For me, the social communication piece of 2E is the most confusing and difficult to understand. It seems like, reading here, this is a problem for nearly every 2nd E, at least to some degree.

So many of us outright dismissed "social skills" as a potential problem with our children, if they were: polite, talkative, friendly, gregarious, outgoing, funny, popular with peers, etc.

My duh moment was recognizing that being "sociable" and having good social communication skills are two different things.

This evolved over time, as it slowly began to dawn on me that while DS is highly verbal and very funny (I believe this is is social currency), he does not use language effectively to meet his basic needs. I think for some of these kids, they have had such ineffective interactions they begin to avoid them. I could write a novel, but it's summarized by DS' declaration that "I've figured out that when I try to explain myself, I just make everyone angry, so it's better to nod and agree."

He will agree to ANYTHING an authority(teacher) says and will not even attempt to explain things like "I did my work but I can't find it. I don't understand how to begin this assignment. I was absent that day." Etc. Ahem. At least he doesn't argue. I guess.

He has begun to spin little tales like "my mom took it out of my backpack, I left it on my homework desk, etc.," but only under duress. I have mixed feelings about this.

I found this article and it's really long, but for those of us to continue to wonder what-the is going on with our children, I thought it elaborated in some useful ways:
https://www.socialthinking.com/Articles?name=Social%20Thinking%20Social%20Communication%20Profile

FWIW, my DS has never felt "bullied," but I suspect strongly this is because he has always been surrounded by a fairly diverse and accepting crowd--as well as many gifted peers occupying various positions on the socia-skillsl spectrum. I do remember hearing this conversation, once, when he was young:

DS' classmate: YOU'RE ODD!
DS: I'M NOT ODD, YOU'RE ODD!!!!
(And I remember thinking, "this is an odd argument for a couple of kindergartners to be having.")

I think he has also been protected, somewhat, by the fact that his interests are fairly mainstream (sports, video games, ) and he is not obviously geeky and uses class clown persona to increase his acceptance, fairly successfully.

Another long post from me...please share any thoughts, resources, ways of conceptualizing social communication, etc., of which you are aware.

Thanks for sharing the article eco - I don't have time at the moment to share thoughts, but fwiw, everything you wrote about your ds I could have written about mine, from the first paragraph up until the paragraph about spinning tales (and even that he got to eventually, this year in high school lol!). On the other hand, rather than "tales", when he was younger (and also still sometimes now), he simply doesn't realize he hasn't done something. Like turning in an assignment, for instance, he will tell us he's turned it in, and genuinely believe he's turned it in, and then find it in his notebook two days later. Or think he's lost something that's sitting right next to him.

One place (among many) that this has caused challenges for my ds is in self-advocacy. He often doesn't ask for accommodations when he should (in high school) because he is still essentially learning basic communication skills. He's come a long way (with a lot of practice), but he is unsure enough of his ability to know what he's "supposed" to say (his words) in many situations that he won't speak up and he just accepts not getting something he could get or needs. For instance, he needs extended time on math tests due to his other challenges. His teacher knows this and gives him extended time on classroom tests by letting him finish up during the following day when he has free time. DS ran out of time to do all the problems on his final exam, but rather than ask for extended time he just opted to answer with "educated guesses" on the rest of the questions.

Gotta run - thanks for posting!

polarbear

The thing that is the absolutely most baffling to me re: DS is that he doesn't realize that he HAS done something, or at least doesn't know how or bother communicating that.

Frequent conversation in our house involves my hovering and making DS do some worksheet, DS resisting, my continuing to apply pressure, DS finally complying and completing the work--

And then announcing, very emotionally, that he is SO TIRED OF THIS WORKSHEET because he has already done it three times.

And then--I dig through the backpack and find the worksheet. Three copies of it. All of them partially, mostly, or completely...completed.

I think he is just so beat down. I don't know what to call this. Learned helplessness, maybe?

I suspect that DS is totally astonished any time he looks in his binder and finds his work where it is supposed to be, ready to turn in. I suspect he has no idea how this has occurred, whether it's his own doing, my doing, or some combination.

I'm currently trying to piece out why one of my DC finds it very easy to express his wealth of knowledge or share random observations out of the blue, but has difficulty in expressing opinion. I hear a lot of "I don't know," and it's not always a cop-out -- he will say he really doesn't know. It's almost a freeze at times. Anything from "do you like this shirt?" while shopping, to "do you want to try this activity?" to "what do you think this might mean?" when reading together.

Some of it is anxiety -- he will say he doesn't know when he's actually unsure of what to expect and not sure if he would like it, but kind of actually wants to, like about inviting a friend over (where I don't know means "maybe but I'm nervous."). Is the opinion aspect anxiety over not knowing what the correct answer is supposed to be?

But something I read here recently made me realize the way I phrase the question just doesn't always work for him. I changed my question to "would you wear this shirt if you woke up one day and saw it in your dresser?" and he said "yeah."

If he actually has a strong opinion, he will share that honestly. And it's good to be adaptable -- like if you actually don't care where to go eat that night, it's great to say "I'm flexible, what do you have in mind?" and go with it.

How do I teach him how to reach and share an opinion when he's unsure and can't think it through? I think it gets more important as he gets older and is expected to engage, lead, and debate with peers. Is it just part of growing up, or is there a piece of the puzzle missing?

Longcut, we are in the same position with our DS17. And you're right, it has become an issue now that he has to write not only English essays, but even science lab write-ups, when it comes to the "observations" part. I believe it is due to anxiety, but he is being evaluated, as well. Yesterday he described in delighted detail for 20 minutes the cool national lab they visited on a field trip, but "what do you want for dessert?" He couldn't answer. I used to rephrase questions as you do, but the world doesn't do that for them, and I wish I'd realized sooner that it is an issue.

As a child, I and one of my sibs both had great difficulty with opinions, deciding on mundane items (clothes, food), etc. In retrospect, I think my sib had difficulty because they tend to be phrased as absolutes, and because it's impossible to know every possible condition or piece of potentially relevant data, the question could not be answered ("insufficient data").

I eventually learned to manage my "IDK"s when I finally began to realize that there is no real bad outcome regardless of how I answer, "what would you like to order for dinner?". Very little is riding on my answer. It is highly likely that I will enjoy whichever dish I order, and nothing seriously bad will happen if I don't. There might be another dish I would like better, but that doesn't take away from my pleasure in the dish I have. And if I don't decide on either one, I'll have nothing, which is highly likely to be a less desirable outcome.

In some cases, I think this is a form of perfectionism.

Oh yeah. Insufficient data! That does apply. He even said as much. There could be something better, there's no way to know which is better, "without concrete data."

DS13 just recently began to resist having an opinion about certain things, this year. In his case, I think he wants to control his "brand." What I mean is--he doesn't feel safe expressing himself and doesn't trust people with his personal information. Case in point: he had to write an opinion piece and didn't want to discuss anything political, even though he is quite engaged in current events.

Whether you frame it as lacking sufficient data (which could be interpreted as a fear of looking ignorant or making the wrong moral/ethical choice) or agonizing about a menu item (fear of making an irrevocable choice, altering destiny), I understand all of these examples as anxiety-driven to varying degrees.

Also, it seems like some of it is inflexibility. I prompt DS with: pretend you have a solid opinion and take it from there. That doesn't always work. Or ever. :P

What really stresses ME out, is those %#{*^+ security questions that insist you have a "favorite"...anything. Do people really have this many favorites? How?

(I think that is related. I don't know how. My favorites are always context-specific.)

Spaghetti-I bet it is easier for fakers to get hired. I wonder about career success and longevity, though.

So many of DS' classes start with an "about me" assignment. Well, I can see that: even, or especially, at advanced levels, the teacher wants a head start on who his students are. Their first tip on who DS is: he can't do that assignment. The teachers tell me "it's an easy 5 points, to start off the year" but now that DS has a diagnosis of social anxiety, I can ask the teachers to do something else for those 5 points, because he can't. Can't. Do it.

Yeah, we've tried "pretend" and "BS it" but, ugh, gifted = too straightforward?

NotherBen, this might not help your ds, but fwiw for anyone else out there who's child is struggling with the "about me" task" - those beginning of the year "about me" assignments were beyond challenging for my ds with his expressive writing challenge. One of the things his SLP worked with him on was developing a set of responses he could use for that specific assignment, since it's an assignment that crops up again and again year after year. In his case, memorizing and having that prepared list served several purposes: learning how to write it to begin with, practicing it over time as it's asked for again and again and hence helping it become less work, and also repeated assignments were actually good for ds in that he could compare the same type of assignment from year to year and see that he was making progress, when it most often felt (to him) like he wasn't making any progress, because he was so caught up in the day-to-day drudgery of always feeling like he wasn't any good at writing.

Hope that makes sense!

polarbear

NB, DS here can't do those either, at all. Hard to convince anyone that is a can't, isn't it?

Hugs.

I can do it but I see no reason that I should be required too share private details with a stranger. Because of this I find it very hard and am likely to refuse.

In a few months DS will be submitting the mother of all "about me" essays: the college application essay. The mere mention of it brings him to the brink of tears. Worse, there's one for the Common App (an online base form that many colleges use to hold your basic information) in addition to the one each school asks for.

This.

First day of the 4th grade GT class my son was asked to write one of these essays. He wrote 2 sentences while most other kids wrote 1 1/2-3 pages. Teacher told me at the first parent-teacher conference that this had her very worried that it was a bad placement. Turned out 6th grade of the program it WAS a very bad fit and this was a sign of other troubles to come. Although she came to have a lot of affection for my son & said he reminded her a lot of her own kid. My son had an extremely hard time talking about himself and we now have it in his 504 that teachers need to re-frame prompts like this.

I'm worried about that college essay. I intend to hire him a college essay tutor. Although he claims he already knows what he wants to write about.

So not long ago I had a student who balked at writing a personal narrative for me on an assessment. I tried "it doesn't have to be your actual favorite," "pretend", "just pick something", and "I just need a writing sample." Got ~30 words tossed off with a sneer and an expletive, which might crack double-digit percentiles. Might. We then had a serious little talk about long-term implications of blowing off your IEP testing. After some obligatory ennui on the part of the student, we finally negotiated a second attempt on the essay, with the revised prompt, "pick something you care about" followed by the remaining standard directions. This time, the student generated an essay above the 90th %ile.

I think that is often the key--something you care about. You don't have to write about yourself, just about a topic you care about. Most teachers consider both pieces of writing to be "about me".

Some people find it truly disturbing to be asked to share about themselves-- even if they generally want to comply.

Our best writing successes have come with this book, which has a ton of writing prompts that are not personal:

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/unjournaling-dawn-diprince/1110793498

Aeh, we've already talked about DS' college essay focusing on the mathematical concept he's been working on all year, or the math-music project he worked on for class. But it still brings him grief. An English assignment was to propose a solution to a world problem (and you had a couple of choices, I think) and he came up with a good idea, but: "Mom, it's for the Gates Foundation. BILL Gates. He might read it. It has to be really outside the box and usable."

Just got notice that University of CA posted new prompts for next year.

http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/how-to-apply/personal-questions/freshman/index.html

These questions look a bit better framed than the old questions. But it's not one question, instead write 4/8 shorter answers. Not sure if this is going to be easier or harder. Of course the kid could just apply to schools without an essay requirement. (The Cal States don't require essays.) But I think that might be selling himself short.

I'll look at the book. What was particularly frustrating was 7th grade "health" which was the first trimester of science. School thankfully moved DS's science teacher after a miserable 1st week with a teacher who was requiring 3 written affirmations each day. I was pulling my hair out & it was only the first week of school. DS certainly has NO interest in sharing with this teacher he barely knew. And has never been very good at just "bullsh*ting" anything which is what many of the other kids would do. (Junior High science was a total waste of time IMO.)

I may be overthinking this, but I'm stuck on the idea that it's self-preservation, for some of our kids who haven't been treated especially well.

I really like pb's idea about having a stock answer on hand. It was really helpful to me when I realized that "tell me about yourself" in a job interview could be answered with references to education and work experience. Before I understood that, I always felt like a deer in the headlights.

Yes, completely get this -- my son was asked by the school yearbook folks "tell us something no one else knows about you" --- when what they really meant is , something that "few people" know about you --

seriously, if literally NO ONE knows this thing about me, well maybe that's the way it should be.
Of course he gave some deep, introspective answer that sounded vaguely depressive and the school counselor had to call me up and tell me what he said, althoug she herself said she wasn't worried about him at all.
SIGH.
Well after hearing the question, I was like, yup, maybe someone should edit the questions for the kids with less understanding of when to edit for themselves.

Yikes.