We finally got our DS into a new class. Teacher is young and kind and is working with sensory issues. However our ds is so angry! He has no patience at all and his behaviors are getting worse. His self esteem as at a low, he keeps saying he is not a smart boy. He is so different than the kids in his new class. He doesn't fit in. But I've never met a kid like our ds either.

Considering meds for the sub threshold ADHD but not sure if try will help. Curb the impulses maybe and improve his behaviors? Improving behaviors and being in less trouble might help his self esteem. The school will be retesting IQ and doing achievement testing.

I'm also concerned that ds needs so much sleep. He never seems quite tested despite naps and melatonin at bedtime?

I have no ideas at this point!

Personally, I wouldn't start trying ADHD meds if you know there's a sleep issue. Sleep issues can cause all the same symptoms as ADHD. If your doctor hasn't already, contact a sleep clinic!

You could try supplementing fish oil. A lot of ADHD folks have seen some improvements by adding Omega-3 to their diets (typically at a higher dose than is typically recommended.) I believe the recommended for a kid is one gram a day (many only have a few hundred milligrams, so you've gotta read the labels! You also want to look for one that's got a 4:1 ratio of Omega-3 to Omega-6.)

I jus started ds on an omega 3 gummy supplement. I may increase it. We are adding in healthier foods and trying to help in the nutrition area to the best of our ability with a picky eater! Thanks for the info!

What does his pediatrician say about the sleep issues? If you haven't discussed this with your ped, I would. FWIW, there are medical reasons why a child might not be getting enough sleep - and if he's not getting enough sleep you could be seeing the overflow from that in behavior struggles during the day.

I also wonder if his sensory needs are getting in the way of a good night's sleep? You can go in so many different directions with sensory needs/challenges depending on the individual child that it's tough to give advice about it - but just curious - have you tried having him sleep under a weighted blanket or in a sleeping bag? Does he complain about having sheets scratching his skin or anything like that? Is he waking up a lot at night or just always tired?

Like Amy, I'd also be wary of trying ADHD meds before you've worked through the sleep issues as much as possible. When you say he is so different than the kids in his new class - how is he different? Is he different in a way that looks like ADHD or in some other way? I really wonder about his comments that he is not smart. Have you asked him why he feels like he's not smart? I wonder if his answers to that question might help you think through whether or not it's ADHD or an LD that is the real challenge for him.

What is the school's reason for testing? If the school is redoing IQ and achievement testing due to behavior challenges in the classroom, are they also doing any kind of functional behavior observations etc?

Best wishes as you try to figure it all out -

polarbear

One thing you can do regardless of anything else is to bump up the exercise level for your DS. From what you say, it looks like he sleeps a lot (?) and is unrested when he wakes up. My DS cannot fall asleep naturally because of his very active mind that keeps the thoughts buzzing around in circles all night long. So, the pediatrician said to increase the exercise level by a huge amount and to stop all screen time (screen images overstimulate kid's brains and disturbs sleep). We drasticllay increased the exercise level - PE in school, martial arts (3 times a week), swimming (2 times a week). And no screen time in our home.
My DS falls asleep now before his head hits the pillow and sleeps through the night. It is a great change in lifestyle for our family because for many years, I have been awake at night sitting with a toddler unable to sleep.
So, one thought would be to make him so tired that he sleeps soundly. And to make that happen, my only recourse was organized sports with a coach who could put my kid through the paces.

I agree with everyone else that it is a good idea to work on the sleep issues before bringing in medication. Sleep disturbances are notorious for looking like ADHD/behavior issues. And you can always take the further step of adding medication at a later point when you are confident that other issues have been ruled out.

Several things that might be disturbing his sleep that you may want to consider:
- sleep apnea (does he snore? toss and turn a lot? maybe throw up for seemingly no reason at night?)
- ear infections (maybe evident in coughing more when he lays down since fluid buildup putting pressure on the eardrum can cause a reflexive cough)
- a distracting environment (room not completely dark, noises that could maybe be covered with a fan or other white noise, toys within his view when he is laying in bed, a t.v. or other electronics close to bed time)

What is his general routine throughout the day? Do you have a very consistent sleeping/eating/activity schedule and bedtime routine? Do you think he has a fairly consistent blood-sugar level throughout the day?

Can you tell us a little bit more about this new class he is in? Was he having these issues before he was in this class? Do you think his behavior is tied specifically to school and/or the new class, or do you see things at home as well?

Thanks everyone.

The school is doing IQ testing based on the extremely low scores he got from our psych. His overall IQ scored at 82, with a very low processing score. The principal was very disturbed by this. She said at minimum Zach should be at 100. (She feels he is highly intelligent.) Especially since he is excelling at reading and was formerly in one of the higher functioning class rooms and doing well academically. They will be doing observations also. Everyone that knows our ds comments about how bright he is. Teachers that know our ds say no way is that IQ score correct. I do think he has attention issues. Our biggest hurdle is that ds thinks he knows everything so it's hard to explain school work because of battles. There could be some working memory issues, but it's hard to tease out. His handwriting skills are poor. He is just learning to write numbers but had 20 minutes of common core math last night. When his writing picks up and can keep up with his brain it will be interesting! He will make it!

DS feels he is stupid because he is always in trouble. And he is. He is an interesting combo. He has little tolerance for others. He likes to be silly and pull pranks, which get him into trouble. (He mooned two boys yesterday after the bathroom. Today he was telling his boy buddies how to spell poop and pee. He gets in trouble be he thinks it is hillarious). He also resorts to physical measures when people ignore him and don't cooperate. His interests are strange sometimes and other kids don't get him. He doesn't have Aspergers because he is so social, but he has a hard time communicating with many kids his age. He wants to pretend to make labs and test things, or he will hone in on weird things like all the mechanism and machinery in IronMan and the other kids have no clue. He acts out movies and other things and other kids don't understand him. He is just different. We love him - any disability he has he can overcome, and we like his quirkiness because we are both quirky too.

ADHD symptoms are being off task on his work, being highly distractable, and wanting to converse all the time. He is very impulsive - if he wants to do it, he does it. But his actions have a purpose. It's not a bouncing off the walls kind of impulsive. It's not random. He has ADHD symptoms but he isn't what I think of as the typical ADHD. He was never accident prone or taking risks. In fact he needs to take more risks. I don't know he is a hard case.

On the sensory - he sleeps in scivies because he loves his sheets.

On exercise - when? He gets a snack after school and then naps from 4-5:30 or 6:00. At 6:00 we eat and then do homework. He might get 45 minutes to an hour to do what he wishes. Then bath time and bed. My husband doesn't get in until 6:45-7:00. If we did sports ds would have 0 time to do anything he likes. We do play nerf gun wars a lot in the evening so he gets to run around. He has gym 1 day a week. Ds isn't a big sports fan. He might like karate, but he has no coordination whatsoever! (Neither do I.)

Out of curiosity, do you see better behavior when he is with older children or children he has more in common with? How is his behavior at home with you?

Routine - up at 6:45-7:00
At school at 7:30
Home at 3:30, snack
Nap 4:00 to 5:30 or 6:00
Dinner 6:00 until 6:30
Homework and playtime
Bath (reads 3 sentences we write for him to read at bedtime per his request.)
In bed 8:00 -8:20 with Melatonin probably asleep in 15 minutes after begging for a drink or some other issue to delay bedtime.

We run our ac fan and bathroom fan at night for white noise, but doesn't necessarily tune out everything. My husband gets home at 7 and still has things that have to be done when our son is asleep.

Yes DS prefers very verbal children his age, or children a year or two older. He communicates better and is less silly unless overstimulated. The older kids guide him a little in areas where he has poorer judgement.

He loves taking to adults too. He asks a billion questions. He craves information but could care less about handwriting.

Dp

Change the afternoon. Drop the nap (I am surprised he is asleep before midnight). Replace it with exercise, homework, tea, bath then bed at 7.30.

My 4 year old can take several hours to go to sleep. If he napped later than 2 (up by 2 )or for more than an hour after his second birthday he would have been awake until 11 or 12.

I agree with puffin; but also, I suggest dropping the melatonin (tapering it perhaps, rather than stopping at once, if you've been giving it daily). I know it's regarded in some places as utterly benign, but in others it's not available at all or never recommended for children - given that you're seeing issues that might be caused by, rather than ameliorated by, it, I'd get it out of the equation asap.

Totally agree with this - it's no wonder he can't get to sleep at night when he sleeps until 6pm! Both of my boys couldn't get to sleep at night if they napped at all during the day starting at around 3 years old.

I guess this is maybe what's missing. Ds has always needed a lot of sleep. At three he would take 3 1/2 - 2 1/2 hour naps everyday waking up at his own internal timing in the morning. No melatonin.
Even on weekends, by 2 or 3 in the afternoon he is tired and needs a nap. Especially if its been a busy day. He may sleep until 8 am and still need a nap. He needs the sleep. It's not that he always has issues falling asleep. We've cut the naps back from 4-5:30. We tried no nap and he'd fall asleep in the car. One day he started to fall asleep at school after recess when they turn the lights down. Without a nap he was falling to sleep on the couch at 6:00 or 6:30. It's really hard to work with. His little body needs 12-13 hours. That's just him. On the weekends we don't give melatonin at all. But he still sleeps a lot. The dr was the one who mentioned melatonin to us.
And on the weekends when he wakes up at 8 has a 2 hour nap at 2 or 3 pm and is asleep at 8:30 he is a much easier kid to handle. Much less hyper, much better mood, seems much happier.

Do you maybe need a development pediatrician (perhaps at a local children's hospital or elsewhere) assess your DS?

Strongly agree with other responses... nap plus meds to sleep not a good idea.

I guess we can try no nap, but I'll have to have dinner ready at 5:00. We won't be able to do any excercise (other than outdoors if its nice.) Well be home at 3:30, he'll eat a snack and then he'll have homework. I think he'll be out by 6:00 or 6:30 again, if he doesn't fall asleep on the couch before that. And he won't get to see his daddy at all during the week.

You can try adjusting the sleep times more gradually, for example, cut the nap by 15 minutes and bring bedtime earlier by the say amount. Do that for 3-5 days, then reduce the nap by another 15 and move bedtime up that amount. We have had really good luck with this approach when we needed to adjust the boys' sleep schedules. One thing we have found is that longer night sleep can be more restorative than naps and a shorter sleep at night. At age five, our relatively high sleep needs son was usually out by 7:15 and up by 7. If he was really tired, he might be out by 7 at night. We do pretty short bath and bedtime routines.

Emotions can be felt very deeply at this age, in our experience. What does he say or do about the reasons for his anger?

My DD also needs a lot of sleep. She required 12-13 hours at age 5. Now at age 8 she needs 10.5 which is still really hard with working parents and the homework load plus 1 extracurricular. In reality 10.5 means sleeping at 8:30 and up at 7:00. she really needs up at 6;30 when we are both working and she will never be able to be asleep by 8:00. It always shows in her mood/behavior (along with her need for regular snacks/food).

I would try to get rid of the melatonin, but I'd do whatever needed to get enough sleep. Kids who need sleep need sleep, otherwise no one is happy. I'd also discuss sleep needs with pediatrician, but if you look at research, most kids don't get enough sleep. Gifted kids often don't need as much sleep as others…but not always.

good luck!

Just curious, how much homework does he have and is it even worthwhile? Five is really young to go to school all day and then have more busywork at night, imo. Maybe he's mad about that... I would have been. :-)

Tonight's homework was decorating a gingerbread man and writing a story. 30 minutes?
Last night was common core math packet. Decomposing the number ten by writing 11 math sentences. Our ds has never done addition, somo had to try and explain the addition sign, equals sign etc. Then we had to move beads on a bracelets and write a math equation for each bead. Our ds doesn't have the best handwriting and is just learning to write some numbers correctly. So, that took a little longer. The homework isn't every night, but they are bumping it up. Plus we have to read with them a lot and practice spelling words and counting too.

It's a little crazy

I agree ConnectingDots and I still get kind of mad about the amount of homework in 3rd grade. Luckily, for us there isn't much busy work but more project based homework (3 weeks to put together a project on a country, a greek myth, and explorer etc). But still the occasional math and spelling homework can take 20-30 minutes. Which is a lot for a kid that needs an early bedtime.

I actually think my DD had more homework (and it was definitely busy work kind) in kinder and first than she's had in second and third.

My DD had a lot more homework in 2nd and 3rd grade than she has now in 4th, and it was much more poorly managed in terms of how much time she had to complete it.

Your little guy has a long school day. Ours get on the bus at 7:30 for an 8:00 start and get out at 2:30 most days, and just after noon on Wednesdays. They usually stay at Boys and Girls Club until I can pick them up around 5:30 or 6:00, so they are gone for longer, but that sounds like a difficult school day for you to manage.

Wait? What? Are you serious? It never would have occurred to me in a million years that there were schools like this. What's going on here?

My ds6 has always needed a lot of sleep too. At 5 it would have still been common for him to be in bed at 6.30 and asleep shortly afterwards. He also could do long afternoon sleeps then go back to bed at 6.30 up to the age of 3 or 4. But if your son is needing help to get to sleep now it is different. Maybe you could negotiate the homework issue and just work on keeping him awake until 5.30 then putting him to bed for the night. It is a shame he will not see his dad but it is not forever.

I'd explain the situation to the teacher and refuse some of the homework. Are all of other kids doing all of this stuff? Is it a big deal if it isn't done? I ask because last year DS had lots of homework in grade 1 and I ended up being the volunteer that marked ALL of it. About 1/3 of the class did all of it, 1/3 did some and another 1/3 of the class didn't do any of it. I mentioned it to the teacher the first week and she said "oh it doesn't matter, I can't base any grade on any homework anyway". Gee, thanks for wasting my time.

I've never heard of a kid being graded on homework in kindergarten... I'd vote set a timer for 15 minutes and when the timer's up, homework time is over!

DS5.3 sounds a lot like your son. The only difference is the sleep. While DS needs sleep, he really cannot go to sleep on his own. Absolutely no naps because then he'd be up all night and even without naps and while being really tired, he needs Melatonin and Hydroxyzine and still can take anywhere between 1-5hrs to fall asleep at night. He needs some 12hrs of sleep to be himself but hardly ever gets it.
I know that a lot of the tiredness we see in DS is caused by Melatonin. It helps him fall asleep but it does NOT help him get enough good sleep and just makes him drowsy during the day. So we've been slowly cutting back on the dosage at the expense of him going to bed later and later.

We've also experimented a lot with Omega3 and it makes a huge difference for us. But the gummy ones are just too low dosage to make any difference in our boys. They both get this one in their almond milk (it's also great to hide in yogurt) http://www.amazon.com/Barleans-Organic-Oils-Ultra-Potency/dp/B007R9TSSW/ref=pd_sim_hpc_1 ... it's makes our usually low verbal DS3.5 turn into a chatter box (when he's comfortable) and it gets DS5.3 be a very easy kid to manage, we have a lot less sensory problems, concentration problems. I ran out 2 days ago and waiting for new Amazon shipment and DS5.3 turned into a little maniac. Can't concentrate for 5 seconds, is angry, extremely sensitive, doesn't want to do anything at all. I can't wait for the UPS guy to get here so I can give him what his little body clearly needs! When we tried the gummy omegas it made no difference. The dosage was very low.

Wow - I may have to get that supplement!!

DS had a half day due to snow. He's happy and calm and been having a great day. The school day is just too long.

Our school has decided that they are going to be "the best" and they have bumped up all the common core stuff. Last year they had to know a set of sight words by recognizing them by Christmas. This year they have a spelling test. DS is doing fabulous with his reading, but the spelling is slightly harder, and with poor handwriting it is harder yet. The school does almost no hands on are developmentally appropriate education. It's all paper, cutting, pasting and writing. Not hardly and crafts or fun learning. No wonder ds is miserable.

The school wants to challenge the students, but they aren't doing it in age appropriate ways. Ds could be a whiz at math if they would use hands on manipulatives. If we had a montessori he would have been out of this school and probably constructing a bridge or something innovative and learning at the same time. Teach smarter, not harder

The whole Common Core nonsense in Kindergarten is one of the reasons why we pulled DS5.3 out after the first trimester. Now we're doing a lot of play and fun and little bit of actual guided school work. I just let him lead.

Forgive me because I haven't read the entire thread, but pediatric anxiety and depression often present with the symptoms you describe - sleep disturbances, distractibity, and irritability (note depressed kids rarely- I mean very rarely- seem sad, but rather irritable). A screening by a pediatrician is a good idea, but honestly is takes a therapist a good long session (often multiple sessions) to diagnose such problems. 15 minutes with a ped isn't enough to diagnose ADHD, anxiety, or depression.

This might be way off base, but I wanted to mention it.

In our region 5 year olds have a legally required nap or at least quiet time during the day. That's normal, some kids still need a nap at 5.
DS6 has had trouble adjusting to no down time plus homework in 1st. His teacher was not understanding about not doing homework. Luckily in our district part time homeschool is allowed. We now keep him home the first 2 hours of the day, he wasn't learning anything then anyways. He now does no homework except the occasional short project ( all homework was derived from the subjects he gets at home so now it's up to us).
I would at least ask the teacher how long she estimates homework should take. If she answers 10 min, then cut it off then. They may be underestimating the time.

You know your child better than the one size fits all system does, don't be afraid to firmly do whatever needs to be done. Whether its dropping off late, doing no further homework, etc. This is kindergarten and how a child feels about it is their foundation or lack thereof for the years to come.

How draconian! What's the punishment for children who don't comply with this legal requirement?

hnz1979, I am coming back to this a bit late but fwiw - here are a few thoughts for you:


I'm so glad your school is willing to look further and do additional testing - it sounds like his teachers and school staff really care, and that's wonderful!


This happened with my younger 2e dd (still does). The "knowing everything" (for her) was a combo of both self-confidence in a bit of a twisted way (shd couldn't see that other people might have equally valid ideas) *and* insecurity that she might not know something correctly - and that part (jmo) seemed to be driven by her feverishly attempting to not let the world know she was struggling with a challenge.


Your ds is in school, but he's still very young. It really *is* difficult to tease out challenges and what's up when our children are so young. I realize this doesn't sound very helpful, but I wanted to reassure you that you're doing all the "right" things, and that as time goes by and you collect more data through observing, testing, talking to your ds etc - the issues will start to become clearer. It's a journey, not a one-stop-get-the-answer-and-move-on thing, but you will get to a place where what you are seeing now will make sense.


My first thought here is - of course his handwriting skills are poor! He's 5! I am surprised that any school would send home 20 minutes worth of math homework for a 5 year old - but... maybe the assignment wasn't supposed to last 20 minutes? His processing speed score was really low on his first round of ability testing (per your note above).. which might mean he's got a challenge impacting handwriting, and that in turn makes an assignment like this particularly frustrating and/or time consuming. Have you tried scribing for him at home? I would *not* be the slightest bit worried about either not having him do the homework, cutting it off at 10 minutes (which is what our district guidelines are for homework *maximum time* - 10 minutes per grade level), or scribing for him. In fact, I would be sure to try scribing based on what you've said about his handwriting issues just to see if there is a significant difference in either time spent or frustration with his work etc.

Oops... I have more to say but have to go! More later

Hang in there,

polarbear