The boy who used to be his friend for the last two years has moved on to being friends with boys who don't particularly like DS. I don't exactly blame him, as he has been accepted and my child hasn't and he is quirky too.

Last week I drove for a field trip, and I watched as they asked kids to get together into groups of five. My son (who was standing next to the boy that I had driven in my car and that I have orchestrated playdates with trying to create more friendships for my son) suddenly became invisible. I watched as the kids all paired up, even as my DS was saying, hey can I join? I'd like to join… they turned their back on him like he wasn't there (not in a mean way, in a we don't even know you exist way).

He gave up on that group and started looking for his (unbeknownst to him, ex) bestie who wanted to be with his new friends, who don't like my son. I watched this kid do the most unbelievable dance to keep my son from joining his group. I finally had to ask the teacher to place my kid in one of the groups.

I can't wait for this year to be over.

So, so sorry! I have nothing particularly useful to offer, just all my sympathy.

I realized at Thanksgiving when my son told me he felt he was the most unpopular kid at school that there was a problem and I would have to step in and help him. He understands social skills (we've been working on them since Thanksgiving) but he usually is reading a book or drawing and I think he kind of got sick of hanging around with the other kids who are playing video games on their phones once I took his away (he was googling things I didn't feel were appropriate). He also tries too hard- he was trying to do really goofy silly things to get his friend's attention and I think the other kids basically think he's weird, crazy etc.

He is in 5th grade. He has been having social issues since third grade. He is quirky, and I had him tested for Pragmatic Language Disorder and he understands it and passed their test. I only had him tested because he had had a speech delay and I thought I should make sure he didn't have any residual problem that might be impacting him socially.

ah this was me through primary school. What got me through was girls scouts - I always knew I had a group of friends to turn to even if I didn't fit in at school. Is he in any clubs for like minded kids? Sometimes school sucks.

LAF, I'm sorry to read about your ds' situation - it is very similar to what our 2e ds went through in elementary school. Although I suspect our ds' challenges were different (he has an expressive language disorder), maybe some of our experiences can offer a bit of food for thought.

First thing was to do what you're doing - work with him on understanding social nuances and help by giving him scaffolded support to place him in situations where he has a chance to be included.

Second thing - look at the bigger picture, the environment your ds is in at school. It may be a wonderful school, but if he's been at the same school with the same children for several years, it's possible he's going to have a tough time making progress on social skills in the same environment. What happened to our ds in elementary school was that he started out with two friends in early elementary that all fell in together probably because they mutually didn't fit in with the other kids. As time went by and those two friends matured neurotypically re ability to communicate etc, they moved on to other friends and by 5th grade my ds was pretty much on his own. In addition to not having friends to hang out with, he was acutely aware of the fact that these other children had been able to make new friends and it made him very sad. At the end of fifth grade the combination of several things (all had to do with his 2e issues and lack of support from the school) made ds decide *he* was quitting the school - and thank goodness he did, otherwise his parents might never have seen the light Anyway, we moved him, at his request, to a different school and it made such a huge difference in his life. Especially with friendships with other children and the simple day-to-day social contacts at school with peers. The reason for the difference was two-fold - first, ds had a chance to start over with no track record (and by then we'd started working on speech therapy so he had a better place to start from), and second, and perhaps most importantly, there was just a different culture at the school - it was a smaller school and the teachers cared and the students were genuinely nice caring kind kids. DS continued there through middle school and left with two forever friends - something I doubt ever would have happened at his previous school. They're all boys and their friendship is much different than the friendships my nt dd13 has, but they were still so very important in helping him rebuild his self-esteem and have something that so many of us take for granted in our lives.

I've got more to say but have to leave now to find my dd's skis - argh! Will be back later

Best wishes,

polarbear

Mahagogo5, not only is he in cub scouts but I am his den leader and his dad is the pack leader… the kids in his den are all nice kids, but there's no real connection- most are quiet loner types, while he is the class clown type. He has been in it since 1st grade and has had a good experience.

Polarbear, yes, this is similar to what is happening to him. I asked him today about how he felt when all the kids grouped up and didn't include him and he said he did notice and it made him feel bad. Luckily he didn't notice what his friend did, he just thought his friend's group was already full (I saw what actually happened though).

This is his last year at this school, and I am trying to find him another school for middle school but really there is nothing I have seen that I would want to send him to except for a HG+ school that he has to test into (and I have no idea when they will test him and even if he will qualify). But even if he did get in I think those kids are probably all getting above grade scores and firing on all pistons etc… whereas my kid is shackled by his invisible disability chains…so maybe like putting a tank in a roomful of corvettes in a school where being a corvette is the default. Probably wouldn't work.

OK, found the skis

FWIW, the therapists and evaluators who saw my ds when he was in elementary school did *not* see issues with his pragmatic language - I don't know if it was due to not seeing him situationally or due to them being focused on other issues. As parents, we felt that most of the social issues were due to not fitting in due to his other 2e challenges up until the time he was around 10, and then it started to become obvious from what he was able to communicate to us that there was something more going on. Later on, in high school, he had another pragmatic language eval and was found to have a pragmatic language delay.

Last thought for now - after ds left his middle school where he made friends, his transition to a high school wasn't easy - his friends were all spread out at different schools so he was once again thrown into a pool of students he didn't know, while still having expressive and pragmatic language challenges. The first semester was tough, but what was helpful was being in a program where he was grouped with the same set of kids for most classes, having one elective which was in an area of his passion that had nothing to do with academics, being at a school which allows all kids to participate on sports teams, and having that success of middle school to carry with him - he'd grown into a young man who believed enough in himself to be able to participate on that sports team without ever talking to anyone or making close friends the way the other kids did so easily, he'd found his academic motivation to get him through the hard work of not only challenging academics combined with his 2e challenge, but also the tough work of taking part in class projects and speaking up in class when he didn't feel like he knew anyone or fit in. That not fitting in didn't last past the first semester - having had enough success in middle school to get the strength and stamina to stick it out when faced with new social challenges really made a huge difference. He's doing *really* well now. Still not exactly nt when it comes to communication but he's happy and he's achieving exactly what he wants to be achieving. He's also an extremely kind and insighful and caring individual after having struggled with wanting to fit in for so many years.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Polarbear, I have looked for something like what you are mentioning but so far I haven't found anything that fits. I wish I could custom design a school. I do feel inspired by your DS's story, if he found self esteem in middle school maybe my kid could too. My main criteria for any school is small, similar type peers (must have some quirky kids), and hopefully have a science program since that is my son's passion.

Regarding the pragmatic language test, I had a speech pathologist give him the test, so I feel fairly sure he's okay there. He actually seems to know what to do socially, but I think because this school is a small school (only 70 in his 5th grade) that he's sort of solidified his reputation and he's pretty much done there. On the other hand, he's working very hard to fit in and maybe the fact that he's invisible is a good thing, standing out was one of his problems...

Being in a small school can be really tough because of being with the same kids year to year. What grade does middle school start there? Will he change schools then?

Since you mentioned science, one other thing that comes to mind that helped our ds tremendously was attending a science camp at one of our state universities during the first summer he as going into middle school. It was only two weeks long and was a day camp, but the intellectual level was a huge step up from the camps he'd been able to enroll in during middle school, and it was in a *lab* - he loved walking into that lab everyday and just hanging out with other kids who loved science. There were a lot of quirky kids there too - I suspect a lot of them felt a bit out of place during the regular school year.

I know we've been blessed where we live with choices and opportunities that aren't available everywhere, just mention them in case it brings an idea to mind that might work for others.

Re the pragmatic language test, your ds probably doesn't have those challenges, but fwiw, our ds was tested by a speech pathologist both times. I have a lot of faith and trust in his original speech pathologist who didn't see the issue (at least at first) - she's a great slp, and he worked with her for over 5 years (totally with challenges I'm sure your ds doesn't have), just mentioned it because when he was 10 and first evaluated by an slp, no one saw it. When he was 15 and evaluated, it was very obvious. I'm not sure why the difference in evals, but we've had this same thing happen on other occasions too with his challenges. He was first diagnosed with DCD and dysgraphia, and it wasn't until he'd been through OT for dysgraphia and had accommodations in place at school, as well as maturing just a few years, that anyone (teachers, parents, neuropsych) realized he had challenges with expressive language. He started speech therapy, and it wasn't until around 3-4 years in that his slp started finding additional challenges with pragmatics. I am sure each challenge was there all along, just not obvious because we were focused on other things. The evaluation he had (both times) for pragmatic language delays seems somewhat subjective too, at least not as easily quantifiable as a math achievement test for instance. Ultimately I don't think having or not having a diagnosis is what's important for the social issues for a child like your ds - what's important is having a caring adult (like you :)) watching closely, supporting him, thinking through and finding ways to help him develop the skills he needs, helping to be sure he is included and has social opportunities, and just being there for him so he knows that you care.

Best wishes,

polarbear

For pragmatic language, much of the difference is in expectations. The range of NT development is quite large in children and preadolescents, while a middle/late adolescent is expected to have attained some of the more sophisticated pragmatics skills, so delays in doing so are more significant. You see this happen quite typically in middle school or early high school, when kids with social skills delays get left behind, because their age peers make the leap, and they haven't yet.

On an even simpler level, some of the classic tests for pragmatic language (like the Social Language Development Test) have two forms--an elementary-age form, and an adolescent form, or, start around age 10 (like the Test of Language Competence, now revised as the CELF-5 Metalinguistics, which starts at age 9). The tests given at 10 and 15 may well have been different tests, with more sophisticated and subtle skills assessed on the older form, or the first administration may have been at the bottom of the norms, with a possible floor effect that obscured deficit areas.

The reason the second situation occurs, of course, is because of the first.

That does make it tricky then - I wonder how you would feel about him being in a different pack that didn't have Mom & Dad featuring so heavily? Perhaps a different group dynamic could help too.

I take it the teachers are well aware of the problem - Do they have more social inclusion as one of his goals for the year? It sounds more like he is lacking connection rather than being actively bullied so I imagine the teachers could be of enormous help steering him toward kids who are more tolerant of "quirks".

Best of luck

First of all, hugs, this must have been heartbreaking to witness.
I also think it is important, for both you and him, to realize that a lot of the issues are situational and that a kid that is friendless at one point in school is NOT a kid that will be friendless forever. It does take resilience, and I do not think a kid comes out unscathed, but maybe at some point it may make him more compassionate towards others who are lonely themselves.
Both DH and I have gone through years of being essentially friendless in school (for me, elementary was worst, for DH, middle school). We did have kids in the neighbourhood and kids we were in activities with to spend time with, but somehow school seems to be where being part of the group counts most. So a lot of my hard a work as a parent goes into helping my kids feel comfortable in school.
DS9 was essentially friendless in preschool, did much better in elementary, middle school starts next year and I am already nervous as he may enter a gifted program on the other side of town where he will know no one. The older they get of course, the more they have to take over and find their social groups by themselves. Right now, I still phone parents or families and arrange activities.
Just yesterday, I told DH that every single play date or activity with other kids that my kids enjoy *still* feels like a triumph. It is not enough to just work of social skills and pragmatics (though we do that, too) I have to encourage my kids to ask kids they like whether they want to come play, I phone moms and dads, drive places, completely disregard stuff like homework or instrument practice in favour of my kids spending time with others, and I make sure my kids don't notice the work that goes into it. It's that important to me. I also feel that even if a play date or activity doesn't work out that great, or the kids of the family that we do stuff with aren't perfect fits, they are learning valuable social skills every time they are not holed up with a book or in front of a screen,even though they might have to leave their comfort zones doing it. It is important to me that my kids think of themselves as social beings, who do have friends and do have play dates and get invited to the occasional birthday party. None of them are exactly popular - I know kids who have friends over every day, who are invited to birthday parties every month etc. I'm fine with fortnightly and quarterly, thank you very much, as long as they are socially active.
Sorry, this post is longwinded and disjointed because I am at work and can't focus, but I am trying to make a point. His ex best friend may ignore him in school for a while but might still come over in the afternoons when the other kids higher on the hierarchical scale aren't there. Some of kids who are at the bottom of the scale who only stare at their phones might jump at the chance to make friends with your DS, even though they may not turn out to be his besties. The kids in his scout group may not be his besties either, but at least he is part of a group there. It's a training period - he's been benched, but don't let him quit, withdraw into book or screen worlds, and he may be back on the team either at this school or a new one.

Sorry to hear that your son is going through this. Been there and I understand how tough this can be. I know there aren't any quick and easy fixes. You can't just demand that other kids be his friends.

My son spent part of 6th - 8th grade basically friendless. It was heartbreaking & I really didn't know how to help. At that age mom can't arrange a kids play dates. And honestly my son wasn't as mature as the other kids so I don't totally blame them. I In my son case by 7th would tell me that he didn't WANT any friends. He was actively pushing other kids away even when teachers would intervene. I think this was part a defense mechanism after he burnt a lot of bridges in 6th grade and part simply being uninterested in what a lot of preteen boys talk about in school.

I did put my son in a social skills group at the end of 6th. And it did take till 8th grade for him to start making friends in school again. And at almost (17) he now has friends in H.S. but will never be a hugely social kid. In my son's case the two things that I have felt has helped him socially the most is Marching Band and the summer camp I enrolled him in that first summer after 6th grade. He is also in private therapy and I know that helps.

Thanks all - I really needed the support so I appreciate your help. I've had some time to think about everything and so now I'm trying to look at the upside.

Luckily he has enough going on in his own little world that this isn't as painful as it would be for my daughter (who is very social). And I thought about it and I would rather have a kid who is left out in the cold in elementary because he has big thoughts than force him to conform or hide who he is. He does have poor social skills - but they aren't as bad as they could be and I learned them and he can too. The main problem is that he is at a school where they have decided what he is and so unless he suddenly won a million dollars and started handing out checks his social status isn't probably going to change..but the good news is this is his last year there.

But I appreciate hearing what has worked for you, it's very helpful and I will try to apply anything that might help him going forward. I just want him to find a couple of friends. I want him to have confidence and self esteem. But I don't want him to lose what makes him unique. He is amazing and I am blessed to get a chance to raise this kid. It's just hard when his peers don't see how super cool he is.

Sorry I don't have time to read through this whole thing at this time, but a couple of quick suggestions: have you tried enrolling him in some musical theater group (if that is at all to his liking) or other music group? not sure what it is about these groups but the kids are over the top NICE and inclusive - we did not do this with my son, but I see a lot of kids in my daughter's group who are like him, and well accepted. My son actually had a good connection the other day with one of these older kids in that group, by chance.
Have you considered conventions? video-gaming, sci-fi, anime, whatever your son is interested in. this used to seem 'fringe' to me, but that is my son, a bit on the fringe. he definitely connects with a lot of what is going on at these events. we have gone to a couple and will probably invite a buddy on the next outing. he has a couple of friends that are genuine and reliable, but one of them moved a bit further away, and the other is in another school at this point, so we are looping back through making new friends. He is in h.s. now, and has some good acceptance in his art class, also, thankfully.

Hi Chris -

Well he is a science kid. Being in Science Olympiad has been good for him, and he made one friend (a HG+ child who is two years younger) but no one in his grade (this year our team is mostly girls). I will think about taking him to some conventions.. but he's not really into a lot of animated shows enough that he would want to go to a convention. Thank you though, I will keep these ideas in mind.

Does he play board games? A board game convention might work. Think beyond Comic-con.

yes, there is great variety out there, nowadays!

edited to add:

good resource to get started:http://www.upcomingcons.com/ I didn't think I myself would get a lot out of these cons, however everybody in my family really enjoyed the last one. It was pretty broad, even though it was for 'anime', there were video gaming rooms, board gaming rooms, cosplay (and everyone was very friendly, non-judgemental), and a surprising focus on the intellectual side of all these. ex: japanese culture - we saw panels on traditional myths being played out in modern stories, feminism in anime., panels on body pride via cosplay, art shows, etc., etc. Not just for guys, obviously.