Not exactly news for people on this forum, but it was new to me that there is a higher incidence of E in gifted population:

http://theconversation.com/intellectually-gifted-students-often-have-learning-disabilities-37276

With the article mentioning 14% of gifted being identified with learning disabilities, as compared with 4% of the general population being identified with learning disabilities... it is possible that the higher incidence among the gifted population may be partly a function of taking a close look at the performance (and performance discrepancies) of these children... whereas the performance (and performance discrepancies) of mainstream children may not be examined.

Agreed. Kids need to stick far our of the bottom of the box to get testing provided by the school board (at least here). Otherwise it is up to parents to do it which means that only the kids who's parents A) can afford it, B) know a bit about how the system works (or who research it), C) know what LD's are, D) think that there is enough of a mismatch between the marks and potential will actually bother to do it and E) think that the school will do something with results. I have friends that assumed the school would be on top of everything and their kids were much older when they finally tested privately and found out (this was me hinting for a couple years...). Other kids aren't even that lucky and never get tested.

In grade 1 DS was getting low marks and not completing most of his work at school but then coming home and begging us to read Death By Black Hole (Neil deGrasse Tyson) to him at bed. This was such an obvious difference it was impossible to ignore. If he had been begging for us to read him something more average we might not have questioned his school performance and assumed he was low-average. If we as parents hadn't both breezed through school without breaking a sweat we might not have questioned low performance. If we were new immigrants and not familiar with the system we might not have questioned. I'm sure there are a lot more if's in there as well but that is a start.

For us, it was the extreme "out of sync" behavior- we started with an IQ test, then a neuropsych and language testing a few years later.

DS was solving shorter math problems years above his age, but was melting down over much easier problems that contained more words/ steps. We discovered ADHD and language impairments.

When an eight year old can remember 48 digits of Pi and all of the elements on the periodic table-- yet have to be told literally ten times to "please get dressed" and "please focus on what we need to do right now" it could be a twice exceptional situation.

Unfortunately, I'm on my iPad so can't paste, but there is an article on SENG about twice exceptional children. It's written by a neuroscientist- I thought it had great information and described the consequences to the child.

We're dealing with a situation now where I feel DS is being held back on harder concepts due to his carelessness. It's having the unfortunate effect of de-motivating him toward his favorite subject (math). We're going to diplomatically introduce the concept of scaffolding during our teacher conference.

I'll always remember DS's kindergarten report card. One line said that he is working on his multiplication and division and the next line said that he still needs to work on cutting with a scissors and getting glue out of the bottle without making a mess. In his case it is dyspraxia/developmental coordination disorder. He is now 8 and can tell you about World War I but forgets to kick his feet doing the backstroke. You have to tell him literally every 2 seconds "keep kicking, keep kicking". DD9 can read at a very advanced level but can't write a story. She can understand complicated word problems, algebra, etc. but forgets 8X7 (or it takes 20 seconds to recall). So I have two 2e kids and have dealt with amazing ignorance from people in the school system (as well as people who have been helpful). That's a good article to share with people who need a little help grasping the basics of 2e.

Totally unscientific but various GT teachers my kids have had estimate that closer to 30% of kids in their dedicated GT classrooms have some sort of LD though many of them are not identified formally. Maybe the 2e kids don't fit as well in the regular classrooms so their parents are more likely to look for alternatives??

Two thoughts:

1. Keep in mind that the definition of LD has historically required average to above average overall intelligence, which means that the average IQ of children with LD will by definition be higher than that of the general population.

2. There is data to suggest that the further one is from the mean, the more intrapersonal variation there is. (Hence, splinter skills and savantism in the intellectually-disabled population.) This kind of variation in the right-hand tail might look like LD.

Given the difficulty of identifying 2Es, I'd mistrust the data. The author herself appears to be working in a context where there are problems with identifying students appropriately.

A GT teacher of thirty years' tenure at our elementary noted that she had never been to an IEP meeting (until ours).

The Process Coordinator at DS' school told me they have "almost never" had a child with an IEP in the program.

Since selection for the program is based almost entirely upon GAI from WISC-IV, it's difficult to believe there's not been another child who needed one, whether or not the data from this article is accurate. No matter what statistics are used, wouldn't there be more than JUST MY SON with 120-ish students (grades 6-8)enrolled each year?

And one more thought: much of the research on GT/LD actually uses GAI or FSIQ of 115 as the cutoff for "gifted" or advanced...

I am wondering how to "educate" the educational team without coming off as patronizing. I am pretty sure the general consensus is that this program is not for students with learning and/or behavioral challenges...if that is the case, though, I think they are not using appropriate identification methods. I'd have had no idea about that if not for this forum, though, since I didn't understand IQ tests at all and still have a quite limited understanding.

What I mean is this: if selection is based on GAI and not FSIQ, does it follow they are going to have a different group of students than they would if FSIQ was used, instead? And if the program is essentially acceleration in all subject areas (they basically skip grades 6-7 and go directly into 8, but not "on paper"--they still do three years of MS, adding high school classes each year), wouldn't it also follow that many students would struggle with the EF and social maturity required to succeed in this model?

I recently heard through the grapevine that kids bottoming out and flailing about is rampant in the program...but nobody talks about it. I'm hoping to learn more about that soon.


I thought this article might be a good place to begin, with the teachers, but am now rethinking.

Sounds like there might be a lot of stealth dyslexia or otherwise compensated LDs which make a 2e kid look average/lazy/smartbutscattered...

That's my thinking, too. The worst part (to me) is that not succeeding in this program might cause a child to question their intelligence instead of realizing there are specific skill deficits needing support.

My DS began the 6th grade year horrified when I told him he was likely to be somewhat "average" in the program but quickly adjusted his expectations downward as his failure to assimilate progressed. I can't decide whether that is good or bad.

When I told him he is on academic probation next year, his response was: "Well, I'll just have to work REALLY hard." In a way, I'm glad this is his response; however, I don't think he even understands what he means by it (since it's school-speak, really). I think he was working pretty hard last year just keeping himself together. At least now we have a better idea exactly what he needs to "work hard" toward.

Yes, 2e kids are one of the most underidentified portions of both populations of exceptionality (gifted and disability). Consequently, GT programs both underselect for 2e kids, and misattribute disability-related presentations to motivational causes.

I think programs like this are setting kids up for anxiety issues, giving up, etc. DD was in a program like this. The teachers claimed that it's not a problem to be "2e" (I asked ahead of time), but then they did very little to follow the 504, give her the structure she needed, etc. They gave 4th graders middle school work, but also expected them to have the EF ability of a middle schooler. Maybe many do, but many don't, esp. the 2e kids. It was the same sort of selection system--basically cognitive testing (and they add in reading/math achievement test results). I do think 2e kids should have access to gifted programs, but unfortuantely most programs do not seem to recognize the need to make modifications for these kids, and then the kids either flounder or get stuck in classrooms learning material they already know.(In our case we took DD out and put her in a school with "regular" kids but they cluster by ability, mixing up ages, so it ends up being a much better fit).

I wonder if this is even more true with kids who are easily identified as gifted (because strong academic skills) but have more subtle/tricky challenges (social communication, for instance). My current working hypothesis is that my son is difficult to spot because he's *not* math/science oriented (so doesn't present as stereotypically "geeky"), has mainstream interests (sports), and is extroverted/gregarious in social situations (not so much at home). He does not read as "anxious" but is quite anxious, and is overstimulated very easily in social settings.


Agree, especially about anxiety. I also think it's interesting that anxious children do not always seem anxious, in the way we imagine as adults. I'd prefer DS was in a school like you describe--but at this point it would be such a logistical nightmare, not sure how it would work. I think your DD is younger...this secondary school thing is so complicated. We chose the wrong program, but I had "drunk the Kool-Aid" and thought it would be perfect and appropriate for my DS.

She was grade accelerated in K before anyone knew she has ADHD and other issues, so she went into this program at age 8 in 4th grade and was handed an 8th grade math textbook (based on test scores), which she was pretty much expected to do by herself, in class. If we had kept her there, I would be working my butt off to teach her right now, because she would be going into h.s. Algebra I (again, basically teaching herself in a "flipped math" model). The teacher would have the kids write 8 page research papers on various countries or states....paper after paper, and if she found out a kid got assistance she freaked out and threatened the kid with an F. DD loved the science curriculum which was very hands on (robotics, etc), but in the end that's all the program really had going for it in terms of meeting her needs. I think that as long as you can get the teachers to follow some sort of plan (IEP, 504), you are on the right track. I failed dismally in this regard, since everyone pretty much refused to acknowledge a learning difference/disability and claimed she had to be failing before anything would be done. Kids in the program she was in, are by definition "advanced".

I kinda got the same bit about failing, but even so, that wouldn't be enough for IEP since it's a "choice program" and he's not entitled to be there.

Yes, I hope we can get a better system going re: 504, or ideally, an IEP. Not holding my breath on that one, though.

That program sounds like a nightmare for a young child. I miss our old, one day a week, non-graded GT immersion program. Depth not breadth, fit my DS much better.

It sounds like you've made a wise decision for your DD. It seems to me like the "dismal failure" was not yours...can't believe how different each situation/school/district seems to be. I wonder how much of it has to do with the geographical location/demographic of student population. Even with a degree in this stuff, I am woefully underprepared to deal with a 2E child in secondary education.

So right about the anxiety! My DD's teachers had no clue she was anxious until we told them. Even then, they told me they noticed nothing in class. She is very good at hiding it in public...

Yes - this! Fortunately for us, the school ID'd DS as GT (in SK) before we had any clue about any other E. But in his first gifted (Canadian) IEP application they put in things like "needs to work on perseverance and rising to challenges". Now that we know a bit more about things he struggles with, it makes some sense that his teachers would feel like he was just 'giving up' on things they felt he _should_ be able to do.

I admit that I found it puzzling as well - here's a kid who _can_ read well above grade level but refused to complete the assigned grade 1 reading homework with me; was asking to be put at a higher level for the computer reading program (Raz Kids) they had access to, but then refused to use it after a couple of attempts. Now that I know about his vision issues, it makes sense. But just telling him he needs to 'persevere' would not be at all helpful. And the teachers were telling me everything was 'age-appropriate', so...

Teachers would always tell DD to "make better choices" and lecture her, while ignoring the fact that it was literally impossible for her to focus in that very chaotic environment. I asked if she could be removed from class to work in a quiet room for at least some activities (like tests) and that request was met with blank stares. The teacher suggested she go sit by herself in the hallway (also noisy and chaotic). They were trying to force her to adapt to the situation instead of changing the environment for her and other 2e kids who were having similar difficulties.

DD basically just started shutting down, started asking questions about why she was put into such a high math level, stopped trying, claimed that she couldn't do things, lied about the work, etc. She didn't appear obviously anxious either, she just looked either really unfocused or like she wasn't trying. Most kids that age aren't able to recognize that they are feeling anxious.

blackcat: Did you lecture the teacher about making better choices on how to respond to your DD's needs?

That teacher could not produce a single sample of independent writing from DD (that was more than 2 sentences) but insisted that DD is fine and that a lot of gifted kids have poor writing, she would grow out of the problem, and no services would be needed. Meanwhile she would tell her to go home and write multi-page research papers. In the eval that I made the school do, there was one short observation in that class and the report states that the teacher lectured DD about how she needs to get on task, and DD burst into tears. And the school didn't think this was a problem? My blood boils every time I think about that place.