After a reasonably non-obsessed summer break, am eating metaphorical Wheaties in anticipation of another school year.

One of DS' elective classes in the coming year is in an area of his expertise--it is baseball history. When we selected this class, I was looking through rose-colored glasses but am now trying to view it through a clearer perspective.

DS knows *everything* (hyperbole, but only a little) about this subject already. I imagine he wanted to take it because it provides a social forum to demonstrate his knowledge and discuss his passion.

I'm predicting trouble if this isn't handled appropriately (by DS, that is). It could be an excellent forum for him to practice social skills (not interrupting, not acting like a know-it-all) or it could be a consummate disaster if he offends the teacher. It could be an opportunity for him to focus on the social stuff without being taxed by the curriculum (kind of like kindergarten, except for seventh grade student).

I think I should meet with the teacher, if at all possible, to discuss before school begins.

Does anyone have any suggestions regarding this? I would like to grease the wheels and look for ways to make this a positive experience for all involved.

I'd probably meet with the teacher ahead of time and ask how the teacher handles such students. If this class has been taught for a few years, the teacher almost assuredly has experience with a baseball know-it-all.

Here's what I do from the other side of the desk:

I teach a university class that attracts mostly students who just want to suffer through and get their gen ed credit, but always one student who has eaten, slept, and breathed the topic since early childhood.

It's hard to manage. I schedule my office hours to be immediately after this class.

At first, I label questions or comments that are beyond the scope of the class as such, and tell the student that I'm happy to answer the question after class. I only answer questions after calling on the student when his/her hand is raised. This helps me manage interruptions, and to put off the question so that it's less of a disruption. If I'd answered the question while the student was waiting with a raised hand, I simply state that I'd explained it while the hand was up.

I answer all other questions in my office hours first, then those that are beyond the scope of the class. I justify it as being a matter of responding to needs within the scope of the class first.

I give it 4 class periods. If the student isn't functioning appropriately, I pull the student aside and put the student on a question diet. I ration them to a certain number of questions per period, and I signal the total subtly to the student with my hand so the fact that this student is rationed isn't shared with the rest of the class.

It's a high school class, so my guess is it will be a mix of athletes, history buffs, and baseball know-it-alls. DS tends to do better with older kids so maybe that will help.

Geo--do I recall correctly that your DS has some social communication issues? Do you prime the pump ahead of time, with teacher(s)? If so, what do you use to communicate?

This teacher would not be involved in 504 mtg, I'm sure. I'm not sure how to "explain" DS. Especially because I've only scratched the surface myself, in terms of understanding what drives his errors.

P.S. Did you use the Story Cubes this summer? They are on my wish list. It is a long long list.

On a different-but-related note: math. DS is talented in math but not smitten. He was offensive repeatedly last year by making odd little comments on his worksheets such as: "this problem is impossible" with arrows, and/or adding his own "cute" choices on multiple choice problems. E.g., one problem told a story about "Joe" making an error solving a problem and asked "where did Joe go wrong?" DS circled the correct answer, but added choice D. "Joe does not belong in Pre-Algebra."

He sometimes forgets (refuses?) to show his work but answers correctly. When pressed, it seems he really has no idea how he came up with the correct answer--something along the lines of "it came to me in a dream." Even with my direct coercion, he seems unable to resist the impulse to editorialize on his math worksheets. I have heard varying opinions on this. Some seem to think "show your work" is not that important while others say it is very important, especially if the student is going to excel in higher math or science. I don't think DS will take either route, more likely to be a Lib Arts or Visual/Musical type of career...but who knows.

Metacognition? Very poor.

His math teacher made the statement that even though DS fails to complete/turn in (mostly turn in) assignments, he "somehow manages to wing it on the test." IMHO, most of the time the math concepts come easily but when he hits a bump in the road--NO ability to ask for/receive help. Zero, nada. He had trouble learning slope last year but when older DS helped him, he understood it. Teacher's opinion was that DS decided to learn slope "once he understood why it was important" because older DS explained its importance in building his skills. My opinion is that he really struggled with the concept and didn't know how to ask for help. It seems to me the way the teachers view him is critical--but so far my attempts to shed light have been pretty ineffective.

Story Cubes: DS will now throw a fit if he even sees them, so no, we haven't used them. We've worked on some of these skills through other means, but encountering a lot of resistance. The summer successes are getting him to read fiction he hasn't previously read.

DS' math metacognition is .... weird. It's not clear to anyone that DS has actually learned any new math concepts in school yet. What he does learn (under duress) is how to cast what he already knows into a school-appropriate form. I personally view this as important skills, and showing ones work serves more than just "because the teacher wants it." Our hope is that these skills become more automatic, and eventually he will be able to prove with more that just the right answer that he has intuited math that hasn't been instructed. To me, it's all about being able to lay out a logical argument, which should be applicable to any situation.

We are fortunate to be in a very different situation as you with regards to the school. Yes, I meet with the teachers before school starts because everyone in the school is on board with helping DS succeed and progress on his weaknesses. I'm meeting with the principal and DS's homeroom teacher tomorrow. The agenda is to sort out a few concerns, and to give the teacher a head start on understanding DS. DS is also on an IEP, which gives us a solid frame work within which to address the exact issues you're sorting through: handing in homework with work shown is part of his IEP, and it's separate from performance on tests. Seeking help as appropriate is also an IEP goal for him, under his EF goal.

In your situation, if this teacher seems receptive, I'd ask for a meeting with a collaborative tone: "DS is on a 504. This subject is an area of intense interest, and I anticipate that this class could be an experience where we see a huge amount of growth -- or he can end up irritating everyone in the room. I'd like to meet so that we can figure out a way to make set the year off in a way that he learns appropriate classroom discussion skills." It puts it right out that you know your kid isn't perfect and that you want to work together.

Not bad (I'm sorry but the Story Cubes thing made me laugh--only gallows laughter, but I relate). Our summer "successes" include some very basic hygiene accomplishments and, um, he has Minecraft server now.

Another little laugh about "duress" just because. I wish I understood math better--I probably have an LD. I like the emphasis on it being a logical argument. That resonates. Sadly, DS really has a lot of aptitude in this area...but early in the school year, when he attended a team meeting in which his math teacher stated "DS doesn't like math and doesn't care about it," he seemed to take that as gospel and kept parroting it back to me. All I know is that he *used* to really love math, it was his hobby as a young child. Not sure what happened. He did, in a rare moment of introspection, state he wished he'd understood that when he took the placement test, it determined his...placement. He was in the lower math class instead of HS Algebra, but I had no idea he'd not taken the placement test seriously.

I am planning to ask (again) for an evaluation, but we will begin the year with 504--hope I can manage to have it appropriately revised and implemented. Not relishing the idea of being the 504 Police but I guess I will do what needs to be done. I like what you've shared here regarding goals. We need goals.

I like this a lot, too, thank you. The only thing I think I'll change is that I'm not going to use the word "irritating." Even though it's 100% accurate. It seemed to me that last year, any time I opted for a word like that in my communication--it seemed to open the floodgates for nonspecific, unhelpful feedback, with an emotional undertone. I'm thinking I need to keep it very concrete (ironic, yes?) and describe behaviors that are likely to occur without proper supports in place.

eco, why wouldn't this teacher be involved in the 504 meeting? At our schools all teachers (even elective teachers) are supposed to attend the meeting.


I'd explain as best you can, and then explain again later if something comes up that you haven't anticipated (because that is just what seems to happen with life... and school... and 2e :)).

Best wishes,

polarbear

Baseball history is a subject?

I know right? Mind you I think we have waka building to look forward to...

So far, I've attended two 504 meetings at two schools and elective teachers haven't attended. It's been district 504 coordinator, administrator in charge of compliance, counselor, and core subject teacher(s). I don't know what the rules are, that's just how it's been.



So far my explanations have not been very convincing, anyhow, so I guess the only choice is to keep doing just that! What I want them to understand is that everything is not as it seems with DS. That seems to be the tricky part with 2E.

What is a waka building? Yes, this is an elective in his school. There are several unusual, high-interest electives at the high school level. They take language arts, social studies, math, science, and two elective classes each semester. It's an IB high school, the kids in the gifted MS add more HS classes to their schedules each year.

Wikipedia has everything: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waka_(canoe)

All that's required at these meeting is 1 core subject teacher. I have specifically requested others attend IEP meetings, but this has only been successful at the elementary school.

I'd just as soon there be fewer attendees because I figure they are all annoyed by being there in the first place--so fewer equals less negativity in the room. DS' 504 (so far) has been very simple and low demand-on-teacher. I like to keep things simple and reasonable but am now thinking it should be more specific, since when I'd ask for things that seemed like obvious front-line behavior management to me (outside of 504), they didn't happen.

I would like to take the waka building class...funny that reminds me of an extremely gifted young man I know, with EF issues, who says the best classes he ever took in HS were his tech (wood shop) classes--where he went well above and beyond, was totally engaged, and learned a lot of engineering and practical skills. He learned everything else too easily, including math and science, and spent most of his HS career playing practical jokes and being a general nuisance. :P

I actually also prefer to do a lot of the meetings about DS as one-on-one rather than in the formal meeting setting. The major exception is to have the gifted intervention teacher in the room. She rarely says anything, but her constant presence serves to remind everyone that this is a 2e case.

Your daughter probably wouldn't be allowed to do waka building. But you have a point. I just don't see there being time to do the essentials properly for a reasonably academic student. I went to school when electives were history, geography and French plus hands on stuff like woodwork and horticulture.

I'm also curious why the teacher wouldn't be involved in the 504. My son's 504 meetings in high school have included most of his teachers. Not every meeting but the big one setting it up last year did. The band teacher didn't come as it wasn't necessary, and often one teacher can't make it because of scheduling. When my DD had IEP meeting in high school her art teachers came to at least give a report.

I'm impressed that you school even has a class like history of baseball. Electives are fairly boring at our public school partly because there isn't much time for the kids to take them.

oh yeah my Te ara Maori is not what it should be - still working on Te reo.

To any interested parties - NZ is considered bi cultural so there are numerous opportunities to take electives that involve Maori culture ie: canoe building. **at some schools**

The law for ESE is one regular Ed one ESE teacher minimum....all are welcome to come but one of each has to be there to represent.

The law for 504 is the representative chairing the meeting and at least one teacher. But more can come if available. I find the more there the worse the plan for my son. One chair, one or both parents, and two teachers is the most I want. Once you get seven or eight teachers, gets to be a mess writing the thing.

Parent conference to discuss the plan afterwards is a different story.

Our gifted meetings had one LEA rep (a staffing specialist/compliance person) and usually two teachers one who was gifted endorsed (and usually the second one was too....but I think she was representing regular Ed).

I often wondered why we couldn't do both meetings at the same time...he is a whole kid with two plans....but they said no.

We never had 7 or 8 teachers trying to write the 504/IEP. Usually we had most teachers come in and give a report and get some feedback and only one or two would stay for the writing part of the meeting. Often it would be the particular teacher most affected like the English teacher in both my kids cases.

In our building, we do back-to-back meetings when two legal functions need to be fulfilled. The relevant staff stay for both meetings, and the others rotate in and out.

We didn't have all teachers stay for the entire writing of the report part of the meeting either, but our school required all teachers to attend the meeting, and they were allowed to leave once the accommodations list was reviewed. Some left beforehand, stating that they would agree to everything. The key was that they had to be there to agree to the accommodations (at some point in time) and to voice any objections that they might have - because if they hadn't technically "agreed" it would have caused more of a hassle for the coordinator and student etc when/if the teacher who hadn't been present objected to an accommodation written into the 504. If a teacher popped in for the first part of the meeting, said they would agree to whatever we decided on, then left, they had less ground to stand on in arguing over an accommodation after the 504 is written than if they had never been present or weren't invited to the meeting.

While it's not legal to *not* follow the 504, it is a plan that has to be workable otherwise it simply won't get followed. This is just a for-instance. Suppose you write in an accommodation for turning in assignments via email. One of the teachers isn't present at the meeting. That teacher doesn't want assignments turned in via email, so he arbitrarily chooses not to accept them. It may be in the 504, but he, in turn, can say he didn't agree to that accommodation. Does this mean your student won't have FAPE in his classroom? Not necessarily, because there are other ways to get assignments turned in and accomplish the same accommodation goal - which the teacher *could* have brought up at the 504 meeting if he'd attended. If he had attended, he could have voiced his concern about why email wouldn't work for his class, and offered up a different option, which could have been written into the 504. Probably not the best example, but things like this have happened to our ds.


I haven't found that having more teachers makes anything worse; it helped us because we could avoid situations like I mentioned above. What helped us also was going in with very clear accommodations, documentation of need, and a reasonable expectation that the accommodations we were asking for could actually take place. The actual plan wasn't technically written at the meeting, it was agreed upon and the 504 coordinator drafted it after the meeting was over, then circulated it to us (parents and student) to be sure it reflected our understanding of what was said at the meeting.

polarbear

I've only been to two 504 meetings. The first was very friendly and the accommodations put in place were largely unnecessary. At that time (DS was in fourth grade, I think), the 504 coordinator said it was important to consider this document would also go to MS, and wrote it with that in mind.

The second was called by teachers mid-year last year and was kind of awful. There were eight of us crammed into a small office, not around a table, couldn't even look at each other to discuss. It seemed the reason for the meeting was to remove what accommodations were currently on the 504 (and not being followed). The 504 Coordinator didn't allow that, and in fact added things--while explaining that these were "very standard" for ADHD to the teachers. The only thing I could think was that the teachers were obliquely trying to give DS the boot. I could be wrong, perhaps they thought he was intentionally being a pain in the neck and didn't need special treatment.

DS' 504 is inadequate but with a few minor tweaks will help keep his head above water. It is very low-demand on teacher. The only things the teacher is asked to do is accept assignments via email, extended time for incomplete/missing work, check his planner, and respond to a weekly check-in email from me.

I would like to add some things based on some unfortunate situations last year, that are also low-demand on teacher (IMO). I think it would be difficult for a reasonable person to argue with these: preferential seating, no screaming and threatening DS in front of peers, a quiet place to test, and maybe a pass to counselor as needed?

(Basically--he needs a behavior plan. His behaviors aren't extreme but in aggregate cause trouble.)

The more I think about it, the more obvious it seems that he needs an IEP with goals and some support. Ideally, the accommodations would be things he needs in place NOW while we work toward more independence on managing his schoolwork. I think he can learn to do these things, but he is delayed in EF and needs help learning them, in context.

I will make a third attempt to get educational evaluation this year, but for now we need 504 and it needs to be implemented consistently.

Getting teachers to implement it consistently is going to be a constant battle. Implemented a 504 at the beginning of last years for DS16. DS's English teachers (of which there was 3 because of maternity leave issues) ended up following the IEP and DS ended up with a good grade in the class. The other class it majorly affected was history. That teacher never came to the meetings, didn't really implement the IEP because it didn't fit with the way he did assignments/graded the class. Even after small meeting that included his counselor he never had any accommodations.

We had back-to-school night last night, but unfortunately were not able to get DS' new schedule--so I don't know who his teachers are or if the baseball class is happening this semester or next (I'd forgotten it's a half credit).

504 mtg is set for the 24th and it sounds as if there will be more school personnel there and fewer teachers. Overall--this seems like a win. I've been a bit more assertive than last time and specifically asked for several things to be addressed ahead of time. 504 coordinator stated she is hoping to have special ed process coordinator in attendance and also school psych. I have never interacted with the school psychologist...and hope this means something positive is going to happen.

Appreciate all the advice. I just want DS to be reasonably successful in school. The idea of having to constantly monitor everything is...overwhelming.