Never a dull moment.

Yesterday, teacher sends email saying DS has detention tomorrow for excessive talking, blurting out, etc.

When she told him he had detention, he responded with "it is only 15 minutes of my time." The last time he was assigned detention, he was hysterical...so *I* (thinking I was being helpful) tried to help him with perspective, by explaining it is not the end of the world, and is only 15 minutes of his time.

She perceived his response as flippant--which I understand. I am not sure how to teach my son not to say things like this to his teachers. He does not seem to have any understanding of how to interact without being offensive.

Any advice? It seems like he needs direct instruction on every possible scenario--what to say, what not to say, how his behavior is perceived, etc. When I try to talk to him about these things--his underlying cluelessness becomes more and more apparent.

Maybe the teacher could be the bigger person and show grace? And you can explain about not saying things like that to teachers.

Indeed. That is how we roll too.

Eco, you are doing a fantastic job, and so is DS. There are just some more things to learn.


I think of this as a May Problem. The teacher is ready to be done and short of patience. Also probably has no idea that there could be a disability involved, OR knows but is too tired to care.


That WAS helpful. These coping statements one makes to oneself are the single best way of managing anxiety. I use them all the time. Over time you can teach DS to use them in many different situations-- they work beautifully.

The only problem was saying it out loud. Gotta work on saying it in the head instead.


Yep. He can learn to do this.

We worked on "when you have annoyed someone who has authority (teacher, police officer), the only thing you can really do is apologize and fix the problem."

We learned the four-part apology that floated around the internet a while back:
--say "I'm sorry"
--say why ("I talked too much in class.")
--say why it was wrong ("I know it annoys you when I don't stop talking for a while.")
--talk about the future ("I'll try to control myself better in the future"); fix the problem if possible

The idea here is to know how to take action to fix the relationship when you've annoyed someone. He took the good, necessary step of coping with the consequence but didn't know to repair the relationship. The 4-part apology is a rote-like strategy, but useful in so many situations and helps everyone in the situation feel better.

If you make a lot of mistakes, it is worth while to be an expert apologizer.


You are doing a great job identifying the problem and I am so impressed that he could deploy the coping statement after one conversation. He has the perfect parent for him (you). You both are going to get there.

You could explain to him that this is about mismatched expectations on the part of the teacher, how when an authority figure resorts to discipline, the primary reaction they're looking for is some sort of humble contrition, and anything else suggests they're doing it wrong, and need to find another button to push (or, in the case of the teacher, react with powerless anger)...

... but if you do, you've also just given him a tool to use against YOU.

I'm pretty sure most kids figure this out by their early teens anyway.

There was a story (I believe in Aesop's fable) about a tortoise and the birds.

Once upon atime, a tortoise lived in a lake. He was very friendly and he was friends with many animals including birds who came to drink water from the lake. One summer, it was so hot and the lake was getting dry. And two birds who came over to drink said to the tortoise that there was a large lake several miles away but it was too far for him to walk. The tortoise had an idea. He asked the tow birds to carry a stick and he would hold on to the stick with his mouth and that way, they could take him to the new lake. The birds agreed and they flew the tortoise over. On the way to the lake, they passed a small village and when the kids saw them, they cheered and praised the birds about how smart they were and how they thought outside the box, etc... The tortoise got quite angry because it was his idea. So, he opened his mouth to protest. You know what happened after this....

The moral of the story is some of the things you say may get you in trouble. Sometimes, it is wise to keep it to yourself.

Sometimes, I would change the contents a little bit to get the moral that fits the situation. (Sometimes, I had to do it because I do not remember all the detail) And change the wording like talkative to friendly, etc.... so that it is more palatable.

Hope that helps.

Some may say this statement has the potential to further disrupt the student-teacher relationship, as it may seem to blame the teacher's "annoyance", rather than demonstrate an understanding that the student's actions disrupted the class, interrupted the teaching process, or distracted others from hearing.

I am so grateful for all of these responses. I talked to him today about how it is his best interest for his teachers to have a positive view of him. I asked him if he knows what "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" means...and he did.

Funny--I had already encouraged (actually bribed) him to approach this teacher with an apology. I told him I would reward him for "risk-taking" and making himself vulnerable.

He stated (and this is true) that it does not bother him to apologize, but it bothers him to apologize to *her* because she is so easily offended. When he told me the whole story, I understand his perspective. He blurted out the correct answer to a math problem when no other student had it correct but the teacher was refusing to call on him because he was "acting like an orangutan" (he demonstrated the behavior and yes, he was being ridiculous). But at least he was on task and engaged, so I'll take that (little mercies).

I told him I am still challenging him to stretch himself by demonstrating an ability to understand her perception that he was a smart-alek. I really don't like to encourage Machiavellian behavior because his (brutal) honesty is one of his loveliest characteristics in a lot of ways...but he just *has* to learn that there IS a game, and up his "charm factor" a little.

The teacher knows he has ADHD and med issues, and that we are seeking further clarification. However, at one point I asked all of the teachers if they see his EF as the biggest issue (so I could communicate with his therapist), and she responded by saying NO, that was not the issue...and then listing a number of behaviors that are all governed by EF.

I have given up on anyone understanding him at this point. I offered him either a very fancy frozen custard treat OR a steak if he can muster the courage to apologize to the teacher. He said, "you really think you can get me with BEEF? Well...you might be right."

I am so excited school is almost over.

This does help, a lot, thank you! The problem with finding a social skills group is the only ones I know about are for kids who have pretty severe cognitive and/or behavioral issues and that's not what we're dealing with at this point. There needs to be one for highly-verbal kids WITH their peers. My son is quite sweet with younger children and wonderful with adults. It's interaction with his own tribe that seems to cause most of the problems.

I guess, technically, it was one conversation but it was a verrrrrry long one. The first time this happened, he was in total panic/meltdown mode (it was a joke about points on coordinate planes, that time). I kept him home from school and spent the day deescalating. These two detentions have both stemmed from the fact they use a token economy system and he keeps LOSING (literally) his currency so doesn't have it to pay when he needs it. So a relatively small offense can result in what seems to him like a major consequence (detention). THERE IS NO MORE OF THIS SYSTEM NEXT YEAR. Whew!

I will say there has been a certain amount of relief in conceptualizing this as a social communication problem (duh!) instead of a personality issue. I can't believe I didn't realize it before, to tell the truth. I think a huge part of the problem is that he appears to be so verbally mature and the entirety of his issue just didn't reveal itself until this year.

In this case, I think it WAS her annoyance, which is pretty evident in her communication. Oh well. My new mantra: they don't have to like him. :P

I can't imagine having so little patience with children but I'm an odd duck, apparently. I've taught from 1st-12th grades and don't recall ever being so irritated by a student who was excited about the subject, even if they acted silly about it. Live and learn (my other new mantra).

My DS8 has some social skills deficits that we are addressing through therapy. It is helping him to understand that "other people have thoughts about what we say and do." So basic, but he really did not *get* this concept until social group therapy.
He can come across as argumentative, defiant, disrespectful, or bothersome-- and it was heartbreaking because he's not truly oppositional and so.... wants to be liked and valued.

The social therapy is helping him to understand *why* other people react to him in negative ways, and he's starting to be able to adjust his behavior accordingly (the second part will be a long work in progress). Before, DS just did not understand why people weren't onboard with his agenda or why teachers and peers did not appreciate his blunt honesty. For instance, when he did not begin a class assignment on "what I learned my field trip" because "he already knew the stuff being taught, and he didn't learn anything." (literally, he said this to his teacher).

All of this is sadly familiar. I begin to wonder at myself, sometimes, because I can't argue with the logic of "didn't learn anything" when it could be true. It's almost like we have to raise them to be dishonest/manipulative.

My son's art teacher gives them worksheets where they are to respond to various famous paintings, similarly subjective. In response to questions like "How does this painting make you feel?" he might answer, "This painting does not make me feel anything." In that class, at least, the requirement is just that the student writes a complete sentence.

He's tried a little to up his game by writing things like, "It makes me feel sad." But I don't believe him--and those answers seem sadder to me than the honest ones.

It dawns on me slowly that the reason the teachers have been unable to give me specifics re: behavior this year is because it is a sort of non-specific issue, hard to quantify.

cammom, I don't mean to threadjack, but what kind of social group therapy is your son in and how did you find it?

So you know you are not alone:

DS7's class just finished a month of study on the ocean. I happen to have a degree in oceanography, and we've always spent a lot of time loving and learning about the ocean in our family. In class, the kids were to create a book about the ocean. DS did a nice job.

The book was to be given a dedication. Here was DS's touching, but then ... urgh ... dedication: "This book is dedicated to my Mom because she taught me everything I know about the ocean. I didn't learn anything in this book from class."

Saints be praised - Teacher thought it was funny and acknowledged t was probably true!

Hang in there everybody,
Sue

They don't think it's so cute when the child is 12 instead of 7... ha!

Well, no, just to be careful what they say to whom. Everyone has to do this if they want to live in society; people with poor radar have to be extra careful.


I hate these.

We are working with DS on "your response does not have to be true, just has to meet the requirement of the assignment." This helps some.


Social skills business is something for which most people have no vocabulary. But you're building good skills.

And cammom, that social skills class sounds terrific. There is an Australian curriculum that does this too (Secret Agent Society).

My son did a social skills group in 6th & 7th grade that was with other very verbal pre-teens. It was through a local university and for kids with Aspergers and ADHD. But even though DS hasn't been diagnosed with either they accepted him into the program because he was having acute enough social problems at the time to qualify. I feel it did help. It was for kids who were highly verbal and one of the other kids was HG and taking H.S. math and wanted to talk about nothing but math & computer programming.

Not sure where you would go to find a program like this. The program my son went was attached to a ADHD center at a local university. It's probably easier to find if you are in a large metropolitan area. This group was specifically for pre-teen BOYS. They did a lot of playing board games and word games and it didn't feel like therapy to my son.

On this: we've had conversations about the possibilities of learning in any given situation--not necessarily what the activity or class claims to be teaching you, but -something-, whether it is about yourself as a human being, or understanding other people's perspectives or feelings, or about systems and institutions--so that there is always an attitude of exploration and openness. We're trying to raise reflective, self-aware individuals. And a nice side effect is, boredom is less of a problem, because you can never completely figure out another human being.

I think that's a great attitude to cultivate.

Good point. I have been considering teaching him about Socrates drinking the hemlock because he thought it was his social/moral obligation. Then I thought that is a little overwrought, perhaps.
I do, too. I hated them even as a child. And I *do* detect some oppositional/defiance in his responses because in real life he is very excitable about aesthetic concerns. There seems to be an emotional block of some sort at school.

I think I'll ask him to imagine what the teacher desires from his response. "What would you feel if you were the sort of person who feels things about things like this, at school?" The mental gymnastics are overwhelming. Not sure how to reach him.I don't think we have anything like this near. He is in counseling, now, which I think helps with coping skills but it doesn't help with the social issues because he doesn't behave strangely one-on-one. All I hear is what a cool, interesting, smart guy he is. It's hard to explain this to someone who doesn't see it--I even have trouble understanding bc it's context specific.
This is a lovely frame. I will give it a try.

[spoiler][/spoiler]
DS goes to a speech and language center. They found us during a routine school screening:) they use the Michelle Garcia model. We love it- my son has made good friends with the other children in the group. It came at a time when his self esteem was low-- he finally met some kids he could relate with and who also struggle. He knows he's not alone. I really believe for my DS that whether kids are academic peers or not, he loves to be with people who value him. It doesn't matter to him whether they are talking about video games or physics.

eco- I am probably saying something similar to aeh, but some if my DS's social gaffes arise from inflexible thinking. In the instance of the field trip he could not think past the question that was asked and look for other possibilities. He also could not understand why his teacher seemed upset by his honesty, when he's been taught to tell the truth.
These are big problems for social understanding- inflexibility and empathy. When I say empathy, I'm not talking about decency and compassion- I'm using the word in the pure sense of being able to put oneself in another's shoes during a social interaction. Maybe a better word is metacognition
Social skills therapy can help.

Yes, this all resonates. I've been puzzling over my son for years and it's just now making sense. Part of the problem is that this is all a very different language for me. If I'd just read a list--I'd say my son is "flexible" bc he is a sort of laid-back guy. But this way of understanding it makes a huge difference. Ditto on "empathy." When I've read checklists on autistic traits, I've always denied that my son lacks empathy, because he seems to be a compassionate, loving person. But in the sense he doesn't understand others--this makes sense.

I don't know if the school would provide speech/language therapy for him if he's identified as autistic or other social communication disorder. Is that something that is available, privately? I feel like we need a small grant, to pay for all the things he apparently needs...

eco- If you haven't done so (apologies if I've overlooked this), a full evaluation that involves a full language evaluation would be helpful. My DS has had a neuropsych for ADHD, but prior to that he underwent a full speech and language evaluation (including two school evaluations). It identified deficits in social understanding. In fact, it was the language evaluation that prompted us to seek a neuropsych because I suspected DS had ADHD and it was contributing heavily to his social issues.

I was shocked to learn that a kid in the 99th percentile of verbal reasoning could have language impairments, but was told that these skill sets are different. Anecdotally, ADHD, language deficits and a gifted IQ can look like HFA, enough to one wonder. In fact the language evaluation and neuropsych both completely ruled it out.

If your son has language deficits, social skills therapy and speech therapy can help.

So far, I've not managed to convince SPED to evaluate him. He is having a neuropsychological evaluation on May 12 with a psych whose special interest is gifted/autism. I hope it helps. I don't know if the district will automatically evaluate if I provide medical diagnosis. They have not been very responsive so far.

I think my son is probably "hyperlexic" if that is a real thing. This has probably not helped anything. His school performance (both grades and standardized testing) have been strong, up until this year--first year at MS and he's fallen apart. Almost entirely EF stuff. I haven't seen any evidence of struggles with rigor (it's a FT gifted program, but really just acceleration). I asked the district if I could see his subtests on IQ but they are not forthcoming (was thinking there might be something there).

I don't see any evidence of a SLD in language (he is a prolific writer, speaks well, etc.) but the thing is: I don't know ANYTHING about language delays. His seems social. Is that a SLD?

I honestly don't know what it takes to get a full evaluation from the school district. 504 coordinator did intervene and ordered OT evaluation, but it was pretty much a token exercise, not substantial.

I'm blathering now.:) I just had a really strange conversation with my son on the way to school, in re: the detention, etc. This is how it went:

DS: Once the teacher explained to me what I was doing that got me in trouble, I was okay with it. She asked me if I care about detention, and I said no, I truly don't, because it's a piece of paper.
(He explained that since it was reasonable, it doesn't bother him anymore).

Me: Do you feel embarrassed when these things happen in class?

DS: No, for some reason embarrassment isn't in my data bank.

Me: Well, maybe that's good. It keeps you from feeling upset.

DS: I have been researching autism online. [This one surprised me--I haven't used that word, exactly.] I see that I have a lot of these traits, but the thing that doesn't fit is that I am not social awkward and I love meeting people.

Me: Well, that is a stereotype. I lot of people with autistic traits don't have that issue.

DS: I hope I am not autistic.

Me: If you have traits, it just helps us understand you better and know what to put in place to support you. It doesn't change anything about who you are.

DS seemed completely satisfied with that response. His language is so different from mine. Everything filters through cognition.

I guess I hope he doesn't have autism but he has enough related issues that it's probably the same difference. I hope that having some sort of solid diagnosis helps me with the school.

I am sorry I'm using this forum as my online journal. It's difficult processing all of this. Seems very sudden--but I guess it's not, really. We've just managed really well until now.

Eco I am glad you have a place to share what is going on with your son. I think you are really on the right track here. He is lucky to have you for his mom.

Did you put in a written request for a comprehensive eval? You can detail your concerns in this letter. Put in specifics about how you think that his educational performance is being impacted by a suspected disability. I would address it to the district special ed director. Make a copy and see if the secretary will date stamp it as received and make a copy after it's date stamped. They HAVE to respond (within a certain number of days like 10 or 14). Put in your letter that you are requesting a team meeting to discuss your concerns. If they refuse to evaluate him, they need to send you a prior written notice stating that they are not going to evaluate him for X, Y, and Z reasons. If they don't do this, then they are in violation. If they refuse to evaluate him, you can go to due process. Of course, all of this becomes very adversarial and I would try to get them to look at your independent eval before you resort to any of that. We are in a ridiculous district as well and they don't seem to understand or care about even basic laws/mandates. It has been a huge source of frustration.
(google "child find mandate" to get more information about school districts needing to evaluate students with known or suspected disabilities).

I didn't detail anything in my two prior written requests. Over the phone, the Process Coordinator told me basically to make request and then they'd do respond in writing--which they did (refused eval, based on "record review.") I asked her at the time if I had any recourse if I disagreed with their decision and she basically said NO.

I didn't understand much of this at the time, though, so was really just looking for something with more "teeth" than 504, which wasn't being implemented at the time.

I guess my best bet is wait to see what neuropsych reveals, then write a detailed letter? (Unless she decides he is perfectly normal...ha)

I wish I understood what neuropsych is going to do, exactly. I know she said ADOS and possibly WISC-V (I'm going to ask for that specifically, now...the only FSIQ I have is old and also maybe compromised, besides which I don't have the whole thing, just report).

So, if he IS given a more comprehensive/pervasive dx--is school then required to eval?

I am very confident in this neuropsych's diagnostic chops. She worked with two friends' extraordinarily 2E children and came up with two different pictures (neither of them ASD, although it was suspected). The only downside is that what she *actually* diagnosed in one of them (NLD) is not an accepted dx so the 504 is via backdoor ADHD. And also that child has SLD, wildly asynchronous.

I guess what I'm saying is: I have no idea what they are required to do or not to do based on the diagnosis. I'm not willing to just allow DS to completely bottom out (and be withdrawn from program, only to re-experience all this at new school, etc.)

A colleague of mine who works with developmental kids has referred me to a local advocacy group--I guess I'm keeping that card in my back pocket for now. I don't feel able to be effective with the school because they have all pushed so many of my emotional triggers. And I feel like sending my child into an environment where he is universally disliked is akin to abuse. I *know* that is really ME, bc he is less sensitive but I am 100% unable to remove my feelings from this situation (despite making a huge effort).

If they refuse to evaluate, you can go to a due process hearing. Another thing you can do is call your State Dept. of Education (Special Ed division) and ask what to do if your district refuses to do a comprehensive eval. Sometimes all it takes is the State making a phone call to the district, and asking the district what they're doing. If they told you that they can deny an eval and you can't do anything about it, that's completely incorrect information. At this point, you could file a complaint because they didn't inform you of your due process rights.

Since you are already getting an IEE though, I would wait and see what that says. Then you have more leverage to get them to do an eval. They may want to do their own testing, or they could use the outside testing.

Kids can get IEPs even for things like anxiety disorder if it is affecting their educational performance. Don't give up.

I would not keep the advocate group's card in your back pocket - I would make an initial contact with them now. I found having the advice of an advocates group who understood the personalities and history involved in our public school worth it's weight in *gold* when advocating for our ds in elementary school. It's also possible that where you're at, you'll be able to get an advocate's advice free of charge. Be sure to check the yellow pages at www.wrightslaw.org - the group we have in our state is funded by the federal government, and I think there is supposed to be a similar group in each state. (NOTE - I could be entirely incorrect about that!).

Next thing - I'd complete the neuropsych eval and learn everything you can there before taking the next step with requesting anything through the school district. This is for two reasons - the first and obvious reason is that you'll have a better set of documentation to start from. The perhaps not-so-obvious reason is, imo, the more important reason - you need to be sure you're focused on your child's needs for the long term, not just focused on a school battle. Yes, you have to fight your way through the school battle, but what your child needs is the bigger picture - understanding his challenges as best you can, and having a plan for *life*, not just for school. This may sound trivial, but it does make a difference when advocating at school. First, it helps put the school issue in perspective. You aren't just advocating for your child to be able to function successfully in classroom A, you are partnering with the school to help your child progress in an area that will help him be able to navigate life successfully. Second, the neuropsych will probably be able to help you with understanding where the best supports for your ds are going to be found in your community - will he be able to qualify for services at school based on what the neurospych sees/finds, will he benefit from school services or would it be better (in your community) to seek private therapies/services/etc, and if private is recommended, who to go to. The neuropsych will also likely map out a long-term plan for you, whereas a school meeting/plan is going to be focused on what your child needs for school this year and next.

Once you have the neuropsych report and a firm idea of what you want to request in a school evaluation, make a written request with what I call semi-details. State your concerns (behaviors at school, underachievement, whatever), briefly summarize what the neurospych found, and request a team meeting to consider eligibility for an IEP (or 504, whatever you feel is the correct choice after you have the neuropsychs report and advice). You don't need to list detail after detail re what you want the school to look at, but include a brief list that for sure includes cognitive/acheivement testing, and any additional evaluations you feel would be necessary and/or helpful. If the neuropsych recommended further testing (OT, for example or SLP etc), then add that to the list of the assessments you are requesting.

It sounds like the school did nothing "wrong" in their previous communications with you and denial of an eligibility eval for your ds. However, if you provide the school with private testing that shows evidence of a potential disability they are going to be on shakier ground if they outright deny an evaluation without at the very least calling a team meeting to make the decision to evaluate a *team* decision.

You've said you have no idea what the school is required to do - the advocates group can help with this. Even just a phone call might be all you need to help you get grounded in which direction to go, and what move to make. I also found that the book from wrightslaw "From Emotions to Advocacy" was extremely helpful - especially the sample letters that are included.

Best wishes,

polarbear

That is interesting. DS' current 504 is for OHI--ADHD, Anxiety. There is not one accommodation related to anxiety in it, though, and very little to accommodate the ADHD.

polarbear--I like all of your advice. I'm not sure exactly what I'd say to advocate at this point, other than--my son's behavioral issues and disorganization are causing a lot of chaos at school. I guess I produce the email mountain. And yes, the long-view is important.

This is the agency: http://ptimpact.org/
It appears to be funded by US Dept of Ed.

Anxiety is on of the items on my DS16's 504 and most of his accommodations are for his anxiety. I believe DS's High School is very concerned about students who have high anxiety and depression. I believe they are more worried about my son's anxiety & depression than the LD written on the 504.

eco, I am not in your state but the advocacy agency looks very similar to our state's agency.


You really don't need to say much - just summarize the issue: your ds is at __ school, he has ADHD, he's having behavior issues at school, he has a 504 which you feel doesn't fully or effectively address his issues, you've requested a comprehensive evaluation twice in the past and been denied without ever having had a team meeting, you are in the process of getting a private neuropsych evaluation, what can you do next to advocate for your ds at school. You'll most likely find that the advocate will jump in and give you all sorts of advice you have no idea to ask for Just make the call

One thing you might do before making the call though is to write out a timeline/history for yourself to have as a reference point - include issues at school, relevant conversations with teachers, meetings at school, testing/results/etc. It doesn't have to be detailed, just a rough sketch of past history.

Good luck! You're going to make progress -

polarbear