Hi everyone. I'm relatively new here, having posted just once in the general discussion about our issues.

Currently, I'm suspecting that my 9yo son may be 2e. We are taking him for a full psych eval next week, but I'm trying to learn as much as I can ahead of time.

He is very bright, having tested into honors math and language arts. For the most part, he is enthusiastic and inquisitive.

However, for that last year or so, he has been having anger issues at school and at home, and his outbursts are becoming more frequent and severe. Right now, he really has no friends, claims that other kids make fun of him all the time and think that he's "and idiot." His teachers claim that other kids are actually trying to help him at school but his responses are too extreme. He is not violent, but has has threatened other kids, and often responds as if he were a 4-5 year old: yelling, stomping, mean faces, etc.

Lately he has resisted doing homework and participating in certain subjects in school. He freaked out over an art project, and got an F on it because he refused to do it. He still enjoys math and science, but claims that other subjects are a waste of time. He has been a straight-A student from day one, but I think this is going to end soon. He also has trouble concentrating, and takes forever getting some assignments done, such as writing.

His teachers do pile on the homework, and it often takes him 1-2 hours per night to get it done. He has indicated that all of the homework, and being around the other kids has him "stressed out" and he is begging us to home-school him. But, he can be very stubborn, and does not work well with either me or my wife. He tends to turn every disagreement into an argument (yes, we're at fault too....) and can be single minded. Thus, I'm concerned that home schooling would not solve any problems and would set him back even further socially.

I've read a lot about symptoms of various disorders. I know I'm not a professional and too emotionally involved to be objective, but the medical description of ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder) fits him pretty well. I seriously doubt that he is autistic or has Aspergers, but he might be above average on the spectrum. He shows some signs of ADD, but not all of them.

The hardest thing is getting him to open up and talk. He hates talking about his feelings or what happens to him at school, and often lies. If we try to reason with him, more often than not he just shuts down or goes into defiant mode.

Has anybody experience anything similar? Any advice?

I suspect that he is driven by anxieties and possibly depressed. I really want to help him but he freaks out at the suggestion of getting help. We tried therapy once before but he refused to participate. I know there a great little kid in there, but I don't know how to get through to him...

I recommend reading The Mislabeled Child by Drs. Brock and Fernette Eide.

They are 2e specialists and the book covers many of the more common issues.

Thanks. It looks good. Just put it in my cart at Amazon.

Also Dual Diagnosis and Misdiagnosis of the Gifted Child.

FWIW, this:


describes my DD fairly well, although she is not having outbursts to speak of at school (occasionally becomes mildly emotional) and is socially liked. I am told that ODD is a very serious disorder, though, and that DD's behavior, while problematic, is not intense or oppositional ENOUGH to warrant it, even though the descriptions do sound rather like her. She has an anxiety/depression diagnosis.

Also FWIW, our DD had outbursts similar to what you describe last year when she was in 3rd grade (and 8). This year she is much much better--the difference has been a supportive teacher (in a different school) who is helping her with her various issues when she needs it. Also last year there was a very socially adept girl bully who helped bring out the worst in her and the teacher didn't get that at all (despite at least three other 'regular' girls having trouble with this bully as well--what gives?). I think our DD has some of the Asperger's/ high-functioning autism characteristics but still think she doesn't meet all the criteria--nevertheless, in last year's environment, she was tentatively diagnosed with ODD as well as ADHD and Asperger's. From what I have read about ODD, it is very serious and sounds much more disruptive than what we have seen--so it is good you are looking into the differences between the different diagnoses. I think it's also important to consider exactly what is setting your DS off. I don't know what's a 'normal' amount of homework, but 1-2 hours for a 9-year-old seems like a lot to me. Our DD is in Montessori so for now she only has homework if she hasn't finished something during regular school time (which is unusual--two or three times so far this year). Of course I expect that to change when she goes to a more mainstream school year after next, but anyway, I don't expect it to be easy to get her to do that much. Good luck figuring all this out.

Thanks guys.

He had another outburst today and my wife picked him up early. We're keeping him home the rest of the week, since his problems have been daily.

I suspect that there might be some teasing or less overt bullying going on though the teachers might not be aware of it. He is a quirky kid, not interested in sports (a sin for a boy of that age) and loves math and science. I would not be surprised if he is a target.

Also, he is very sensitive, so even if the teasing is just a few snickers in the hallway, that might be enough to set him off. And once the other kids realize that he can be provoked, there will be no end to it.

The teachers swear that they are not aware of bullying or teasing but I cannot imagine that they see everything.

Nonetheless, tonight he is in good spirits and seems cooperative, though distracted as usual.

Hopefully, we'll figure this out soon.

Read that whole book last night. Should have got more sleep I suppose, but I'm not going to rest until I learn as much about this as I can...

I'm new to this forum and have been reading all the posts in this category with a lot of interest. Your description of your son would be identical to what I would have written about mine except my DS is 7 years old. He's currently undergoing an evaluation by psych, but it feels like it is taking a long time and in the meantime I dread every time my phone rings worrying it's the school calling about DS's latest outburst. So I've been getting my hands on whatever books I can to try to help him on my own until psych has completed their eval. So far what has helped the most is setting up a reward system. The Kazdin Method for Parenting the Defiant Child has been helpful. We still need to get to the underlying cause, but in the meantime it's helped with the outbursts. My DS really wanted to stop his behavior, but he couldn't stop himself in the moment and would just get carried off and "forget" all the anger management skills we would talk about. But having a reward system in place seems to be an aid in helping him remember and stop himself before getting swept away with negative emotions.

Hopefully we'll get some recommendations soon. We're trying to decide if we stay at his current school next year as I suspect a significant part of his behavior is from being bored at the material even though his class is supposed to differentiate for reading and math (which it really doesn't unfortunately), but if we enroll him in a school with a more rigorous curriculum will he decompensate because there's too much material and his disorganization will derail him. So it's a very stressful time for us as well. Hopefully your evaluation and ours will shed some light soon. You are definitely not alone.

Hi Silverstar, thanks for sharing your experiences. My son is similar in that he gets caught up in his outbursts and loses the ability to think rationally or apply anger management skills. He seems to want to behave better, but once he's off, that's it and only alone or quiet time will calm him down.

We're also dealing with a similar situation with curriculum. He is bored by the material that is being taught in his honors classes, but is overwhelmed by the volume of homework. His honors teacher provides non-stop homework, sometimes 2 hours a night. I find that to be too much, and my son constantly complains about not having enough free time. Part of his problem is that he's easily distracted, has trouble getting started on assignments, and difficulty focusing. But once he gets going, he's fine. Lately, he has had problems in class with rigorously timed assignments, as he usually wants more time to finish his work. He also has trouble with transitions, as once he is digging into a topic, he wants to stay on it for a while.

In addition to his social issues, all of this is leading me to believe that his learning style is not being accommodated by the school. Even in honors classes, they employ a cookie cutter, forced march approach which doesn't allow the kids to pursue their individual interests.

I would not be surprised if your son is bored. Classroom learning is limited and smart, creative kids are too often stifled. Have you tried working with him at home? I've encouraged my kids to use the Khan Academy web site any time they want.

This also describes my DD. She also has a lot (too much) homework--about an hour a day. (She is in third grade.)

Hi BSM - I think you have it exactly right that their learning styles may not be easily accommodated in traditional schools. My son is similar in that he loves to learn - he's a sponge with material that interests him. But rote learning and timed testing bore and frustrate him.

We've tried Khan academy and just teaching him on my own which has helped, but I've gotten to the point where I feel if I introduce him to new material then the gap between what he's learning in school and what he already knows and wants to learn continue to widen. Right now in first grade they're working on single digit subtraction. My son already knows multiplication and wants to work on division. Another issue is that DS is in a Spanish immersion program (and has been for the past 3 years so comprehension isn't the issue) and math is taught in Spanish. So the teacher, while saying she is differentiating him with extra material is really just giving him busy work that's not new. The school doesn't pull out for gifted programs until third grade. So we're faced with the same situation for next year unless I can have the teachers understand that their not meeting his learning needs is contributing significantly to his behavioral issues. I suspect he has ADD as well which we're in the process of evaluating.

We're taking things day by day, but I know that we can overcome these issues eventually. After all DS gets his stubbornness from me .

He sounds a little like my son, who has a Dx of PDD-NOS... my son is very, very rule-oriented and couldn't tell a lie to save his life though.

My only advise is to seek out help from experienced professionals and don't be scared to use meds.

You might find Dr Daniel Amen's book The 6 Types of ADD helpful in sorting some of this out. His book and clinic have been phenomenally helpful in sorting out our son's issues.