My DS16 starts school in two days. He has known since June that he has had AP Biology homework and was already freaking out about it. He was away at camp and vacation for a majority of the summer. But I thought he had been slowly working on this homework for the past 3 weeks. (He was in band camp for two of them.) Last night at bedtime he tells me in a panic that he still had TONS to do. Seems he has managed to get through not quite 1 chapter out of 5. The job is to read 5 chapters of the end of the book (stuff the class won't get to but will be on the AP) and fill out questions/outline for those chapters.

Over the summer he has become even more stubborn that he will do things BY HIMSELF and doesn't need any help. Very normal for a teenager and I've mostly be happy about this. So today instead of what I had planned I'm going to be babysitting his studying the next few days. The only help he wants from me is to nag him. At least it does seems like he is taking my suggestion of trying to read the whole chapter once first, and then attack the questions. ARGG..

Like in the past part of the issue is his perfectionism and overanalysis of the questions. He claims he needs his laptop to answer the questions. When I snuck a look at the homework I can't see anywhere that he needs outside sources. This is supposed to be a study guide for him, I doubt the teacher will grade this in too much detail expect that it is completed. I'm worried that this will continue to happen in this class and that he would be a lot more successful if he took AP Physics instead.

P.S. And last night I was being amused that he was engrosed in reading "Much Ado About Nothing" after watching three versions of the play this weekend.

Oh dear-- you have my sympathies. I was predicting the rest of your post right about:



Sort of how I anticipated that DD was slowly working, having "stretched herself" to choose a project for English Lit that was going to be a serious challenge...

Instead, she then proceeded to freak out that she didn't know HOW to do the execution of the project...

so she ignored it until 3 days before it was due. While she was otherwise SUPER over-scheduled. Yes, this was nearly an all-nighter, with me yelling at her about what a thoroughly dumb decision it had been to choose "yes, I'll challenge myself" and then fail to follow through, or-- you know-- ask for help.

On the other hand, the final result was SO cool that the professor BEGGED to keep it. {sigh}

Perfectionists-- gotta love 'em. When you aren't tearing your hair out, of course.

HK... is this not normal? I think you are writing about EVERY major assignment I had and what my mother put up with (bless her). I think this must be what people do. ;-)

ConnectingDots, you had me at "he has known since June". DS16 said he did NOT have summer AP work. Then I hear from other parents about it. Yes, indeed, a math packet for...was it calc or physics? He started working on Friday. Forgot how to do a couple of things. Look it up. (Pretty sure half the point of the summer work is to keep them from forgetting how to do stuff) Last night at 10:30 he still had "just a few" to go. Hmmm. I'm pretty sure there was nothing from the textbooks since I would have heard about that book pickup back in June.

It's going to be a long year.

I should have known better. He always worked better under pressure of a due date. Even though anxiety is one of his biggest problems he is capable of harnessing it. He was doing so much better last spring. And in a many ways he has matured so much the past few months. He wanted me to STAY out of it, so I was trying to let him. He was self motivated to find time to study. I could see him sitting there with the book open for quite a lot of time over the past few weeks. Such a waste that he spend so much time "studying" when he wasn't getting anywhere.

At least he decided to stick with the easier Calculus class so he doesn't have tons of summer Calculus homework as well.

And at least he has nothing else that he has to do these last two days before school starts. Just a shame he needs to spend it studying. Although I will kick him out late afternoon to take a bike ride or a run because my experience is a bit of exercise will make it easier for him to keep going.

He wanted me to STAY out of it, so I was trying to let him. .[/quote]

DS was so upset that I'd gotten involved last year, so I did stay out of it this summer. But when the summer school teacher calls ME, well, then I'm involved.

I did let DS know that he doesn't HAVE to take everything AP (well, math he does, because of the course progressions). But HE thinks he does. Expectations and all.

Edit: clearly I need to work on the Quote options.
Edit 2: and on my typing or detection of auto fill.

DS isn't taking ALL AP.. He is only take two Bio & Calculus. He is taking a "lighter" load than many of his past classmates many whom are taking 4-5 AP courses this year. The rest of his schedule is regular English & 3rd year Spanish, band and marching band. (Two courses and a lot of time till Nov.) In the spring a TBD semester course will replace marching band come spring. I'm pushing for a ROP Engineering course. He isn't required to take any Social Studies this year and we are taking advantage of it. His H.S.'s normal school day is 6 periods, but one can take 7 (zero period) if you are taking an art/music course which is he but we decided it's unnecessary.

I'm hoping that this lighter load will mean he has the time to dedicate to the homework in the classes he is in and therefore keeps up the good grades he got last semester. It's a balancing act to try and manage stress while keeping the transcript looking good, while on the other hand not boring him to tears.

Just (((hugs))). We are two weeks in and have already experienced a typical epic fail (DS lost something that wouldn't fit in backpack) and had to trace his steps to find it.

It's a bummer to get these reminders of places that seem so difficult to remediate. Still, I'd cut yourself some slack on trying to give your DS more independence on these things. You won't know if you don't try and we do have to wean them from so much oversight if we want them to succeed as young adults, right?

I think the schedule you describe sounds like a really good balance between challenge and anxiety/EF overload. I'm taking notes...you are a few years ahead of us.

Lots and lots of supportive thoughts in your direction.

How does one decide? The kid tells you over and over that his high school honors classes are too easy. So if the only option that is harder is AP. He is still just a kid with a life after school. So how do you balance the busy work of AP...what is the magic number of AP classes? 9th grade he took one and got a five on his test. This year 10th he is taking 2. I anticipate he will take two or three next year and it is possible to take 4 or 5 12th grade. But is that what he should do?

Depends on the class, but my personal experience was that AP students generally had less homework, not more. I found that endlessly amusing, and always took the opportunity to mention that whenever my friends complained about their homework loads in their non-AP equivalents.

Not true at my DS's school. APUSH particularly is about triple the amount of work of the regular US History. (Depends a bit on teacher) And for a kid like mine who can take a long time to get work done, it's even more aggravating. And this AP Bio class is going to be a huge amount of work. The exception I have found is honors math isn't any more work than non-honors just faster paced and more difficult problems. On the other hand the honors & AP classes sometimes (depending on the teacher) the homework is more optional and matters to a lot less of the grade. And the work tends to be less tedious.

Finding a balance is hard & tricky. Once I found out that my son had such low processing speed and working memory I realized for HIM we really needed to cut back. Other kids who whip through this kind of work (such as outlining the book) can handle more classes.

But what I find funny is that these are supposed to be college level classes...I never once had an actual college classes where I outlined chapters...that is a totally high school thing. College classes said here is the material---learn it!

This was my experience in college, as well--with one notable exception--Education classes. Coincidence?

We have one IB high school and the others offer AP. I remember, at one point, researching IB classes and found there is some controversy about whether or not it's just "more" instead of "better" work. Another thing that is tricky is the students needing intellectual peers. I think my son is less "bored" in classes where there are a lot of other advanced learners, but it's really a social thing as much as an academic one.

It seems to me you've put a lot of thought into the schedule selection--I hope you will keep us updated!

We had many reasons we didn't send my son to the IB high school and kept him at his zoned school. Maybe the classes would have been more challenging but it just didn't work for us to send him there.

It's different types of homework. At our school it partly depends on the teacher but my experience is there are lot more books to read, essays to write in the honors/AP english & history classes.

Day one of school is over. And I'll admit that it looks like English (regular non-honors) is going to be the bane of his existence. It's a brand new teacher and I just read her syllabus. For juniors in H.S. the teacher is going to be checking that all homework is written in the planner for homework points. Really? Not that this isn't a skill my son still needs to work on. But checking planners on all kids in this class for juniors in H.S. really? IT sounds like she is going to post it online, but the kids will be required to copy it down even if they turn it in online. And he is going to be required to take Cornell notes in class also as part of his grade. (UGGG) He is OK with taking Cornell notes while he reads a book, but while a teacher lectures in a boring class???

Calculus is just math.. more of the same. Homework every night but most of the grade is based on test/quizzes. Teacher is good, it's the slower Calc class so it should be easy for him. AP Biology is with one of the best teacher in the school IMO. It's going to be a huge amount of reading (5 chapters in the next 1 1/2), with outlining recommended but not required, with the grade mostly based off tests and 20% on labs and a tiny amount of homework. Classes where grades are based on tests play to DS's strengths so I think he will do well with this. Spanish 3 isn't offered in a honors version and shouldn't be a huge problem.

So while both AP/honors classes could be a lot of work none of it's is useless busy work. This makes a huge difference. Its seems the difference is how much they trust the kids to learn the material without a lot of hand holding.

Problem is they won't let DS into the AP English Literature because of his writing struggles. The stress of the amount of writing in the AP class would overwhelm him and make us all miserable. But in the AP class both the reading level and class discussion are what would make him happier. (The kid read at 3 and is still way above grade level at reading.) He gets so frustrated at the slow speed the literature is read. What frustrates me is our school only has two levels "regular" or AP for English and they aren't willing to consider a independent study for this course.

I guess I'll be tracking down his counselor to make sure someone goes over his 504 with the English teacher. Maybe I can ask for some modifications to do with the note taking.

Back when I took APUSH, I don't remember there being a whole lot of homework of extra homework. No summer reading for sure.

DD15 is taking it this year. She already had to read a history book over the summer that went from 1600s to present. She diligently read 10-20 pages every few days throughout the summer - it was very dull reading. She has been in class two weeks now. The text book is an even slower read than the summer reading. They have daily quizzes on their nightly reading. The teacher has super picky requirements for note-taking. She grades the notes and makes them redo them if she does not feel that they meet her standards. In short, there is a ton of busy work and the class is shaping up to be time-consuming drudgery. DD is frustrated. She already took one AP class last year (her Freshman year) and got a 5 using her own notes. She doesn't feel that these notes are for her benefit. I get the impression that the teacher is making them follow some formula that will help most bright but not necessarily gifted kids pass the test.

It really depends on how the AP or honors class is implemented. At my DS's school it's depends on class and teacher. But it's always more work than the non-honors classes.

Sorry to hear that this class is drudgery for your daughter. I expect your correct and that this is how the teacher has figured out how to get most students a good grade on the AP.

My APUSH teacher gave out, I kid you not, fill-in-the-blanks worksheets as homework. It seemed like only one kid in the entire class had the sense of duty to actually do them, and she happened to be a close friend of mine, so I'd compromise her values by copying her answers just before the bell rang. We sat right next to the door, and sometimes the teacher would walk right in past us, look down to see what we were doing, and move on like nothing had happened.

That AP test was the easiest 5 I ever got.

Modification...Student will demonstrate that he knows how to take Cornell Notes by completing 3 assignments correctly in that format. After he completes those three assignments in the Cornell style, student may choose the style of notes that works for him (as indicated by successful grades on quizzes and tests).

Which is what I think it should be for 100% of the students. You as a teacher like Cornell Notes, fine Cornell Notes yourself silly. Want to share the Cornell Notes love, fine teach it. Have students use it for a week. If they like it, let them use it. If they hate it, let them find their own style. If they aren't getting good grades on other stuff, insist they go back to Cornell until the grades come up.

I think many public school teachers are some of the most misguided, controlling, power hungry, obnoxious people I have every met (used to be one, not a controlling one, and am married to one, not a controlling one).

Somewhat OT...but...I think it's time for the AP folks to stop making claims that their classes are "college level." They aren't.

I can't recall being given summer homework in college. I can't recall having to teach myself the first n chapters of a book in college before the class started and being required to hand in a packet of work on the first day of the semester. I can't recall my college professors ever telling me that I had to "take Cornell notes" or do anything else outside of a lab according to their specifications.

Sixteen-year-old high school kids don't have the executive function skills that 20-year-old college students have. So I sort-of get the thing about checking the planner. But given this fact, how can a teacher then reasonably expect the same kids to self-teach material from different classes over the summer? This draws way more on EF skills than copying down tomorrow's homework. I don't understand. You expect them to teach themselves the first 2 chapters of the calculus book, read two novels for English, and read 3 books for APUSH? All with associated homework and self-time-management? And yet you think they need so much help writing down tomorrow's assignment, you have to hover over them to check?

Huh?

Val,

Sadly 'college level' may have sunk low enough for their claims to be valid in many cases.

Totally appreciate your pointing out the irony in the teacher's approach too LOL

Oh, you are just so right.

To be fair. The teacher DS has that is going to check the planner & require Cornell Notes is for a regular (NOT AP) class. I don't know what the AP Literature class expects as neither of my kids has taken it. The AP Bio & AP Calc class expect a lot more EF from the kids. AP Bio isn't going to check the notes at all for example. The teacher recommends them as without them it will be harder to study for the AP in the spring, but if you can get good grades on the tests he doesn't care.

I agree with you that AP classes aren't college classes but often a high school class & into college rolled together. The way APUSH is taught at my son's school, it's the worst of both worlds. The reading you might find in a college class & college level essays expects AND all the minute detail tedium of a H.S. class checked by the teacher as part of the grade. (Checking note taking, endless quizzes, weekly essays.) Most of these classes IMO are MORE work than a typical college class. The reason the AP Bio class gave summer homework was they won't be able to get through all the material and assigned the last 5 chapters of the book. (Not kidding.. but in the teachers defense it was material that wasn't particularly dependent knowing the earlier material.) I do know the AP board has recently changed the APUSH and AP Bio tests to try and push for more deep understanding and less memorizing of minute details but I'm not sure how that transition has gone. I'm not sure many teachers have changed how they are teaching the courses.

My take is, the summer reading assignments and outrageous note-taking requirements are a natural and easily-predicted consequence of tying teacher job security to children's test scores.

I think it's a natural consequence of AP-for-all, myself. Most 14-16yo teens have no real business tackling college level material.

But if you do it SLOWLY enough, with enough scaffolding and repetition, I suppose you can make most of them look up to the task at a superficial and very basic level of proficiency.

Which is what AP is these days, mostly.

As long as those things are more or less "optional" for students, then the program can still work for the original target population (which is much closer to the kids represented by this board's membership), but otherwise, this is about the wrong approach and the wrong group.

Sure, both things can nominally get the job* done, I suppose... but it's a little like trying to herd sheep using a group of combines rather than a pair of border collies.


* assuming for the moment that the job, here, is to learn {subject} which for many AP students is not the actual goal. For many of them, the coursework is actually nothing more than a year of test preparation.