We had DS ( 6 years 4 months, starting 1st grade) do achievement testing yesterday- the WIAT-II. He took the SB-V last year and is confirmed HG. We don't have results back yet from the WIAT but our ed.psych said there was a very large discrepancy between his reading/math scores and his writing. She suggested that we give it 6 months in school before we begin looking into diagnosis.

I've noticed at home that he has a horrible time putting anything on paper. He can talk for an hour but it will take him 20 min to write "The dog sat." He can spell just fine just above grade level, but he cannot spell on paper at all. "The dog sat" becomes "tHe dgo sta."

His teacher last year refused any academic accommodations, he spent the K year coloring letters and butterflies.

So my question is- is there any sort of defining characteristic that will help us figure out if it is dysgraphia vs. a sheer lack of instruction? I've googled and read just about everything here but I'm not sure I still understand at this age how to tell the difference.

One thing you could do is try to do a little instruction yourself at home and see how it goes. My kids have liked the Handwriting Without Tears series, and it did help my DD who has a visual/motor integration problem which affects her ability to write.

http://www.hwtears.com/

I was curious about how drawing is affected by this (I recall my ds took quite a while to become at all fluent in writing, and still sort of shuns it... but loves to draw. ) His spelling is perfect, his drawing good, so I guess that he doesn't fit these three categories.

You may have seen this one already, it was interesting to me, anyway:

dysgraphia facts

What are the different types of dysgraphia?
While dysgraphia may be broadly classified as
follows, there are many individual variations that
affect both treatment and prognosis:
1. In dyslexic dysgraphia, spontaneously written
text is illegible, especially when the text is
complex. Oral spelling is poor, but drawing and
copying of written text are relatively normal.
Finger-tapping speed (a measure of fine-motor
speed) is normal.
2. In motor dysgraphia, both spontaneously written
and copied text may be illegible, oral spelling is
normal, and drawing is usually problematic.
Finger-tapping speed is abnormal.
3. In spatial dysgraphia, people display illegible
writing, whether spontaneously produced or
copied. Oral spelling is normal. Finger-tapping
speed is normal, but drawing is very problematic.

In DD's case, she likes to draw but I would say that her drawing ability is below average for her age.

Chris-
The description of dyslexic dysgraphia fits my DS nearly perfectly. He can muster up some spontaneous text that is legible but not usually intelligible. You can read what he wrote with very shaky letters, caps in the middle of the word etc. But he can copy decently enough if he goes letter by letter. If he tries to go word by word, it all gets jumbled again.

Thanks for the link for Handwriting Without Tears- I will have to check that out! School starts on Wednesday so I'll have more indication soon about how far behind he really is. It's hard starting at a new school with new expectations.

By the way, he absolutely hates to draw unless it's from a "how to" manual. I always assumed this was his strong perfectionism. But now I wonder if it's related to copying being so much easier for him.

teach your son to type.
while he might "grow out of it", it is very possible he won't. learning to type will help him overcome the written expression discrepancy.

if you want your school to accomodate him, he must qualify for special education. the teacher really is under constant pressure not to refer too many kids to special education for evaluation. Most likely she'd already used her quota on more difficult children. most evals are saved for severe behavior problems.

So, to get around that YOU must request, in writing (use email), to the principal, special education director and special education lead teacher, an "educational EVALUATION" for "all areas of suspected disabilities" (you just use those words...no need to specify any disabilities...it's just legal jargon).

This should help you parse out whether there is a true disability. His writing problems can be called "dysgraphia" but in and of itself dysgraphia doesn't tell you much. You need to know why he is dysgraphic. Is he dyslexic (highly gifted kids can be excellent readers and still have dyslexia, btw). Does he have ADHD? Is he dyspraxic?

Some of them will qualify him for an IEP and some will qualify him only for a 504. He may be perfectly fine, but it is better to find out for sure.

For us, the dysgraphia turned out to be a symptom of dyspraxia. Dyspraxics have a terrible time in written expression. We taught him to type, gave him Inspiration software to help him organize his far advanced ideation, and the sped teacher used a written expression curriculum for a year. He zoomed to the 99th percentile in his language arts and writing in 18 months.

your mileage may vary, but check everything thoroughly so it doesn't get to ingrained to fix, imo.

willa

Try graphing paper for writing. That often helps.

We had the same test results with my DS6 on the woodcock johnson....he had just finished K when we did the testing and it showed in both reading and math that he was on various levels of second grade but with the writing it showed that he was actually at mid K level and in some cases beginning of K in writing. We had taken him to get a full eval last year out of concern for his handwriting/drawing/fine motor skills and they diagnosed him with Dyspraxia. Everyone offered some great advice...we also used handwriting without tears and we use a special graph paper to help with writing...we are trying to look for a good keyboarding program so he can learn to type and are looking at getting a learning keyboard with a little bit bigger keys for him. His "writing" stories is amazing and will sit for me for an hour and make up his own book and have me do most of the typing...so there is NO way he could write all of the stuff that comes out of his brain so the teacher hasn't been able to see that he really can formulate ideas in his head and has a lot to write about he just can't get it down on paper.
My little guy is the same way with spelling as well...he can verbally tell me how to spell a word when he is NOT thinking about it or focusing in on it...but the minute he has to sit down and try to remember how to spell a word, he can't...I am convinced he is also a visual -spatial learner.

Here is the Dyspraxia website that I found a LOT of really helpful information
http://www.dyspraxiausa.org/

My DS11 was diagnosed with dysgraphia by a psychologist when he was 9. His handwriting is not messy, his spelling is good, but the output is limited. When he was 9 I was not entirely convinced that he wouldn't "grow" out of it. By 11 the discrepancy between his verbal output and written output had become several years (writing at about 3rd grade level, speaking at ?? - huge, sophisticated vocab, voracious reader, no organizational or cohesion problems in speaking).

His diagnosis is based upon the large discrepancy between verbal and written output. In our case, the teacher is allowing accomodations (using computer in class, dictating some work, not writing complete sentences on math homework). After this next year, we may have to go back to a 504 plan to get the accommodations.

I found interesting discussions regarding the complexity of the writing process in Mel Levine's book "The Myth of Laziness." There are numerous factors involved in writing and therefore many causes for dysgraphia. I would definitely try to begin the process of finding out where the difficulties are because some issues may respond to therapy, whereas others really do not.

Whatever happens, don't let the teachers call him lazy or stubborn! If I could go back in time I would change those dynamics.

Dottie-
Thanks for the feedback. His oral spelling is above grade level, though not as strong as his reading and math scores. He understands phonetic rules and generally can spell words that are phonetic and those that are complex but follow rules like ph=f sound. All of his problems come when he begins to put it on paper.

He can spell single words with a lot of focus. It took 25 min to get him to write the word "get" 3x and then "them" 3x today for his spelling homework. He had a spelling test today and got the other words right, but reversed his g in get and had the letters all mixed up in "them". So his homework was to write each missed word 3x. The correct words were CVC words like ran, pan, tan. The jumbled letters and reversed letters are far worse if he has to write a full sentence.

I keep coming back to something not bring "right" because of odd little things. He can copy a sentence perfectly but the letters will not be on the line, some will be too big and too small. But if you give him the sentence to look at and take it away, it goes back to being a big mess again even for a very simple three or four word sentence.

Mon-
We will keep an eye on it and I'm also collecting samples of work to see if I can see an improvement over the next couple of months. It is hard to tell if things wishfully changing in my own head but when I lay stuff next to each other from the last year, I don't see any difference.

He has memorized all of his addition facts to 20, can skip count and is beginning to multiply without instruction. But he can't subtract to save his life- he always turns it into an addition problem. Like 15-8 became 8+_=15 yesterday. I figured this was a weird quirk. Is this something you see in your son?

I will begin teaching him to type. I have fought this because I didn't want him to become reliant on typing and not learn how to write just because it was hard for him. But it seems like maybe his frustration is keeping him from getting other important lessons.

They don't come all wrapped up in a neat package do they?

I also have a ds with a writing problem, but he has not been diagnosed as having dysgraphia. He seems to just have a fine motor delay. He also hates to write with a pencil/pen/etc. because it's difficult. (He wears velcro shoes, pull-up pants, and has difficulty handling a knife and fork too.) He is not movtivated to write (or wear other clothes, etc.) He's been to OT for more than a year, plus OT instruction in school. He is now going in to 4th grade, and we've finally thrown in the towel. We have to get past the act of writing so he can actually learn to write (in the creative sense). He's been practicing typing on and off for a few years, so he's pretty good at it(he types at about twice the rate he can print or write in cursive). This year in school he will have a portable keyboard (alphasmart).

My ds does not qualify for an IEP (since there's no dysgraphia), but he does have a 504 plan. For that, all you need is a diagnosis from a doctor (ds's says he has a graphomotor impairment) and show that the disability is causing him difficulty in school. '

Teaching your child to type is an investment in hsi future. Even if miraculously he can write well tomorrow, typing is still a good thing to know. Start with this web site to work on it. You can always buy another program later if you want.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/typing/

CAMom. I would not make too much of the subtraction facts. Dh is dyslexic (and very gifted) and he also has a super hard time with subtraction. But honestly, being a math teacher, I would say that it is very common for many students to be much better and faster at addition/multiplication than subtraction.

I think it is important to keep a close tab on him and see whether he can keep up. If, after helping him out, he still is not catching up to his peers in just that area, then it might be time to start searching for specialists.

Yeah, they don't, but you're doing a great job figuring this one out! Hugs!!