade or touch other people's property/space.

When she is in her good space she is amazing and wonderful but when she is in a bad mood...LOOK OUT!

What is it like when your DD does not get her way or is in a situation where she is bored or unhappy? This is when I see my DD's traits get ugly. All that intensity etc. is not pretty when it turn negative.

Like you I often wonder if she has something going on that I am not able to put my finger on. I have ruled out ADHD. She is actually in therapy because I want to make sure I am not missing anything. So far I have no answers. DD does love to go though so we will continue.

What set of behaviors make you the most uncomfortable? What do you think is the underlying factors between your DH and DD that cause friction?

I totally relate and understand why it can be tiresome. I will say that these sorts of very in depth obsessive interests are not uncommon with gifted kids though and that in isolation from other flags would not suggest Asperger's to me.

Also, while it may not help now, let me offer as encouragement. Our child was much like this as a preschooler as he got older it is fantastic. He's focused. He's creative. He's driven. Hard to take in a four year old but fantastic in a teenager.

My suggestions:
1. Focus on you. Do you have stuff in your life at home that you really enjoy? Are you learning something new? If not I would strongly suggest trying something new - knitting, woodworking, etc. It will help your daughter see that sometimes you need to focus on your own stuff just like she needs to focus on her stuff. Also, I would make sure if at all possible that you are getting out of the house kid free breaks often and using that time for something really relaxing - not just running errands.

2. Clearly communicate your limits and give her notice ahead of time. It might look something like this: "It is 9:30 now and I can play Beatrice Potter until 10:15 and then I need to do laundry. Let's set the timer for 45 minutes. When it goes off it will be time for me to be done." The grim reality is that yeah, you probably have to engage in this kind of play more than you want to, but you don't have to do it all the time. It is important to kindly talk about the limits of other people and this is much better than losing your temper later because you are irritated with it.

3. She needs to have some time exactly as she wants it, but some of the time you can work on gently expanding the boundaries to related but slightly different activities. Perhaps she'd like to dictate a story for you to type on the computer and then you can print it up and she can illustrate it and make copies for the grandparents. Maybe she'd like a tape recorder to tell her stories and then she can listen back to them later. Seeing some plays helped our son get the idea of putting on shows which involved a lot of time preparing on his own so that cut down the parent centered time. It will give at least a bit more variety to her world and be less boring for you.

My closing thought... As the expression goes: The days are long but the years are short. It may seem hard to take right now, but you will miss it. So, extend yourself to more of it than you want to. Take lots of video and photos. You will miss this someday.

gosh, thanks everyone for responding. It feels so good to come some place where I feel we are a little less weird LOL

My Dh is not gifted, though his brother is. They do not speak to one another any more. He says that we both (my DD4 and I) talk too much, feel too much, think too much, etc. He does better with our two year old, but not that much better. She is more like I am, but even as a child,I wasn't as loud and forceful. It is like I had steroids while she was in the womb (and I was so careful of what I ate and was exposed to)yet is also super girlish. The conflict with my DH is he responds to her and argues with her as if she were a forty year old guy. He responds to the "gorilla" part in her but forget the 38 inch tall blonde preschooler's emotions and understanding.

I do not have any living family and his family is of limited help. I know what I really need to do is work out time for myself and for the girls to have outside input.

Hi Breakaway4,

My DD4 is at her worst when she doesn't get her way. She is learning to respond with less intensity in those situation, but I hold my breath for a moment when she is up against something that isn't her way. She is just more animated, more easily wound up, and quite outgoing, but when the flip side is revealed, oh boy is she louder and more intense than other kids we know. So far, no one thinks it looks like ADHD so I am just trying to find ways to help her learn to contain. I am using the Nurtured Heart approach and the Kagen Method both which use positive reinforcement to try to help them build the opposite behavior of the one that is causing problems. So, if the child is very impatient, every time they show even a sliver of patience, the parent tells them they are being patience and has specific praise. For instance, I am trying to help her realize she is using self control at times and the more we praise the tiny steps of self control, the more we hope to see it
increase.

Is there anything the therapist recommends?

Hey Passthepotatoes,

Thanks, that made me a little teary thinking of how much I would miss the cute little obsessions that will seem so innocent some day when she is off being a cool teenager LOL

I truly appreciate your taking the time to give me such thoughtful suggestions. I took all them to heart and will re-read them for reminders. Thanks.

Hi Twinkle Toes,

No formal recommendations from the therapists yet. Just as you say - catch and reward the positive. She is actually pretty calm at home, well organized, helpful etc. most of the time like any other child. Her ramped up behavior starts the minute we are in a new or exciting situation - the grocery store, a dance class etc. She does actually jump up on the couch and laugh out loud at funny shows or during a fun game though. I think it is over-stimulation, poor sensory processing and a lack of ability to self-regulate. It is the inability to self-regulate that gets me...why just this one child of mine...what is behind it? Sigh....

Well I am sure that like me you adore your little ones and yes as passthepotatoes says the days go slow and the years fly by. Perhaps this perspective is easier for me as my older children are 19 and 21 and it seems to have passed in a heartbeat.

Definitely research all the places and options that allow her to be with others learning how to be social and getting her energy needs met while you get a chance to see other grown-ups and take a bit of a rest! Easier said than done I know. :-)

And vent vent vent away!

Breakaway

Hi Twinkle Toes, I noticed a link to this book Dreamers, Discoverers and Dynamos on another thread (recommended resources) and after reading the amazon reviews thought you might want to take a look if you haven't already come across it. One review in particular struck me this 'Does your child talk incessantly about whatever subject he's currently passion-filled? ...In short, does he drive you crazy and you're at the end of your rope?' There are some other reviews on here if you search 'dreamers' which note that even though the title talks about problems at school it offers much broader advice and is perhaps misnamed

thanks for thinking of me. I briefly read the reviews on Amazon and it reminded me of myself in school in some ways. I'm going to go read more and see if it fits here. Thanks again. Can I say one more time how much I appreciate this board? Thanks.

Thank you for the book recommendations! I'm going to have a new book to read online! ^^

I was reading the little acedote about Kate. I saw some similarities with me and her, especially the part about not turning homework in (partially because I forgot, and sometimes because it was not "perfect".) this seems pretty interesting!