Talk to me about out of district placement, anyone who has gotten it or has any experience with it.

So, I am just plugging along documenting every time my son is denied his scribing or keyboard accommodations. To each of my complaints (documenting a denial of access to accommodations or a shaming for the need of the accommodations by teacher or staff) the principal always sends a long 'fluffy' email basically skirting the issue that my kid has been denied his accommodations and insisting the school is ever so "loving" and we must be lying. My attorney helps me each time - telling me don't let him push your buttons just document, document, document. We have a standard polite unemotional response mimicking the IDEA law and we just use that to document the incident. But I am wondering when should I start thinking about suing for OOD placement? Any thoughts, ideas?

I don't know. I really do not want him to have to go somewhere else but this school is just so frustrating. What I find most annoying is instead being more sympathetic and saying "we'll help," they insist that the incident(s) never happened. That we are lying/making it up (hallucinating it)... that the school is great and ever so "loving." I'd have more respect and more patience if they said something even remotely close to "we're sorry that happened, we'll talk to so-and-so and make sure they understand." But what I usually get is 'so sorry that you're having halluciations. I can assure you said teacher would never do such a thing. I talked to said teacher and the incident never happened. But your entitled to insane perceptions and we're sorry you and your kid have hallucinations. We hope you get better soon.'

Arrrrrg.

I don't have any experience with OOD placement - what does your attorney have to say about it? Is there a good school option that you've identified? Are there any other options within your district? When we were working with our advocate, she was able to give us advice on which in-district schools were invested in doing the right thing for sped kids and which schools (like the one we were in) were going to be like hitting a brick-wall head on for the entire time we were there.


I understand not wanting your ds to not have to go somewhere else, but I suspect he'll be *much* happier if you do find a different school for him. As I've mentioned here before, by the time our ds was in 4th/5th grade he was very aware that he needed help and accommodations and he was very aware that the school wasn't giving him what he needed and what he had an IEP set up in place to provide. I never ever talked to him about the difficulties I was having in advocating, but he was experiencing them first hand as the student who had needs that weren't being met. So by 5th grade *he* wanted to change schools. I can't tell you how much better life was once we were in a school where the teachers had respect of the students needs, where they listened to parents and where they were honest about what they could and couldn't do in the classroom (as well as being open and transparent with what they did do, and who followed through with requests from us to try accommodations etc).

It sounds like you're at the place where you are spending a huge amount of time and effort advocating, and you're not making equitable progress. You're at the point I'd jump ship. If you go for OOD placement, keep documenting.

Wishing you the best!

polarbear

I hear you. I reported DS's teacher at the time I pulled him out and the two people I was talking to pretty much dismissed everything I said, like I must be crazy. She could have gotten away with locking him in a closet all day and no one would have done anything about it. It's an "us vs. crazy parent" mentality. The teacher is always right. Whether they did end up talking to the teacher or reprimanding her in any way, I have no idea, but I'm sure now they are at least watching her more closely and hopefully things have improved for the remaining kids in the class. I don't know anything about OOD placement but you'd probably need a lot of "proof" to get anywhere with that.

We are effectively placed OOD.

I'll say (cynically) that it's often nowhere near as HARD to get an OOD placement if your child's needs are either expensive or disruptive, provided that your documentation supports those things as absolute needs in terms of accommodations, services, and placement.

The reason is that the home district that mistreats you is very probably secretly thinking "Don't go away mad... just... you know."


Well, OOD makes you someone else's PROBLEM.

Magical, once they realize that.

I'm guessing this question may be directed at least in part at me so I will fill you in on what I know. (Ironically I just had this exact conversation last night with another mom I know IRL...)

First - I don't recommend pushing for OOD prematurely. It's a big step that will cost the district big bucks so they won't entertain the request lightly. HK is correct - if your child is expensive or disruptive it will be easier. My DD was well behaved but I pushed and pushed not letting them off the hook as they screwed up so it ended up costing them as much to not meet her needs in her home school as it would cost them to meet her needs OOD. Same cost + meeting her needs + having me back off = an easy decision for them. Not sure how long it would have taken for a well behaved child without any of those 3 elements though.

Also as bad as our situation was it seems the horrible principal actually did us a favor in the long run. Her behavior was so egregious she really put the district in an indefensible position. The classroom teacher last year failed so completely in implementing the IEP it became very easy for us to show DD's needs were not being met in the home school. The district's total failure to follow through on the assistive technology also made it impossible to defend their position - they absolutely failed to provide a free and appropriate education.

One attorney I spoke to explained that generally speaking parents don't have a right to demand anything of their local public school - everything is up to the school board so parents have to go through them to effect any change. Parents with IEP's are the only ones who can make specific demands or have any hope of getting the district to pay for another setting. The bar to get them to do this, though, is pretty high. You can't just say you are not happy or want things done a different way. There has to be documentation that he has specific needs that are not being met. He is not entitled to a perfect education or even an outstanding education. He is entitled to an "appropriate" education. That is the important word to remember.

And also be careful about saying "no" things. This opens the door to them making the claim that you prevented all their attempts to provide this appropriate education. Our district's MO was to ask me how I wanted them to handle everything. And I mean everything. This put them in a position to say that anything and everything was being done according to the parents' request. Once I realized what they were doing I began responding by saying " You're the experts - I'm just a mom. You have been down this road before I haven't. What do YOU think you should do?" and then "You know - you're the ones with the federal mandate to provide an education. I'm just required to pay my taxes and present my child at the school house door. If you can't meet her needs in her local school it's up to YOU to find a way to meet those needs. Not me..."

My DD had an anxiety diagnosis and migraines that went off the charts when her needs were not being met so it was a pretty easy call in the end. The mom I talked to last night has a son whose behavior is spiraling to really bad levels so the district actually offered OOD. Even when it's a fairly easy call you still have to locate a school for him that will be able to meet his needs. That school also has to be willing to accept him and if you develop a reputation as a trouble maker the district could let potential placements know about this.

There's a lot to consider here. Hope this helped at least a little bit.

Even when it's a fairly easy call you still have to locate a school for him that will be able to meet his needs. That school also has to be willing to accept him and if you develop a reputation as a trouble maker the district could let potential placements know about this.

I agree.

NO WAY could we have found another B&M school OOD that would have "embraced" my DD. NO. WAY.

He has an IEP.


Well, I am not doing that. I am not merely unhappy or "just want something done differently." He has a documented specific need. He has Ehlers Danlos and dysgraphia. It's documented. Well documented. He also has an anxiety diagnosis. And yet he gets denied his scribing or keyboarding accommodations by certain teachers. Some teachers (there seems to be at least one every year) seem very reluctant for some reason to allow him to type or to get him a scribe. I am just wondering how long this gets to go on? And what can I do if this continues as a pattern? What is my recourse when I have medical documentation that he needs certain writing accommodations, he has an IEP that clearly spells out what accommodations he is to get and he gets denied them several times over the year, or discouraged from accessing them?

I do have another school in mind. It is private and expensive. It is specifically for kids like DS. I don't think we could afford it unless we got OOD.

It's not like I just bring this up because I have nothing else to do or something. I just can't imagine my child going on like this year after year - it's demoralizing

I dream of this - particularly I dream of a " school where the teachers had respect of the students needs" where they understand dysgraphia.


Yes. That is exactly where I am. I'd love to just send him to this school have in mind. It gets RAVE reviews. It seems transformative for kids with dysgraphia and dyslexia. The special ed attorneys I know say that is really where my kid needs to go... even for a couple of years.

I wish so much I could do it for my DS. But it is over $30,000 per year. It's also not close or convenient to our home. But the biggest obstacle is the price.


Thanks

Here is an idea....can you go to an office supply store and get a self inking stamp made that says...

scribe requested by ____________
scribing provided by ____________

And he stamps his work pages and initials the top line and the scribe signs the second line or he writes the word denied or none or draws a line or something.

GREAT idea Sweetie, and very to the point that I wanted to make. Irena, it occurs to me that while you have been documenting but the district has been counter-documenting.

Can you imagine it in court? You: "And on x date, Teacher Y again failed to provide a scribe for DS when requested." "But here we have Defense Exhibit 100, yet another email from Principal Depraved stating that the scribing DID happen." It strikes me that the district has faced this issue before and gotten some sneaky lawyer advice on how to avoid consequences for their IEP failures in court.

If your district is contesting that IEP violations are even occurring, your ability to get OOD placement on the basis of IEP violations is not possible. You need to devise a system, like the one Sweetie suggests or similar, that documents beyond question the facts that support your DS' inability to access education at this school. As long as the district can contest all of these violations, their willingness to agree to OOD placement seems highly unlikely to me.

I am concerned about Irena's DS having to ask for the accommodation let alone having him be the one to document it not occurring. All sorts of bad scenarios are running through my head...

When they denied it was happening with my DD we made an appointment with DD's 2 biggest supporters on the IEP team. They first said they wanted a meeting with the whole team and I said it was not my intention to embarrass the teacher in front of her colleagues but if they refused to meet with us I would have no choice. After allowing them the opportunity to deny it was happening I brought out 2 piles of papers. One done while para was in the room and one done when she was out. The difference was striking. I then asked them to point to a single example of the work being modified or DD's disabilities being accommodated on these examples. That was it - they knew we had the proof. At the next IEP meeting these 2 requested that DD be assigned a full time para.

The IEP has to be *crystal* clear though so there is no dispute about *when* to accommodate. Your DS should NOT have to ask for this. In our case we got to the point of saying "no near or far point copying tasks" and DD "may write a maximum of 2 sentences herself". Anything more than this had to be scribed or completed outside the classroom with the OT, spec ED teacher or in the resource room with the para. Again it was crystal clear - a copying task in DD's handwriting was a clear violation. More than 2 sentences in her handwriting without signatures from OT, spec Ed teacher or para (with a written remark about where it occurred) was a clear violation. No individual complaints just crystal clear message to them that their IEP violations were being documented.

It is tough but you have to remove emotion from this part. A clear IEP with *very* specific guidelines is needed. I can't emphasize this enough. If something is left to opinion, interpretation or emotion you will just be spinning your wheels.

I understand your intent Sweetie, and I'm not criticizing your idea, but I wouldn't recommend doing this. A student should never have to request the accommodations outlined in their IEP or 504 plan, and at the age of Irena's ds, they shouldn't even have to be making a conscious decision to use them - the school should be routinely providing them.


Have you asked about reduced tuition? I suspect you're caught in the dreaded make-too-much-$ to qualify but it's something to consider. The private schools I've been involved with each had students attending at reduced tuition rates. I also wonder what the sped attorneys you know have to say about the probability of success in seeking an OOD placement - have you asked them what they thought? (No need to answer here, just thought it was worth discussing with them if you haven't already).

Best wishes,

polarbear

Yes, no offense to Sweetie but her suggestion is actually a horrible idea for a small child who has disabilities to have to ask AND document. I can't even go into all of the ways that such an idea is just a really bad one. School is already stressful enough for him . He already has and anxiety disorder from dealing with the adults in school who fight and moan and have otherwise been VERY bothered by the fact that he was born with a disability that is slightly inconvenient for them and that they do not understand. And I think people forget how intimidated a child can feel in the presence of teachers and all of the authority figures at school. No. That is a super bad idea.



Yes. I accomplished this finally at the end of last year. It was a long drawn out veritable battle that many here saw me through. I did ultimately hire a lawyer. DS now has a CRYSTAL clear IEP. And, yes, there was also a battle over whether or not he needs to ask, which I won ... in theory ... However, as you can see, he still needs to ask. That isn't even my problem. Now that he has enough guts to ask, they take it a step further and deny him. Make him ask repeatedly. Make it difficult. Are reluctant so that he feels like he is bothering them or going to be in trouble, Because SOME TEACHERS are just not happy that he is bothering their day with his disability. He had to practically beg this teacher to allow him to type his spelling words rather than write. Really, how is that such a big bother to her?

Yes, well, DS just doesn't write at all... The sheets are left blank. And I tried last year to get the proof from them and the worksheets disappeared... Many of these sheets don't get sent home. I am not sure what they do with them or if they are suppose to be sent home at the end of the term or what but I don't get them. And when I request them and they are potentially incriminating, they disappear. I never see them. Last year regarding this type of thing, the principal told teachers they were not allow to email me about DS's work, send me anything or talk to me about it or anything. All my requests had to go through him and he would get me the info/worksheets which of course he never did. But that was last year. And that was when I got a lawyer and the ass't superintendent involved. It's better this year.

But, like I said, DS gets these teachers - either it's a "specials" teacher or in this case it's the language arts teacher... and they are annoyed about him being the only kid who gets to type his work. Or gets to do his test orally or gets a scribe. It's tiring and demoralizing. I guess we are not at the level yet of OOD but I guess I'd like there to be a threat of it (to the school) or the hope of it (for us). When I posted my original post I just felt a bit hopeless that this is what every year will be like and wanted hope that I some sort of leverage and some hope to maybe keep in my head.

Yes, this is what gets me too. That is exactly what's happening and it also has the added benefit to the principal of sucking me into an infuriating he said-she said fight wherein my emotions make me look badly. However, having an attorney helps that. Fortunately, I haven't actually "lost it" on the school in any way that makes me look badly/crazy but have come close. Also the last two times, my attorney pointed out principal didn't clearly deny the violation and told me that what we have is enough for documentation purposes - and also pulling me back from engaging in an argument with principal which could make me look badly and which would motivate him to make a clear denial. So I guess that is good. But yeah. Hence, my wish to get out of there ...

OK now the next step that some here may disagree with: if it is supposed to be scribed and it isn't he does not do the assignment. Period. No asking for it. No reminding them. If his hand hurts he stops.

I don't know how your DS's anxiety shows itself but my DD would shut down or develop somatic complaints. I made clear to her she would *never* be in trouble for not completing work at school. Again if you have blank pages there is evidence that scribing was not provided. Trust me if they provide a scribe and he refuses to answer THEY will document this so a blank or partially finished page is solid evidence.

Does your IEP designate a specific number of words, lines or sentences he is allowed to write without a scribe? Does it identify when he *can't* be expected to write it himself? Does it specifically state he is not to be expected to ask for the accommodation? DD's teacher last year thought for sure she was helping by telling DD "Do as much of it as you can yourself before you ask for help." They were telling me how great it was that DD was *able* to write more than I thought she was able to. Yeah and then the migraines, the shutting down and the school anxiety ramped up big time. She became even more aware of her weaknesses and wanted to badly to be like the other kids. Teacher never understood that requiring DD to work to the point of failure or fatigue was not good for her.

If OOD is your goal then your response to this situation has to be one that gets you there. Some of it may seem counter intuitive. You want him to succeed. You want him to learn. You want his time in school to be well spent. Sad to say all these things make getting OOD more difficult. Like the family that spends thousands of dollars on tutoring so their child can pass by the bare minimum and is then denied services because he is not testing below grade level. You need to let him perform at his *actual* level - not the level he fights for by asking over and over for supports that aren't being automatically provided. It's hard but to qualify for OOD you have to be prepared to stand on the sidelines and watch him fail. It's gut check time on this one. We get so used to advocating that it is hard to watch them suffer but in my experience its a necessary step in the process.

Yes, I fall in the "can't afford it but make to much to qualify for any substantial aid" category. The first special-ed attorney that I consulted last year advised me to send my kid to the other school asap (last year) and then sue for reimbursement for OOD. But I can't really afford all that and it could of course be denied. I actually haven't chatted with my current attorney yet b/c, well, she charges me every time I talk to her Also, things haven't been as bad this year as last. My current attorney hasn't even written them a letter yet, she has only helped me with mine and my communications with the school. She will though if more violations happen. So, obviously I guess OOD is premature ... But is it? Are these years not cumulative. This year isn't so bad - with only about three violations so far, but from my perspective it feels like it is never-ending b/c last year was horrible and even the year before (but we only had a 504 back then). Is all of this cumulative or is each year a new start with it ending just when the violations get bad enough and then we start the next year with fresh new prejudices from new teachers? I guess that is a question for my attorney.

I seriously now know why people with children with disabilities put listening devices on their children. It feels like that is the only way to prove that what is happening to your child is indeed really happening. Don't think I haven't dreamed of doing it.

Sorry - you must have posted as I was typing.

Add to the IEP that ALL worksheets will be sent home. Every minute of his day is to be accounted for. Major PITA for the teachers but if evidence is being "disappeared" it's a legitimate request. When they balk at this present it as being done for their benefit. Afterall you and DS both hallucinate -right? If they can document every minute of every day you can't claim things are missing now can you?

Yes, Yes and yes. We had this exact same problem last year: And that was how we ended up with a really good IEP. Because I HAD to put a stop to it. So, yeah, I guess we are really on the right road it seems. Ticking each box here...

DS does type a lot now... so that's good. It's the math that is getting problematic now because as they embark on long addition, subtraction, multiplication and division the dysgraphia really interferes with that and the school can't seem to figure out how he can "do worksheets" and type them. (and yes it is time for my snide remark that I am not sure what we even need teachers for all they are completely useless without their precious "worksheets.") They did put Panther Math Peper on his Ipad but DS says he hasn't yet figured out all of the functions and how to do the carry function. Turns out, they put it on his ipad and never showed him how to use it. He says teacher doesn't know how to use it. C'mon really?

As an aside (or maybe not), in the midst of all of this, it is starting to feel like the school wants this all to be about ADD/behavioral... Almost as if they what to convolute the issues - almost like they'd RATHER all this be about ADHD and not EDS and dysgraphia. For example, they wanted to do an FBA (even though he is never in trouble or disruptive or anything). I still do not understand why they asked for that. And they want to talk attention all of the time when I think what we really need is what they are not bringing up - I think we need an Assistive Tech eval. For example, when I said "no" to doing OT in math class, principal emailed back saying he agrees with me, but not because it is a bad idea for kids with dysgraphia and EDS - he based it on "DS attention difficulties." It's a bad idea for dysgraphics period whether they have ADHD or not. Why does the school suggest an FBA instead of an assistive technology eval? It just is so weird to me and I am seriously suspicious of it but I can not figure out what they are up to.

I assume I can request an Assistive Tech eval, right? I guess I should formally do it, in writing. And I need to do what Polarbear advised me a few months ago - get the assistive tech stuff in his IEP.

Oh this is good idea. I will do this we have a meeting in two weeks. This will be on my agenda.

Irena, I've probably asked you this before, so ignore me if you want to Is there any kind of disability pro-bono legal aide group in your area? If there is, I think they might be very happy to help with advice on this - I know our local group gives advice to families in your situation and if you had a similar group in your area they might be able to give you input on the chances of OOD happening and what's happened with other local families who've pursued it.


Irena, does ds bring his iPad home or can you spend a little time with him on it at school? If you have access to it, get in and learn how to do it yourself and also show your ds. It's *easy*. Not something a young student could figure out, but you can figure it out. If you would like, I can write up a little "how to" and pm it to you (but not until Monday.. life is busy until then lol!).

We got a lot of "the teacher doesn't know how to do ____" push back on AT and had to basically come up with solutions that required no work on the part of the teacher. I have some understanding for the teacher in this - they have a lot to do anyway planning and teaching a classroom full of kids. OTOH, I suspect this "teacher doesn't know how to do" may be coming from a place of "teacher doesn't want to bother with it" or "school principal doesn't want the teacher to be bothered with it". You can request that the SPED or AT staff figure out how to do it and instruct your ds and the teacher - but little things like this are just so ridiculous! The amount of time it would take to argue this point in an IEP meeting, then call in an AT person to "teach" your ds how to do it - it's so much time compared to the level of the task. With something like this, if you can just show your ds yourself how to do it, then when you're in your next meeting and the staff is arguing "ds can't do his math on his iPad because..." you can counter back "ds has the software and knows how to use it".


This happened to us too. I honestly could never figure out why, other than getting the perception that our particular school staff saw many more children with ADHD than with dysgraphia, hence they were familiar with it. We were also told outright that if ds was qualified for an IEP under OHI/ADHD they could give him all kinds of accommodations - the very accommodations we had to fight like crazy to get for dysgraphia. DS also had a diagnosis of mild inattentive type ADHD when he was initially diagnosed with dysgraphia - all based on the input from his teacher who was convinced he had ADHD (and who nothing about dysgraphia) - the teacher profile from his BASC matched an ADHD profile, our profiles (parents) didn't, but the neuropsych diagnosed him with mild ADHD anyway. When we advanced to the stage of trying to get IEP eligibility and were told that it would be easiest to get him accommodations for ADHD and the school wanted us to drop advocating based on dysgraphia, we (parents) became very concerned that going forward we were advocating based on the *real* reason accommodations were needed and not using one diagnosis just to slide in the door - maybe that would be ok one year, but what was going to happen down the road if ds needed something else due to dysgraphia that wasn't a typical ADHD accommodation? Not to mention that it wouldn't be addressing the real problem, and was essentially leaving a label with a student that wasn't accurate. Anyway.. I'd better stop venting, eh? So - this is what we did to counter that - we pursued an ADHD eval through our pediatrician, and he was adamant that it could *not* be ADHD if we weren't seeing the same behaviors across environments (school and home) and if the behaviors hadn't been present *before ds entered school*. Our ped also noted that lack of attention in class could be tied to challenges with dysgraphia as well as boredom due to giftedness. So we then had an official "no ADHD 'diagnosis' " that we could use whenever school brought up the issue of ADHD. Which they continued to do!



If they are still insisting on this, I would ask for the reasons (in writing). I would also request that parent observations be included. This was the advice we had from our advocate.


You've got to just keep asking. Put the AT request in writing. If the school tries to sidestep or derail a conversation about this, bring them back to what you're asking. Let them know that you can address behavior in a different conversation, meeting, whatever, but the point of this one request is an AT eval, and it's warranted due to your ds' medical diagnoses (Ehler's and dysgraphia).



It sounds like they are trying to not be held accountable for providing services. It's possible they are simply stretched to their limit in terms of what they can provide (I know this is the case in our school district - I have friends who are teachers and sped specialists, and there are just so many requests for services that often the only way to meet a child's needs is for the parents to sue the district - which creates a bit of a catch-22 situation because the district staff is then spending time in meetings meetings meetings (fighting fighting fighting) and it creates an atmosphere of parents vs school etc.

I'm just curious - have you looked into whether or not the sped resources and staff at other neighborhood public schools in your area might be better? In our district it's possible to request an out-of-zone exemption for any reason under the sun, and if there is not full enrollment at the school it's usually granted. The only gotcha there is you have to provide transportation to/from school. But it's something that you might think about - we were told by our advocate and also heard through our local grapevine that the ability to advocate and receive good IEP services varied depending on the school your child was enrolled at - a huge part of the equation was the attitude of the school principal and school staff.

polarbear

I agree with this in theory, but it's really tricky to actually accomplish this with an early elementary student. My ds, for instance, wanted to do what his teachers told him to do. If they told him to write and didn't provide his AT, he didn't argue with them. He knew inside his head he was supposed to have his AT but he didn't want to go against what an adult told him to do - even though he knew what his parents had told him to do.

Same kind of thing happened with my dd who has anaphylactic allergies. She had medicine in the nurses office at school and a clear set of medical directions from the dr re when to administer. The dr's form clearly stated that if she had hives she should be given her antihistamine (no calls to parent, no nothing, administer antihistamine immediately). I found out *months* later that what usually happened when she had hives was she would ask to go to the nurses office, and then the nurse (the person in charge of her medical needs who had access to her paperwork and new danged well what it said)... would routinely tell her "OK, but we don't know that it's really an allergic reaction. Go back to class for 20 minutes and if it's still bumpy then, come back and you can have your medicine". DD never went back - she got the message loud and clear, the nurse didn't care. DD didn't want to rock any boats. And because she was very young, she didn't realize she could come home, tell me, and I'd be at school the very next day throwing a fit over it all and making sure she got her meds the next time she needed them. So she didn't tell me.

Now that she's almost a teenager, she's much better at understanding the big picture and advocating for herself at school and at home But in early elementary, most children still want to do what the teacher says - even if it's not the right thing to do and even if it causes them pain and frustration.

polarbear