Ds 7.5-yr-old recently took the WJ-III and scored in the average range. I was hoping he was going to score better than last year (98/99th) so he would qualify for DYS. Instead, ds was using his fingers to subtract and refused to add/subtract double digits. Same child who did this computational math at home within a few minutes.

This year, ds 7.5 was homeschooled and he accelerated through a general curriculum series for grades 1-6. Previously, he had been in two gifted schools. At the first gifted school, he rapidly accelerated through the pre-k/k/1st grade curriculum within 2 1/2 months and we were told that he was pg, but been struggling to get the test results to reflect this (though last year's WJ-III came close).

My son seems to have text anxiety issues or a discrepancy between test scores and performance at home. I'm not sure how to get to the heart of the problem or what stages to take. His reading, writing, and math scores do not reflect anywhere close to what he's been doing at home or even did last year at school.

We're debating about putting ds into public schools, though he's likely to be bored and pulled out within a few weeks or months. Still, he's been really complaining about the lack of friends or finding someone like him, which would be nearly impossible to find with our local public school.

Ds was born with sensory processing issues, dyspraxia, hypotonia (low muscle tone), global developmental delays, and some physical stuff. He's had tons of therapy (pt/ot/speech/feeding/vision/water/neurofeedback) and interventions - 7.5 yrs worth. Some of the physical developments are slowly starting to catch up, but the social/emotional part seems to be lagging.

Any suggestions, tips, or help??? I am frustrated. A cousin mentioned Sylvan for a similar issue with their son, but I'm not sure.

So you have DYS qualifying IQ scores but not achievement? Could you try a portfolio? I believe that they'd still like to see all scores, even those that don't qualify, but it might be worth a shot if you think that it would benefit him to be in the program.

We've struggled over the years as well with ideas as to what is wrong but no direction as to how to help. Did you get any input from the tester as to what types of scaffolding or accommodations for those disabilities might help?

Eta: with my "less" 2e kid, she has some of the same dx you mention and simply giving her extra time has helped as has a quiet environment for testing with distractions minimized. Did you see a difference between the timed and untimed portions of the WJ? My one with sensory issues and dyspraxia/dysgraphia dxs recently took the WIAT and the variation btwn the fluency and untimed segments was huge. It was definitely enough that it would have been usable to show 99.9th achievement on untimed tasks if we had needed to show that she was achieving at that level but overall had depressed scores due to speed.

Have you considered trying a different achievement test? The Kauffman or the Weshler ones? It might have just been an off day for him, or he didn't click with the tester.

I personally can't recommend you put a kid like him into public school. There's a slim, slim possibility it will work out, and a rather large possibility that it will be crisis-inducing for him. I can't see that it's worth the risk. Have you looked into Boy Scouts? Or martial arts? Some other sort of group activity that he's not previously done, and that's isn't directly tied to intelligence. Something he can connect to other kids his own age with.

I don't know how close you are to a decent-sized city, but you could check your local chapter of Mensa and see how many kids they have involved in their program. Also, you could check if there are any robotics teams in your area. They are often available to kids and adults of nearly any age.. so he could be working with teenagers, college kids and adults.

My son had the Weschler a couple of years ago. The results came back too scattered and inconsistent. I was advised by a 2e expert last June to have ds in neurofeedback and follow a general curriculum series before having him be re-tested.

I admit that I jumped the gun by having him get re-tested with the WJ-III achievement test within a year, but I was starting to panic on what to do since he was rapidly accelerating through the general curriculum series. So that's a mea culpa.

Still, I was reading the book, The Defiant Child, today and think that ds is scared of failure; he's a bit of a perfectionist. He likes to be in total control over his environment and has been resenting the fact that he's a child and not an adult who lacks absolute power/control. I don't think he considered while taking the WJ-III that it was for his benefit or the consequences if he did not perform to his ability. He even asked after I initially got the results whether there was another test he could take. I said yes, but that perhaps it would be best to wait for a bit.

Cricket2 - DYS accepted our portfolio BUT my son still lacks a qualifying score with either the Weschler or WJ-III. The thing is - he knew he didn't put any effort into the WJ-III since he told me shortly after we received the test results and I nearly blew my top when I read that he used his fingers to subtract. He was playing a game with the tester and the test.

Epoh - I do agree with you that the public school would be crisis inducing for him. Last June a 2E expert advised us to find another private school or homeschool. She said that we wouldn't get any help from the public schools - or we could send him to public schools but be prepared for failure or to withdraw him again. She said that we would get nothing from the public schools in our area. Today, I had a look at the K-5 reading list for the local public school. Well, you can imagine. It's Frog and Toad for grade 2. And ds has already read the Secret series for grade 5.

Ds is an only child and so desperate to find a soul mate and playdates. Everyone seems to be in formal schools (public or private) around here. It's been a source of aggravation for both of us this year with homeschooling and been a difficult journey at times socially and emotionally. I looked at Mensa nationally, but they want test scores - but perhaps I will submit last year's results so he can get in!

My plan is to try the Boy Scouts, martial arts, or some other programs (ie. soccer, robotics, etc.) in the fall, but it's been a challenge this year with a lot of defiance and resistance from him at times. He does connect with kids at church during Sunday school so that's good.

This summer he's been going to some of the library programs (arts/crafts stuff) so he can be with other kids but he always seems to want more, more, more and is desperate to really click with one person. Been driving me nuts some days. One minute he expects me to conjure up a pg kid like him with the same interests, which is impossible to find locally (not even sure nationally). Next minute, he's a bit bossy and manipulative with other kids or barely containing control over himself (ie. anger, frustration, etc.) for an entire day. I had to institute a monster time out today (ie. name calling, threats, rudeness, disrespectful, etc.). I'm exhausted from it all some days.

The thing about the WJ-III Achievement Tests is that each subtest is designed to determine "achievement" in a very specific skill - but (jmo) not necessarily the best tool to use if you're trying to assess where a student is in terms of achievement relative to curriculum studied (we don't have MAP testing here, but I would think MAP would be a good instrument to use, tests such as the CAT-5 or in some instances state testing etc). If you're testing with the WJ-III to get scores to get into DYS or other gifted programs, and you're seeing results that don't match expectations, than I'd look at two things - one you've already mentioned - testing conditions - was your ds anxious, what was the environment like etc - were there barriers to success that had nothing to do with the test. The other thing I'd look at is what each subtest specifically measures, and compare the results to what you are seeing in your ds' work. Look at how the questions for that subtest were asked, what kind of response was required, and was the subtest timed - things that might impact results but aren't tied directly to the knowledge being tested.

Have you thought about asking for an IQ test through your public school district? What type of 2e expert did you see in June? What was the reason for the neurofeedback recommendation? Sorry for all the questions! Just curious -

Best wishes,

polarbear

Yea, I agree that the WJ-III Achievement Test is not necessarily the best test but this is test our school district uses and DYS accepts. Last year, I sat in the small closet-type room (on the other side of a divider) when the test was administered and therefore I overheard everything. I had to bit my tongue at times because ds told the tester then that he was in kindergarten and would thus only do kindergarten math and no more. Sigh. He's had issues with timed tests; he panics with Xtramath (https://www.xtramath.org/).

This year I only saw the tester briefly who gave the WJ-III by another person and another place. I wasn't in the room to overhear what comments my son may have made - though the tester provided some examples (ie. using fingers to subtract) on her evaluation.

To my knowledge, the school district doesn't offer any IQ test. They definitely don't offer anything in terms of gifted since we live in MA where giftedness is not state mandated or even recognized. After the WJ-III exam, I was told by the special needs coordinator that there are no gifted services or anything related - which I already knew.

I pursued the WJ-III because I didn't want to shell out any more money - or at least not at this point - and ds had an easier time last year with it than the Weschler. We've already shelled out a lot of money this year on medical expenses so I'm trying to mitigate expenses as much as possible. Our insurance paid for the Weschler two years ago, but the tester was terrible and we got a bunch of misdiagnoses.

Last June, we saw 2E expert, Dr. Lovecky. When we saw her then, she said she couldn't fully evaluate my ds because he was too scattered, inconsistent, impulsive, inattentive, etc. She based her verbal suggestions/advice on previous evaluations since she knew she wouldn't get far with ds at the time. She advised us to address the scatteredness/inconsistencies, work on the special needs (ADHD-symptoms, eye contact, sensory, etc.), and follow a general curriculum series to give ds some structure - which we did and are continuing to do.

Dr. Lovecky thought ds had ADHD and initially asked whether we had considered medication for him. I then immediately asked about neurofeedback since I had read about it actually here on this Davidson Gifted Forum. We then no longer talked about medication and talked about neurofeedback and how it might get to the root of ds's problems.

Last August, I took ds to neurofeedback provider #1. She's a brain injury expert and survivor herself. She said that my son's severe plagiocephaly (flattening and facial asymmetry) from in utero was a traumatic brain injury and that sticking a helmet on helped to re-shape his head did little to nothing to address the neurological wiring inside.

She had a look at his actual brain waves and confirmed that the ADHD diagnosis was, in fact, a misdiagnosis. My son has excessive delta waves - which are associated with a brain injury, delirium, or intoxication (not ADHD); he's got normal theta brain waves. An ADHD, by contrast, would have high or excessive theta brain waves.

Neurofeedback provider #2 (who accepted our insurance and that's the reason why we switched!) confirmed what neurofeedback provider #1 had said and believed it was accurate.

If you take a look at the symptoms of a brain injury (http://www.biausa.org/brain-injury-children.htm), they're very similar to an ADHD/PDD/gifted diagnosis and other disorders so it can easily get confusing and misdiagnosed. If no one recognizes plagiocephaly or other conditions for what they truly are, then you're between a rock and a hard place and you often can't get the services or what you really need.

Personally, I think the neurofeedback and previous therapies have made a world of difference, but that his brain and body is still catching up to a stable state. I've been doing more cognitive behavioral therapy with him (ie. The Feeling Good Handbook) and this seems to be helping.

So, he's taken the WISC once and the WJ twice, is that correct? Was he close to 99.9th on the WISC enough that it seems likely that he would hit that with some remediation of his disabilities? I ask b/c there are some kids (I have one) for whom the disabilities may be something for which they can learn to compensate over time, but the scores for DYS may not be in the cards. My one who is seriously 2e did hit DYS #s on the WISC at 7 and has had many ceiling scores since that put her awfully close on later testing but we've never applied for a few reasons mainly: 1) she's not consistently there or there at the same time on ability & achievement, and 2) I don't think that DYS would be a magic bullet to solving her problems.

I guess that I see DYS more as advocacy support and social networking for kids who really need that. My oldest really needs the company of HG peers, but my 2e one tends to be drawn more toward people who share her artistic and creative interests than intellect.

I guess that what I'm getting at is two fold. How much do you need DYS and is that need so major that it is worth retesting again? Is the money and the possible stress worth it? That is something only you can know, of course.

I think Cricket2 has some really good points.

It really sounds like your son is throwing the test somewhat, which must be maddening. But I am similar in attitude to Cricket2 with my most 2e child, in that every time I feel cross about results that I think are an under-estimate of her true potential I remind myself that her uneven performance on tests reflects her uneven performance in life. Yes there IS a degree of ability in there that isn't captured by testing and it IS maddening. But conversely that's the reality of her interface with the world - she does often get along very well with HG/HG+ kids, boys in particular, quirky/2e boys even more so, but she's not ready to share a class with them so much as ready to climb trees with them...

In her case she's very compliant and doesn't throw tests so we at least know she did the best she could with that test on that day (most of the time), even if I feel that the test is maybe hiding/missing some of what she knows/can do. So you've got another level of frustration in there - but the same lesson is maybe applicable. If this is how he responds to testing is it indicative of how he would respond to a normative classroom? If so, it sounds crazy to put him in one, a different solution to his social needs is perhaps a better idea.

I also agree with cricket2 and MumOfThree -


It sounds like you've found good help through the neurofeedback and other behavioral therapies, which is great! Our 2e EG ds also had a tough time at that age finding other children for playmates, but in hindsight for our ds, I feel the challenge was as much with the challenge E as it was with the gifted E - now that he's older and we have found a school situation and have helped him get through those early years of understanding, remediating, accommodating etc for the challenges, he's had a much *much* easier time fitting in socially at school and in other groups. Have we been able to find him a friend who's also EG/PG? Honestly, I don't know! But he has found friends who have similar interests and he has found that he's interested in things that other kids are interested in more so at this point - and I think so much of it is related to him becoming more comfortable with his challenges.

Hang in there, life can be so frustrating and discouraging when you're parenting a young 2e child - but it will get better. Just keep doing what you're doing - plugging away at understanding and trying to get him the best support and help you can.

Best wishes,

polarbear

ps - we also never applied to DYS for our 2e ds - when he was in early elementary, his WJ-III Achievement scores were too scattered due to his challenge E, and to be honest, I didn't see that it would offer up anything that would be helpful enough for us to bother putting together a portfolio. We tried instead to help with the high ability through making sure ds had projects/reading/videos/etc that would stimulate his brain (in areas he was really interested in) while we plugged away at helping remediate/accommodate/understand his challenges. Once he reached middle school his achievement test scores (with accommodations) started to correlate much more with his ability. We still haven't applied to DYS because it's not something we've felt we needed to do at this point, so I'm not sure what type of achievement testing is used at middle school level - but for other talent searches you can use Explore/SAT/etc scores - and ds has done *much* better on those types of tests.

Thanks so much. You are correct. Ds is throwing the test and this is just part of dealing with a 2e kid (as maddening as it can be). Of course, like many 2e parents, you're desperate for help and sound advice, which you've given me and I am grateful for. And like many, you can feel like there's no light at the end of the tunnel. It can be really exhausting being with ds7.5 all day; that's not to say I enjoy being with him for the vast majority of the time (delete the meltdowns please though). I

It would be nice to get help in addressing ds's social/emotional issues as well as his academic needs with the public schools. BUT realistically, this isn't going to happen. I know this, but some days I think maybe.... If I can just.... Ok, if I just sprinkle some pixie dust? Where's my magic wand to change things?

Cricket2 - ds has taken WISC 1st; WJ-III x2. Even Dr. Lovecky felt the scores on the WISC were too scattered and inconsistent to give her a true reflection of his abilities or potential. The first WJ-III came closer, but as I mentioned, ds blew off the math part completely (which drove me crazy).

I'm not sure if I need the social networking that DYS would afford, but my ds7.5 has been desperate for it lately. Will this motivate him or will he be willing to work on his test anxiety? I don't know. Possibly. Maybe not now, but perhaps in another year or two. Since it doesn't cost anything to have the WJ-III, presumably my son can try each year if the school district is willing.

MumofThree and Polarbear - yes, I'm being delusional to think ds could handle a public school experience. That's irrational. I was reminded yesterday when my ds was talking about Jane Goodall and Charles Darwin. Oh yea, normal 7.5-yr-olds talk about this stuff (lol); forget about the sensory/anxiety/attentional issues that goes out of sync during big developments or the reactive hypoglycemia at times.

I think I started to question it because I keep seeing posts on this forum or others about pg kids who were in public schools (being accelerated or not). After thinking about it though, it dawned on me that these pg kids who were in public schools were most likely NOT 2e. That's a huge, huge difference - which can be easily overlooked.

Dr. Lovecky had advised us to treat ds like a special needs child and to concentrate on the special needs, which we have done and continue to do.

Ds7.5 recognizes that there isn't someone like him around who thinks like he does or plays like he does. He's desperate to find someone who shares his love of history and in particular Mesoamerica - which is impossible to find. I said that he's got a supercharged brain, but he doesn't always have the brakes, the steering wheel, and sometimes isn't on the right track. Today, I was talking to him about being on the learning track (i.e. doing a puzzle, karate, reading, etc.) rather than the trouble track (name calling, taking off the neighbor's basement vent, etc.) and going through the advantages/disadvantages of them.

I do think eventually ds might qualify for DYS. I think with time, maturity, and concentrating on the special needs, he'll eventually be able to handle a tests and his fear of them. Of course, if a gifted school didn't insist on using Xtramath for kindergarten kids, then perhaps ds would have been in a different situation. Then again, it's hard to say. Still, I don't think making him use Xtramath helped at all.

Polarbar - I think you're right that the trick is finding things to stimulate these kids' brains and to keep them out of mischief or spiraling down a rabbit hole. I agree that you've got to plug away with helping to remediate/accommodate/understand their challenges.

We bought a house last spring and the previous owner left a copy of the Feeling Good Handbook (quite a handy find). There is a chapter on test and performance anxiety in the book. At some point, I will try to use it with ds and some of the other chapters in the book.

A couple thoughts here:

I went back to look at your old posts because I can never keep anyone's situation straight and remember what the history looks like! It looks like you did the IQ testing about two years ago looking at this thread: http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....17421/WPPSI_and_DYS_help.html#Post117421

and wound up with erratic results as you mention here and in that thread:

It does sound like his academic performance outstrips these IQ scores by a good deal, but with scores in that range, you'd have to see a significant jump in numbers to get DYS level IQ scores. You might, like you mention, have better luck with continuing to retest the achievement and hope that that will work with a portfolio rather than trying to pair IQ with portfolio. 2e kids may have areas that will always be depressed by the second "e" on both IQ and achievement, but it sounds like the WJ has been the closer score thus far. Like others mentioned, you might want to give a shot with the EXPLORE instead, though, as he's getting closer to 3rd grade.

I'd probably focus more on the test anxiety and special needs as you are, though, than worrying about whether any testing you do will net DYS qualifying scores. If you approach it with the idea in mind that the testing is for those purposes (learning how to test without stressing and to gather more info on current functioning), rather than for DYS, it might take the stress off of you.

I do think that is true. It sounds like you've got special needs issues that are greater than those of the kids here who are successfully making it in public schools. My older dd is accelerated in ps and has some of the dxs you mention such as dyspraxia and SPD, but they aren't disabling to the extent that it sounds like your ds' are. It also sounds like he has more dxs. My kiddo has mild issues and, really, the only major problem she has is processing speed not keeping track with her other abilities and we have been able to accommodate that as well as recognize that she isn't going to be able to take advantage of every AP class out there, for instance, not because she isn't able enough but because the quantity becomes an overload for her.

I do believe that the more 2e a kid, the less the compensation mechanisms are there, and the more atypical s/he appears socially, the harder the fit.

Thanks Cricket2. I agree with much of what you said. The hard part seems to be figuring out when things overload ds.

Since we got the results last Saturday, I immediately dropped any mention or discussion about the WJ-III - until today.

This morning, ds brought up the WJ-III and said that was afraid of being sent to public school (where the test was administered) rather than continued to be homeschooled. He told me that he 'faked it' and that he was mad at me for having to take the test. He said he didn't think it was fair for him to take the test in the first place; I agreed. I thanked ds for his honesty.

Ds and I then had a discussion about DYS, Davidson School and tests. We both think it's crazy that there's only one school in the country for pg kids. I did tell him to forget about the test and that there's going to be plenty of other tests, chances, and other possibilities in the future for DYS or other outlets for him. I said that there were a lot of people who had supercharged brains and not in DYS, didn't test well, or didn't take that test. It's not the end of the world.

After this am, I am more convinced that ds has been in the middle of a HUGE development for the last few weeks. He's been very cranky, depressed, and unpleasant to be around since Wednesday. He didn't want to accept that he does not hold the same authority as me or another adult. He also didn't want to accept the word no.

Within the last couple of days, ds has been able to recognize that 1) there are consequences to his behavior, 2) can identity positive and negative behavior, 3) others are affected by his behavior; and 4) admitted to being depressed and fearing failure. Ds told me that he didn't think about the consequences when he took this test. Wow. Finally.

These are all big developments, but probably more affecting ds with due to dxs and his global delays. I'd like to think that these developments are partly due to the neurofeedback and getting to the root of his problems.

MoN you remind me of the day I picked my 3-3.5yr old DD up from preschool and was pulled aside to be told in hushed tones how badly behaved shed been that day. She'd said no to an adult and then stuck her tounge out at them. I do t know how I managed to keep a straight face. Most amusing was that this was the scope and scale of terrible behaviour requiring parental intervention, she was shocked and horrified... No chairs being thrown at teachers at this school!

Thanks so much MoN. You've hit the nail on the head. I appreciate you sharing your experiences with your dd. It's not raising kids, but these 2e kids can seem to take things to another level. I'm sorry you had issues with your dd, but it's reassuring to hear another parent go through a similar situation.

MumOfThree - when my ds was 5, he told the teacher in the pre-k/k/1st grade class that he didn't need her to learn and then wrote his own sick note. This was at a structured gifted school. The headmaster told me that ds was exhibiting behavior normally seen in 10-12-yr-olds at the time. Needless to say, my jaw dropped and I was speechless. I laugh now though.