Can a teacher penalize a student for a "504" absence (i.e. deduct participation points? Would it have to be explicitly stated on the plan?

Can teacher deduct participation points for behavioral issues (e.g. excessive talking)?

I guess the nasty art teacher has decided to target my son. After I went in and spoke with him two weeks ago regarding a plan for missing assignments--he has A) given him 24/300 on a major project and B) 1/50 for a daily work assignment.

Both of these were quite late, but he told me he would accept them when we spoke. I guess he didn't think it was necessary to mention there was no point in completing them.

Also: last week, the art teacher sent me a really ugly email about my son's excessive talking. I just checked the gradebook and he gave him 0/40 points for participation last week because of talking on Wednesday, despite email stating he was on task with his project. The teacher was only there one day last week--he had a sub Monday and Wednesday.

So my kid, who is in danger of failing the art class, whose mother has been communicative about the issues he's having--including that we can't get in to psych until May 8 and child is likely having medication issues--is being given NO participation points for last week, despite reported participation.

This is the same teacher who yelled at my child in front of his classmates about "all of the zeros in the gradebook" and told him if he fails, he'll be removed from the program. In front of the other children. I hate people, sometimes.

I've called the principal.

To protect your DS, you should explicitly add language to the 504 to exempt him from certain levels of misbehavior, late assignments, etc. I have found that the kids with issues tend to get in the most trouble when there is a substitute. The regular teacher, in an effort to promote better behavior with substitutes will often mete out consequences based on the substitute's report.

Otherwise, everything that you have mentioned are normal consequences in our middle school. Participation points are routinely deducted for misbehavior. For instance, one of my 6th graders lost 5 percentage points for talking during one single P.E. class such that if he is caught talking during nine P.E. classes, his grade for the quarter would be 55% and thus failing. It is also not uncommon for a teacher to grant a zero for late assignments, especially if they are more than a day or two late; furthermore, the students would still be required to turn in the assignment or risk failing altogether.

It is particularly unpleasant and difficult to navigate when a teacher has taken a dislike to your child or at least your child's behavior. You really have no choice but to bring in the 504 team to avoid a disaster.

I agree you should talk with the principal. It does sound like this teacher does not like your son.

What do you mean about a 504 absence? An absence for a meeting or to be pulled by the school. With a 504 accommodations have to be explicit. And yes a teacher can deduct participation points for behavioral issues BUT they shouldn't deduct ALL the points.

One piece of advice.. Take a deep breath. While it's much better if your son doesn't fail Art. This is 6th grade. What happens if he fails art? In the long run. Will it keep him from being in this program next year? The grade he gets in Art for 6th grade doesn't really matter at all unless it affects his enrollment in honors math or science or English.

Does he HAVE to take art with this teacher? How much longer for this school year. Will he have to take a class with this teacher next year?

504 absence meaning an absence related to his disabling condition. We tell the attendance secretary it is 504 and he gets two extra days to turn in work instead of one.

Yes, there is a possibility he will not be able to return to this program if he fails art. Actually if he does not earn a C. That's the policy--I don't know how seriously they adhere to it.

I am breathing. It is really disturbing to think about my child trapped in a hostile environment.

School is out soon, May 20. This teacher is retiring.

Then this teacher should be accepting the late work and not marking it down. Sounds like you need to get a 504 meeting together with this teacher. My son has an even more vague writing in his 504 that he is allowed to turn in certain types of assignment late if he's had a anxiety attack over it.

What I don't understand is why the accommodation is to tell the attendance teacher. In my school all students get the amount of days they were absent to turn in missing work. as long as it's an excused absence. But since this is special case I would expect you should contact the teacher as well. Does the attendance person actually pass on this information to the teacher or just check it off in a book? And yes in 6th grade YOU should email the teacher, not expect the student to tell them.

Then you need to talk with the principal ASAP.

The sub didn't leave poor report. No points were deducted on the days sub was in room. The regular teacher deducted them, because my son was talking to his student worker.



Those may be "normal" consequences but they are absurd and not child/education centered. Behavioral issues should have behavioral consequences and academic issues should have academic consequences.


Yeah, this is a first for us.

I had noticed in the gradebook that the teacher also deducted participation points for a day my son was absent--and it's coded 504. So that question wasn't actually related to the late work.

Principal already called back! He asked me to forward the corroborating emails to him and APOLOGIZED! Said he hopes we can get everything straightened out and that next year will be better.

I think there are some good things in the current 504 but it needs some serious tweaking. You just never think that people will do the wrong/unsupportive/cruel thing. Or at least I don't...

That is excellent.

I hope this gives you some breathing room, in which you will get the results from the neuropsych, digest them, and decide what they mean for school.

There are various ways of writing goals and accommodations that help ensure clarity and protect your DS. Feel free to PM when you are at that stage.

SO GLAD this teacher is retiring. Whew.

Kudos to you for following through.

DeeDee

If he ends up getting kicked out of the program due to behaviors related to a disability, that is discrimination and you could make a major stink about it. I think it's ludicrous that needing to get a C or above in everything is even a requirement to stay there. That puts a lot of pressure on kids/parents.

I am so glad for you the principal was responsive. I hope that your son has a much better year next year. Stories like this are what motivates me to keep going to get a degree in education so I can help students like your son. He is lucky to have you in his corner!

did the teacher just give him an averaged participation grade for the days he wasn't there? I don't know how I feel about it because I have never heard of a participation grade but I can see a teacher may think it odd that the kid gets his best grades when he isn't there. Why are US schools so punitive about absences? Do they want sick kids to come and share their germs?

Live and learn. Some have found that using precise language and being focused on facts (although detractors may term it pedantic), may create the most easily understood 504s, not subject to re-interpretation which may change intent. These resources share useful information for creating a 504.

Regarding late work being marked down, you may wish to check the class syllabus, parent/student handbook, and/or school policy and practice statements to see if there were statements to notify about this proactively and manage expectations. This could potentially be modified by your child's 504 plan.

You may wish to document the encounter with the principal, including a list of the e-mails which you shared with him. It is not unheard of for an administrator to appear to flip-flop and become rather protective of the system (possibly after the legal department is consulted). You may wish to ask him about such things as: next steps, when he will get back to you after reviewing the circumstances to-date, etc. You may wish to state up-front that your goal is to ensure your child can continue in the program.

I don't know what the rationale is. When my older son had a 504 for OHI (seizure disorder) the teachers weren't allowed to count participation points against the grade when absences were disability related. They didn't give points--they adjusted the total possible. That seems more fair, for any child, to me. Sick kids shouldn't be at school. Absences would create natural consequences, grade-wise, anyhow...one would think.

Thanks, good advice. I knew these assignments were technically "too late." That's why I went in to speak with the teacher, to discuss whether or not he was willing to accept the assignments. I explained that my son is having a rough time and what we are doing to address it. Since he agreed to accept the assignments--I *assumed* he meant he would give partial credit. Not expecting high marks, just hoping to get to a point where recovery (to a C) is possible. I guess, arguably, 24/300 and 1/50 is "partial credit."

It never occurred to me the teacher would print off the assignments, supply materials, and then give so few points it was futile. Particularly on the huge project--which DS lost in transit. Teacher knew he'd worked on it for weeks. I have email saying it was "coming along nicely."

I thought the teacher was being flexible and demonstrating his concern. Evidently, he was more interested in a power trip. Ugly behavior. Live and learn.

Sorry that happened. Many of us have been duped at one point or another by those we believed were making friendly, supportive overtures. You've come to a good place to leverage a wide range of experiences and resources that have helped others and which you may also find helpful.

That's just...gobsmacking. Turns my entire belief system upside-down.

It'll be a lot of fun (!) trying to figure out how to change my approach to one of "assume the worst." I just read From Emotions to Advocacy and haven't identified exactly where I went off track in my communication with everyone this year. I suspect it's mostly a matter of my failing to adjust to middle school. Just like my son!

OTOH--in the case of the art teacher, my gut feeling is we are dealing with someone with some personal pathology. His emails demonstrate a lack of self-control and self-awareness. There is some irony in that.

I have a question and I'm sorry for monopolizing this board.

I'm having trouble getting my hands on the OT report. I've now asked twice directly from the person who did the evaluation. She told me she had already emailed it, then I asked her to email it again to my work. It still hasn't appeared in my inbox.

Where can I get this report, other than the OT, who is not providing it? I feel like that is an important piece since she said there were "differences" but I don't know what they are--only what they aren't (no fine motor and no something-visual). I know next to nothing about sensory issues. Evidently, she's been in contact with the teachers and is recommending "movement breaks" and something else (a timer, I think?) I don't know what those interventions reflect.

Does this seem like a report the neuropsychologist should have? I'm thinking yes. I'm also thinking it would be helpful to me as a parent.

Is 12 too old to get OT services, privately?

Eco, it's a big space and you're taking hardly any-- please ask for what you need.


Since the principal has indicated a willingness to help you, a phone call to that person asking for the report might be the fastest way to get it.


My gut feeling is that they reflect "standard-issue" responses to ADHD and/or autism. Once you have the report, you will be able to see exactly what they are recommending and whether those recommendations make sense for your child.

FWIW: the standard-issue accommodations don't work for all kids, and they are very often misapplied by people who don't know what to do but want to do something. If they don't fit the needs you see (I bet they won't, based on what you've said), you should call a meeting to discuss with the school team.

I see no way in which "sensory" anything will address the social perception mistakes your DS makes.


Of course you and the neuropsych should have access. (The school can't give it to the neuropsych without a signed privacy waiver; but once you have the copy it's yours and you can give it to the neuropsych.)


No. But I would question whether an OT is the right person here.

IME "sensory issues" are far overdiagnosed and often not the central issue they are made out to be. (I once had an earnest OT tell me DS's autism was "caused by his sensory issues.") OTs have a limited toolkit and this particular part of the toolkit is poorly grounded in science.

Whether or not they are working on the sensory issues, they are going to need to do something throughout the school day about the social/behavioral mistakes. I would want a board-certified behavior analyst observing at school, and talking with the teachers about what they see, and helping make a plan to address these concerns.

I think you as a parent have a big role in helping people stay on target-- keep your eyes on the prize, have a list of the most crucial issues on hand, and when people want to steer toward peripheral issues, keep asing about the crucial ones.

Did you fill out a sensory profile (parent inventory)? OTs seem to love this profile but I didn't think it gave us any helpful, definitive information. It would be helpful to see the results anyway, though. It sounds like she gave him the Beery Visual Motor Integration test and/or the BOT-2 (or similar instruments). In terms of DD's "sensory impairments" the report indicated her results were common with kids with ADHD. No one seemed to think much of the results (including the OT herself). It's stuff like DD is looking for visual stimulation, hence will flip through pages of books. It's not like they're going to do anything about that.

If she is not emailing you the info maybe the next step is to say you need paper copies, and that you are trying to collect information for a neuropsych eval? You need info about assessments that have already been completed.

Have you been in contact with the school psychologist? Is she/he as incomptetent as everyone else in the school? It sounds like you need a "functional behavioral assessment". If they actually did a comprehensive eval you could ask for that to be included but it sounds like they don't even know basic stuff at that school. Our school thinks that all they need to do for an evaluation is get a CogAT score on the student, and then look at their grades and computerized achievement test scores (like MAP) and determine eligibility. If the achievement scores are above the 10th percentile (or some other arbitrary point they consider "failing"), the student is not eligible. The school psych has no idea what a FBA even is. She told me that they are not responsible for any testing besides the above, because it's "neuropsych" testing.

Like your school, the OT was more reasonable than anyone else, but the results didn't really matter anyway since DD was not failing anything.

Ask the OT if the school can give parent/teacher versions of the BRIEF for executive functioning. (DD's teacher scores were terrible on this but the school STILL would not do anything).

The most significant thing I can think of that could occur in the classroom, is providing a seat near the teacher and maybe allowing him to go somewhere else (quiet) for tests? Sadly, the two best days of his life at school seem to have been when he went to ISS (3rd grade, and last week). It was so quiet and peaceful! He really likes to socialize but doesn't seem to have any savvy about when to STOP. And switching gears for him is painfully slow.

I agree. I've started an informal curriculum on my own (ha!). For instance--last night was band Spring Concert and the trumpets got off to a really bad start...we have it on video. He played it over and over last night. We were all cracking up about it (well, it was funny! trumpets can make some really strange sounds!)

So I told him that even though it was funny...it might hurt someone's feelings if he teased them about it. I reminded him of something that hurt his feelings really badly, once (a substitute told him he'd be "flipping burgers" for a career. He was devastated). I told him that even though it wouldn't bother him if someone teased him about blowing a bad note, some people would be sensitive to that and it might hurt their feelings.

His response? Well...it wouldn't bother me. UGH. And it wouldn't! He did agree to put the "Trumpet Incident" off the table, as far as joke fodder.

Does that sound like autistic type social unawareness?

Maybe this is manipulative, but I'm not sure I care any more, to tell the truth: I am thinking that having the OT identify sensory issues is kind of a back door into Special Ed. Since there has been no success getting evaluation through the district. I'm beginning to think the only way to keep him in this program is if they are afraid of kicking him out.

I guess I need to find a behavior analyst! I don't even know what that is. There is an awful lot to learn, isn't there?

It's a trick, trying to sort it all out. I agree: it's the behaviors, first and foremost. And secondly, it's his organization/attention. I have a feeling the teachers would be more willing to work on the second, if the first was improved.

I didn't fill out anything, including a consent form! Maybe it was implied when I signed the 504, ordering OT eval?


I haven't been in touch with school psychologist. I plan to ask for the FBA once neuropsych eval is done. But that will probably be after school is out. My son is "almost" failing two subjects, but evidently--that won't count, because his courses are accelerated. Achievement tests are all in the 90-99th percentiles.

The neuropsych gave me the parent BRIEF, and I think she's sending it to school, too. I have to say: I found my answers horrifying. But not as horrifying as the ABAS (I think that's what it's called?) I can't decide if I'm just the laziest parent ever or I've adapted to my son.

I just received the OT report! May have to post to see if anyone can understand it.

Here is some of the report. I guess the sensory stuff is completely based off teacher report. I was hoping there was some sort of formal testing.


VMI Visual Perception Motor Coordination
Raw Scores 29 30 30
Standard Scores 112 114 113
Percentiles 79 81 81
Score Interpretation Above Average Above Average Above Average

Test Interpretation:
As you can see from the above results, XXX scored above average in all areas assessed on the VMI. He only missed one image on the visual motor integration test and did not miss any on the visual perception and motor coordination subtests.

Sensory Profile

Quadrant Raw Score Performance
Registration 39/85 Definite Difference
Seeking 35/60 Probable Difference
Sensitivity 49/80 Definite Difference
Avoiding 50/85 Definite Difference

Section Raw Score Performance
Auditory 26/50 Definite Difference
Visual 21/55 Definite Difference
Movement 37/70 Definite Difference
Touch 44/60 Definite Difference
Behavior 43/75 Definite Difference

Test Interpretation:
According to the Sensory Profile completed by his teacher, XXX scored Definite Difference in most areas of sensory processing. Some of the behaviors pointed out by the questionnaire were that XXX misses oral directions in class, he seems oblivious in an active environment, he is bothered by loud or unexpected noises, he misses written or demonstrated directions, he will look away from tasks to notice other activity around him, he is easily startled, he appears awkward and clumsy in movements, he is slow to participate in physical activities, he is inefficient in completing tasks and he can be stubborn and uncooperative.

Assessment was completed in a one to one environment, so a lot of the above mentioned behaviors were not observed during assessment. XXX did demonstrate poor posture as he leaned over table to complete writing tasks, but he willingly completed all tasks asked of him and demonstrated good attention to task.

Hi eco,

I've been skimming along reading about your trials. How consistent are these behaviors to what you see at home?

Which teacher filled this out? Please ask to do the sensory profile survey as a parent as well. We've made the most progress during horrible years by discussing the differences between behavior at home and at school as highlighted by these surveys. Of course, you've already seen the scores, which will call your results into question. I might also consider asking a teacher that your son is successful with to fill out the survey.

Oh. We've done this one. The teacher report and the OT's interpretation can indeed be a way of saying "I don't like this kid, he behaves in ways that are unexpected and I disapprove."

I echo what Geo said. I would also ask the neuropsych to respond to and contextualize these results in the report.

I seriously doubt that "sensory difference" is driving what's happening here. Eyes on the prize.

Yeah, after processing it a bit (hee hee), that's kind of what I'm wondering. With scores this low, it's a wonder he can feed himself.

He *does* have some issues with noise. I had to keep him home one day this year because a teacher had announced there was a fire drill the next day and he kind of went into hysterics over it. Alarms are a long-standing problem. But I have conceptualized that as anxiety.

Hi eco,

I've also been following your thread but haven't had a chance to respond. Please don't feel like you're taking up "too much space" on the forum - that's what's great about posting here, there are other 2e parents who understand. If you searched through old posts you'd most likely find that most of us who respond have had our own periods of uber-posting when our kids were facing a tough situation at school or in life

Re everything, ita with DeeDee and Geofizz on everything they've replied/posted.

I'm also curious about the teacher who filled out the sensory eval - was that the art teacher or a different teacher? Any type of behavior-related assessment should be completed by more than one person, and by adults who are observing the child in more than one "domain" - i.e., a parent should have input in addition to school personnel, and the professional who is evaluating the combined evals should be able to have a sense of how behavior differs from home to school. I would also be vary wary of having just one teacher fill out the form, especially a teacher who appears to not like your ds and who's had issues with other kids at school.

A comment made by the principal somewhere upthread leaves me with the gut feeling the principal isn't going to let your ds get kicked out of this program, and it's possible he's had other parents who've had issues with this same teacher. You should be having a team meeting in the very near future at school to update your ds' 504 plan - when you do, request that the sensory eval, if it's used, is completed by ds' other teachers and any other school staff that works closely with him, as well as by *you* and your spouse or ds' dad or any other adult who spends a considerable amount of time with your ds.

Re sensory issues, I do believe that sensory interventions can help, but strongly feel (really strongly!) that most often what appears to be a sensory issue has an underlying root cause. One of my dds was diagnosed with sensory processing issues when she was young, and she went through around a year of sensory OT, and it really did help - a lot. It gave her coping mechanisms that worked to reduce anxiety and that was very significant. She'd been unable to sit still while working at school, and she had difficulty with audio-overload, couldn't hear the person talking directly to her because she heard other classroom background noises so loudly. The sensory OT really did help with that... but... and this is a huge "but"... the root issue wasn't an audio issue or an anxiety issue or anything that the sensory therapy addressed - all it did was give her ways to cope with things that were bi-products of the real issue - she couldn't see and we didn't realize it. Once we had the real issue figured out and treated/accommodated, the "sensory" issues disappeared.

I believe that sensory challenges are very real, just firmly believe that it's important to understand the whole functioning of a child first, and make a forward plan from there, rather than tackling things piecemeal and trying to apply a sensory "bandage" to what is an underlying challenge.

You have a 504 plan now, but have you considered requesting an IEP evaluation?
I am going to look upthread, then return and make a suggestion if you haven't.

Best wishes,

polarbear

OK, I didn't see IEP mentioned anywhere, so I'd consider asking for an IEP eligibility assessment, unless you're satisfied with an update to accommodations on your ds' 504. The primary reason I'd suggest an IEP eligibility evaluation is that I think it would be helpful in understanding your ds' behavior in class to have an SLP eval as well as possibly the cognitive vs achievement testing.

Your school is functioning a bit differently than the schools my kids have been in, so I don't know if you might be able to get an SLP's input without the IEP eligibility process - our schools would never have provided an OT eval without going through the IEP process, so it sounds like you have a school that is a bit more reasonable in working to meet the needs of students, which is a good thing!

Why an SLP assessment? I just wonder if your ds perhaps doesn't have some challenges with either receptive or expressive language. They can both be extremely subtle but also extremely frustrating for children and they also can result in what looks like behavioral challenges. Anyway, I could be way off base and I'm not a professional I'm just a parent - but it's one thing I'd wonder about.

Hang in there and let us know how everything is going!

Best wishes,

polarbear

I have asked--once in 3rd and again this year. Both times it was refused. The Process Coordinator this year told me (in response to my question) that they have rarely had a child in this program with an IEP.

I asked the school counselor this year if there was any upside to just letting DS fail so we could get evaluation--she said no, bc courses are accelerated, it wouldn't help.

Did you ask in writing or ask verbally?

Also, fwiw, which is most likely obvious, just because the program hasn't had "many" children with IEPs doesn't mean that a child in the program doesn't need or wouldn't benefit from one. I'd also be wary (well, I would be wary here in my children's school ) that the "not many" wasn't an accurate statement but was meant to dissuade a parent from pursuing a process that takes time and paperwork.

Did they give you any other reason for why the process was refused? And did they refuse the eligibility assessment process or did they go through the process and find him not eligible for an IEP?

Gotta run, will be back later

polarbear

I don't think they want any troublesome kids in the program.
Both times the evaluation was refused bc they looked at his records and there was no discrepancy between ability and performance, as I understand it.

In third grade, I asked for eval bc school counselor observed him in classroom and told me he was in his own world.

My son did okay in elementary school. There were some minor behavioral issues, but he always had good grades and his teachers liked him. ADHD med seemed to pretty much take care of it. Not this year...he is also going through puberty kind of early. That may be confounding things as well.

The old quote "Trust, but verify" may be a handy guide as you ask clarifying questions; Sometimes a catchall question such as, "Is there anything else I should know?" is helpful.

I asked the OT if just one teacher filled it out. She responded--yes, but evidently all three core teachers conferred on the answers. I don't know much about these things, but that is just so obviously ridiculous.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Hi eco,

Two things I wanted to add - when you were having difficulty getting the OT report emailed to you - our school district doesn't allow the OTs/SPED folks/etc to email or fax reports due to privacy policies. When I needed to see a report, it worked best to ask that the person leave it at the office desk at school in an envelope for me and I picked it up in person. They can also send things home in a sealed envelope with your child. You received your report so this is irrelevant at this point, but if you run into situations like this in the future, I'd consider asking (via email/writing) for a printed copy that you can pick up.

The other thing I noticed - in the sensory profile your ds is listed as "probable difference" for Sensory Seeking and also "definite difference" for Sensory Avoiding. I'm not a Sensory expert, but wouldn't it be unlikely that a child would be both sensory seeking *and* sensory avoiding? I also think that with most kids who truly have sensory issues it's unlikely that they'd have definite differences across the board - I'd expect a more uneven profile.

polarbear

Having two kids with sensory issues, I'm less certain of this. They can be sensory seeking and sensory avoiding for the same stimuli under different circumstances. For example, there are kids who cannot stand having a light sheet over their bodies, and yet love a weighted blanket.

Yes, they apparently think he is deficient in every single possible way!

Their observations don't seem to line up with the VMI stuff, either, unless I'm just totally not getting it. The "visual" and "movement" things are making me giggle a little. I guess that his "above average" visual perception and motor coordination appear as "awkward and clumsy" and whatever questions resulted in the 21/55 in Visual.

They haven't said one nice thing about him all year long--now I know why! He's just so terribly defective.

I also think it's kind of funny the "above mentioned behaviors were not observed during assessment." I don't think the teachers get to read this but I wish they did. I tell everyone (who will listen) that he is not difficult at home and is great with adults, one-on-one.

I actually do think he has some sensory issues. I would describe him as "under-reactive" which is not a technical term (there's a better one, but I don't remember it).

Seriously, at what point do you just cut bait? My friend (who has 2e daughter) talked to our other friend (who is SPED process coordinator who thinks I should just get him out of that school.

She said the most important thing is that the teachers haven't meshed with him and it's too stressful for him to be there.

Our family has chosen to stay and change the environment. It has been a boatload of work. I do think DS was happy not to change schools.

We really looked for alternatives-- both elsewhere in district and in other local districts. We did not find schools that were clearly better in dealing with our particular profile, so we would likely have been starting over wherever we went. Once we started fixing, we just kept on because starting over in a new school would have been A LOT of work.

A 2E is going to be a problem fit in most places-- in most places you will have to figure out something unconventional. There is no fairy palace to move to, at least not of which I am aware.

I believe that most of the teachers in your situation are acting out of ignorance of disability, with a side dish of "we don't want unusual people in our program; they're too much work." This strikes me as a place where-- if the administration on some level is amenable--you could change the situation by educating people and incentivizing them to value each student. This pays off not just for your kid, but for all the kids. Again, it's work. It's what we did, and in our case it paid off.

In your shoes, I'd be looking at gifted options elsewhere while also trying really hard to solve the problems where DS is now. Know what all the options are. At some point, it will become clear which path is more straightforward and will yield the better fit.

I hope. He REALLY wants to stay there and I think there has been a constellation of issues that have made the whole year difficult--family, insurance changes, doctors, meds, school--just all of it. I don't think it's the curriculum that's the problem--I think he's failed to assimilate.

Last night I noticed a bunch of his band friends interacting with him and it seemed like they really like him. He was always pretty popular with elementary kids, and he's told me all year his friends like him--I just wasn't sure he was right. That helped, somewhat.

Reading that OT report made me feel like I am in a parallel universe. All the adults in my child's real life think he is adorable.

To me, that says "stay and try to fix"-- at least for now. You are at the beginning-- the neuropsych will help considerably, I bet.

The agonizing slowness with which these problems are solved used to make me batty. I would recommend forcing yourself to check on it every day ("is there anything I should or need to do to move the school situation forward today?") and if there is not-- walk away from it for the day and think about other things. You can make yourself more bonkers than even the bad teacher can. And you need to be the sane one. As you are.

He sounds like a darling kid to me. You and he will figure it out together.
DeeDee

I agree with DeeDee's post above, and would stay where you are now as I think there is more work you can do there. At the same time, I'd definitely investigate wha your other school options are. The one caveat that I'd add though - is - what knowledge does your SPED coordinator friend have that we don't? Does she know something that would give her reason to believe the school just isn't going to budge or isn't a good fit or isn't going to work with you further?


Is it all the teachers or just the one? Will he have the same teachers next year? The principal did indicate he'd work with you on the fit next year, I think (?).

FWIW, we didn't cut bait in early elementary but did cut bait for middle school. The brief summary of our ds' 2e journey: Great K/1 experience, teacher differentiated, was 1st-e enough that he was able to compensate and fly under the radar and no one (teaher or parents) had a clue he had a disability. There were some signs that in hindsight pointed straight to it, but we didn't see it. 2nd grade was a nightmare with a teacher who seemed to dislike ds immensely, always in trouble in class for not producing work, teacher convinced he had ADHD, ds meanwhile became so anxious he had panic attacks at home. We finally sought a private eval due to the school issues being so overwhelming, he was diagnosed and the neuropsych gave us recommendations for accommodations/remediation/path forward etc. The neuropsych also recommended that we remove him from his classroom and school immediately due to the situation with his teacher. We loved his then-school (for other reasons) and didn't listen to the neuropsych's recommendation because it meant going private and I had some long-held reservations about private school. DS also had one really good friend, and since he had a tough time making friends, I didn't want to take him away from that friend. DS also didn't want to switch schools. We did switch him to a different teacher and that helped - but I still had to spend night and day advocating for ds, explaining his disability, fighting to get an IEP, staying ever-vigilant and advocating 24/7 to be sure his teachers actually followed the accommodations on the IEP... and at the end of the day, by the time he was in 5th grade ds was beyond frustrated. He was mature enough by then to be very award that he was different from the other kids and he was also aware that he had an IEP and was supposed to be receiving help for his challenge and the school wasn't helping him. So at the end of 5th, ds told us he was done and not going back. We went back to square one, looked into our options, and ultimately sent him to the school the neuropsych had originally recommended and not only was ds sooooo so much happier - my life was so much simpler when I didn't have to fight for ds all the time! I finally had time and energy to put into some of the normal things parents of nt kids put their time and energy into, and it made a world of difference for our entire family.

Sooo... the answer to "when do you cut bait" is different for everyone, but I think the key is not to look at it as a cut bait situation, but a situation where you have to weigh - where and how do I want to be spending my time and energy, and where will my child be more likely to be happy and successful in a learning environment?

Best wishes,

polarbear

In general, when you find a better option. If/when you do leave a school it is often beneficial, to whatever degree possible, to leave on a positive note, going on record as thanking the school team for their efforts (possibly especially listing any successes). It is a small world; You and/or your son could easily cross paths with individuals from this school again. Along those lines, also be mindful that posts on the forum may be read by other teachers/administrators.

It's hard to know when to take a kid out of a school and try something else, because there are no crystal balls. So much depends on the teacher and if you are lucky enough to get a good one. I am not shy anymore about telling principals that my child has X issues and needs Y in a teacher. But sometimes none of the teachers in a particular grade are going to be a good fit (or the principal has an inaccurate view of the teacher, thinking they are better than they really are). Of course, by middle school the child usually has more than one teacher and there is a higher probability of encountering at least one incompetent fool. Then the administration makes a big difference, and how much they understand your child and the issue, and want to help.

I think that once you notice a child spiraling downhill, it's time to seriously consider other options. For instance, the child is showing anxiety, thinks negatively about themselves, is starting to hate certain subjects or think they are bad at those subjects, etc. If advocacy efforts don't work, then that leaves little choice. I have been criticized for school switching, but the criticisms come from people with perfectly ordinary children who have no concept of what we, or our kids, face. I think it's almost always better to switch (or homeschool) than to keep a child in an environment that's toxic. Keep in mind that he may claim to be happy (because switching schools is scary and going to the unknown), but you need to look beyond that at his actual behaviors and what's underneath. If there are no better options, then you are left with no choice but to advocate the best that you can.

Agreed. I'll re-affirm this and advice from other posters, that you may wish to begin researching what other options are available, as this information will aid in your decision-making. The Davidson Database has articles on education options and school selection, to help guide parents through this process.

Okay. So much good advice. Here's what I've decided to do (I think).

Contact 504 Coordinator, tell her my concerns about existing plan and its implementation.

Wait for neuropsych results.

Stay on top of DS and schoolwork. The teachers don't have to like him.

Continue with very explicit communication with DS re: behaviors he needs to exhibit.

Continue with counseling for anxiety/depression.

Finish school, detox over summer.

It's such a complex situation. My daughter enters the program in the fall. She is a totally different child--driven, organized-- and should not encounter the same issues.

There are a few other options for DS, school-wise. A big issue is that the other "choice programs" do not offer transportation so the logistics would be a nightmare. My thinking is that this is not really a school-specific issue but a transition to middle school issue and he would probably have the same experience anywhere.

I think I may hire a college student from the education department to act as after-school manager, next year. Can you imagine my advertisement? "Need help with organization, must not be threatened by stubborn child who talks like a professor and behaves like a preschooler."

Ugh.

The only silver lining in all of this is that, for the most part, my son's self-concept is intact. He is showing signs of stress but there is something about his personality (probably related to his special brand of 2E) that insulates him from internalizing things--at least to a degree. I'm grateful for that--even though I have a feeling it is disability related.

I think you've got a solid plan. I would add to the list "reaffirm to my child that I'm working to improve the situation for next year." Even if these things appear to roll off his back, he does need to learn that there are adults he can trust and who are thinking about his needs.

I've posted ads nearly word for word to yours for such college students. I've gotten some really excellent students this way. Kind, nerves of steel, creative, and flexible.

Our DS12 is like that too. We take our blessings mixed. But I think this little bit of insulation is a good thing in middle school, on the whole.

I agree with what Geo said. And I love our afterschool college help. They do amazing stuff (teach kids to roller skate; stay calm when I might not; take kid to gym and learn etiquette of working out and locker room)...

Just lately, I've been acutely aware of reminding DS I've got his back, I love him, and I will take care of him no matter what happens with school. This may sound just a bit overwrought, but this situation has been traumatic for ME. I'm not sure about him. I think it's partly because I've been down this road once before with my older son--different circumstances but finding myself needing to seek help immediately and feeling like his entire future is at stake.

I wonder how many parents of special needs kids actually have PTSD?

I have used our university's employment services several times in the past and found outstanding sitters. This year--the plan was for DS to go home alone (because it is only an hour before I'm there), but we changed that at semester when it was clear he was checked out, academically. So now he goes to Grandma's and she supervises homework. Unfortunately, Grandma really has no patience for the issues (they *are* difficult--he can sit and stare at something for 30 minutes before initiating). I think someone with a little more energy would be helpful.


I will take any blessing I can get right now! Ironically, the whole idea behind this program is to insulate these highly gifted children from social stressors by placing them in a safe environment so they can be intellectually nurtured with their peers.

The more I read about autism and NLD, etc., the more I think that's what I'm going to hear next week. On the one hand, that is scary and a huge paradigm shift. On the other, it will give me a better working model than the current ADHD dx which only fits to a certain point.

Serenity prayer time.

More than a few, I'd guess. This stuff changes your brain.

Do take care of yourself, including time off from this and enlisting all supports necessary.


After you finish walking in circles shouting things (I sometimes do, facing irony like this) you may make a plan for using this in your negotiations.


If it's the case, you can likely move from a 504 to an IEP, which will enable you to place better supports where they're needed and change teacher behavior. We've had great success adding a "behavior intervention plan" to an IEP-- not because it controls DS's behavior, but because it specifies in detail how teachers must respond when there's an issue. This prevents certain ugly things from happening and educates everyone.

There are a lot of legal tools available for fixing problems; you don't have to learn them all at once; for now just know they're there.