DS5.1 has always had problems with following directions when pointed to something, or even when you describe where the item is. Say you want him to give you a water bottle that he has on the floor among his lego blocks, games, books (he keeps a lot of stuff spread on the floor, just like I tend to spread it everywhere). You point to it, he's standing right next to it, you say it's next to "xyz" on your "left /right side" or "behind you" "in front of you" and while he knows the meaning and looks in that general direction, he still does NOT see the object? He just had a school required vision exam for Kindergarten entry and everything was fine but that was just a very basic check up. On the other hand, give him a book / print out page / video game on a tablet and he notices every little detail instantly! He sees connections in his games I don't see after looking at it many times! It's like he scans it instantly and it just stands out for him from that point on. I just don't understand how he can be so "blind" to everything around him and so tuned into something in his face? I am trying to find a developmental optometrist that would take our insurance but makes me wonder if anyone else has kids with similar issues? And I know he really DOES see well overall say when we are outside, the board at school, riding in the car. It's something about the distance of maybe 2-10 feet around him that throws him off?
I should add, he is formally diagnosed with PDD-NOS and has a lot of sensory issues and I know that following hand gestures / directions is something that kids on the spectrum struggle with but I don't think that's it either. We are seeing very few of his old PDD-NOS related behaviors but this has been an issue since he was a toddler. DS3.6 who has a lot more autistic traits follows my gestures and directions way better than his older brother. I just don't get it?
Mk13, I think there are probably quite a few possible reasons that this happens - I have two kids who were just like this at his age - two kids with two very different challenges! My dd with the vision issues, for sure! But also my ds with dyspraxia - same thing - and he's never had vision issues at all.
Do you think there's a chance you could find a regular eye dr who will do some of the same types of evals that DOs do? FWIW, after our dd had her first DO eval, we were talking about it at school and I found out our school's librarian had convergence insufficiency and was doing many of the same type of exercises my dd did in VT - but she had her diagnosis and treatment through her regular eye dr.
Mk13, I think there are probably quite a few possible reasons that this happens - I have two kids who were just like this at his age - two kids with two very different challenges! My dd with the vision issues, for sure! But also my ds with dyspraxia - same thing - and he's never had vision issues at all.
Do you think there's a chance you could find a regular eye dr who will do some of the same types of evals that DOs do? FWIW, after our dd had her first DO eval, we were talking about it at school and I found out our school's librarian had convergence insufficiency and was doing many of the same type of exercises my dd did in VT - but she had her diagnosis and treatment through her regular eye dr.
polarbear
DS5 handles any eye doctor visits really poorly. He's super light sensitive so once it got to the doctor just shining a big of light into his eyes, his SPD kicked in and we were done. So I'm not sure how much we can even get checked out. He had a big of a lazy eye when he was a toddler so had his eyes dilated when he was about 3 years old and it was a total nightmare. He would not sit still for a second to do anything. He is the same child we are concerned about having dyslexia so I wonder if that too can be related in any way. His teacher is keeping an eye on that and said she will let us know by Thanksgiving (parent conferences) if she thinks we need to check more into dyslexia or other issues. Or maybe he just can't see any single objects in that mid range distance because he's too focused on seeing EVERYTHING at once? It just gets really frustrating at times. It's like he's making fun of me not seeing what is right under his nose, but I know he's not doing it on purpose
hmm, I just read some basic info about dyspraxia (it's been a while since the last time I ready anything about it) and it fits him 99%! The only thing that is not correct for him is that he's very verbal and overall very good with the use of the language, great vocab, etc. But was quite speech delayed initially. But everything else is spot on for him. What specialist would we need to see for dyspraxia?
Are you sure that he is not seeing them vs. being very into whatever else he's doing and not caring to stop that in order to look for whatever you want him to get? We notice that at times with our DS.
What was the treatment for his lazy eye? Lazy eye can be a symptom of severe farsightedness. We went through three eye doctors before we learned DS is severely farsighted. The last one is very knowledgeable about kid's eye issues.
BTW, we were amazed to learn how bad the farsightedness was, given that he read constanstly pretty early, was great at complex puzzles, etc.
DS has always had problems finding things. His is definitely related to vision (astigmatism related amblyopia); we were referred to an opthamologist from the pediatrician and that came under medical insurance.
Pure speculation, but the limited range where the issue happens made me think of "convergence insufficiency."
p.s. Just saw your additional post, lazy eye is the common name for amblyopia. DS skips words when reading, has trouble forming letters in the right sequence. Along with fine motor control, these are all getting better a year after he finished patching.
Are you sure that he is not seeing them vs. being very into whatever else he's doing and not caring to stop that in order to look for whatever you want him to get? We notice that at times with our DS.
What was the treatment for his lazy eye? Lazy eye can be a symptom of severe farsightedness. We went through three eye doctors before we learned DS is severely farsighted. The last one is very knowledgeable about kid's eye issues.
BTW, we were amazed to learn how bad the farsightedness was, given that he read constanstly pretty early, was great at complex puzzles, etc.
He's trying really hard to look for whatever it is he's supposed to bring / find. It might be something very obvious and he's right next to it and still doesn't notice it.
convergence insufficiency ... sounds like a possibility too!
his lazy eye self-corrected itself within a few months. He was still struggling with some residual tortocollis issues back then and weak muscle strength on the affected side but as we worked on that in his PT and OT, the eye issues corrected themselves too. But he definitely still has muscle weakness, big time clumsiness, problems with spacial awareness, and all the other things on the dyspraxia list, so that would be my best bet right now. It would even explain the few autistic-like traits he has but they come and go.
hmm, I just read some basic info about dyspraxia (it's been a while since the last time I ready anything about it) and it fits him 99%! The only thing that is not correct for him is that he's very verbal and overall very good with the use of the language, great vocab, etc. But was quite speech delayed initially. But everything else is spot on for him. What specialist would we need to see for dyspraxia?
Mk13, one of the hallmarks of dyspraxia is that it impacts each individually in a very individual-specific sort of way. Most dyspraxic people do *not* have all the symptoms. My dyspraxic ds had great vocab and use of the spoken language - once he actually started talking, but he was speech delayed and never did any of the babbling etc that most young infants/toddlers do.
DS was diagnosed through his neuropsych eval (his actual diagnosis is "Developmental Coordination Disorder" but DCD and Dyspraxia are essentially the same thing. The other specialists we've seen have been OT for his fine motor challenges (associated with his dyspraxia) and an SLP for an expressive language disorder (which may or may not be technically related, but it feels like they are part of the same overall set of issues, just from my perspective as his parent ).
The other thing our neuropsych showed us was a chart which shows what a large amount of overlap in shared symptoms between Developmental Coordination Disorder, ADHD, and ASD.
DS5 gets private OT (thankfully covered by insurance) for his sensory and motor issues, 30 minutes / week school OT for writing, and 30 minutes of school ST for pragmatic language issues. So I will check with the two OTs we have what they think. In the meanwhile I might as well get a referral to neuro-psych since it will take some 6 months to get in. I can always cancel the appointment if we no longer needed. We were looking for answers other than ASD anyways as we don't feel the diagnosis fits anymore (and his therapists agree)
I don't have any diagnosis beyond rather severe but well corrected myopia (except maybe this one: ), but I can stare into a drawer for several minutes trying to find a specific spatula/knife and *not* see it when it is right in front of me.
It drives my husband nuts ("It's right there!!!").
I don't have any diagnosis beyond rather severe but well corrected myopia (except maybe this one: ), but I can stare into a drawer for several minutes trying to find a specific spatula/knife and *not* see it when it is right in front of me.
It drives my husband nuts ("It's right there!!!").
I know I shouldn't be laughing, knowing you must be struggling with this ... but I have to use the "It's right there!!!" phrase every time my husband and my stepson open the fridge! lol
his lazy eye self-corrected itself within a few months. He was still struggling with some residual tortocollis issues back then and weak muscle strength on the affected side but as we worked on that in his PT and OT, the eye issues corrected themselves too.
The problem with amblyopia isn't the muscle control. It is that if the eyes aren't working together or one of them is doing its own thing, then the brain learns to disregard information coming in from that eye.
My right eye stopped drifting when I was young after extended all-day patching. That strengthened the muscles, but the coordination between the eyes and how the brain handles input from my right eye was never corrected. This is why the modern patching routine is for only a couple of hours a day or using dilating drops. Example, if I try to read with just my right eye, I read about 1/3 the rate I do with my left eye. Everything is quite clear, but the words don't stay still and are hard to keep visually in order.
A casual covering of the good eye while he tries to do something visual with the lazy eye, might give you a quick insight into whether the issue is along those lines.
I just took DS to a neuro-opthamologist to check his eyes. His OT who has had a lot of training in vision issues recommended this (rather than a regular opthamologist). DS had a sixth nerve palsy after an accident and skull fractures/concussion and one of his eyes wasn't tracking at all. As the nerve in his brain healed over the course of several months, the eye gradually started tracking. Even though DS's eyes looked normal after about 5 months, he still was not doing well on depth perception tests. If the eyes are not able to focus together, there is stereo-blindness. DS's OT noted major issues with his tracking, mentioned convergence insuffiency, etc. so the neuro-opthamologist checked all of that. She asked DS to track a slowly moving object in front of his face and DS's eyes immediately crossed and went in different directions. The neuro opthamologist said his tracking issues are very severe and must be from the TBI. She told me we can try vision therapy, but sounded doubtful that even that would help. She said he would not be able to drive, find things in the house, etc. I asked her about reading, since DS reads very well for a 6 year old so she gave him something to read and watched his eyes. She then announced "Clearly he doesn't have a problem with his eyes." I said "huh?" completely baffled. She said that DS's eyes track completely normal when reading and therefore he cannot possibly have these eye tracking issues that look so obvious when you ask him to track a moving object. He can't track "on command" (due to his dyspraxia/DCD or something else, I don't know). If a kid is having tracking issues i think most of them will have problems tracking when reading, lose their place, have fluency issues, etc. She also gave him a depth perception test and this time he did great on it, vs. in early Aug. he wasn't seeing half the test at the other eye doc. So it could be his eyes weren't completely focusing together until this last month or two.
In terms of the dyspraxia, it was a pediatric neurologist who first mentioned it to me when DS was 4. She didn't give him a written diagnosis but when I took DS in for a neuro-psych eval at age 6, we got the diagnosis. In the U.S. it is usually called Developmental Coordination Disorder. DS was a late talker and has some articulation and fluency issues, as well as problems with voice prosody. He also has both gross and fine motor issues. (coordination problems, hypotonia, hypermobile joints, flat feet, etc). One thing that baffles me about DS is that he has amazing visual spatial ability and visual memory, but with many people with dyspraxia, those things are big issues.
Isn't it amazing how something so basic as the ability to sense movement can be so different between individuals?
On the subject of searching, my DH has trouble finding things. His issue is the partial search. I think he just somehow has a sense of probability that intrudes into tasks where completeness counts. He expects that when he's searched 75% of a location that the odds are it's not there. Probably would work great for covering a lot of ground, say for hunting animals that tend to exist in large herds. But a terrible strategy for finding a receipt in filing cabinet.
How is your DS with following the trajectory of a ball?
Like Zen Scanner said, convergence insufficiency. DS5 had this and before 8 months of vision therapy he was exactly the same way. Would not see something that was right in front of him. Much better now. Actually the only time he doesn't see it is when his mind is somewhere else or he just doesn't want to see it...:-)
I would have his eyes checked. And you can have perfect vision and still have convergence insufficiency.
Pointing is so complicated. First deciding from the speaker's eyes what what direction they are looking. Then finding their outstretched arm, which is also not what you are looking for. And then if you find the finger on the arm (also not what you are looking for) that takes one's gaze away from the face, potentially missing further info such as little facial movements that indicate more specifically how far away (I do a little chin lift if I'm pointing to something far away). And then imagining their finger if it suddenly stretched a great length in a straight line. A length that differs from instance to instance depending on how far away the object is. And then focusing in on a little sphere of space at the end of that imaginary line to search, now with a search image of the object that is not eyes or arm or finger or line. How complicated is that. It's kind of amazing anyone can do it.
Of course you can be reasonably okay at all that stuff above and still not be able to find the object. I lift my arm to point, DH thinks, "75% chance she means on the table", breaks eye contact and bolts for the table. So there's patience.
It might be fun to play a find-the-hidden-jellybean type game with a laser pointer or a flashlight. See how short a time one can leave the beam on where DS can still find the jellybean.
My DS is terrible at balls also. He's gotten way better at locating things via pointing as he's gotten older, but not any better at catching a ball. When I asked I was thinking pointing was sort of like an imaginary throwing motion... but if so then maybe getting better at one would make you better at the other. There goes that idea.
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