Twice this year, I've had to put out fires with teachers who have misinterpreted my son's intentions, words, etc., believing he was either willfully deceptive or being disrespectful and argumentative when he was just being literal and not reading social cues correctly. Last week, he was goofing around in band and hid in a supply closet during the broadcasted school announcements to scare a friend who had done the same to him the day before. The teacher, rightfully so, reprimanded him, and my son apologized and acknowledged that it was inappropriate and that he wouldn't do it again. Had the issue ended there, I wouldn't be posting here.

Alas, after my son apologized, the teacher explained that it was dangerous for him to hide in the closet because he couldn't hear the fire alarm in the closet. My son, actually wanting to reassure her that kids would be safe, corrected her and told her that if he could hear the announcements in the closet, he could most definitely hear a fire alarm.

She, of course, was furious at what she interpreted as disrespect. My son was baffled as to why she turned angry and came up upset and wondering why she was happier being wrong.

I explained to him that when one is being reprimanded by an authority figure, it was socially unacceptable to choose to correct them at that time. He said he thought he understood, but I am sure I'm going to get called on the carpet again the next time he doesn't recognize a specific nuance of the social rules.

This wasn't so much a problem when he was younger. I think he was this cute little boy that the teachers got a kick out of when he said something precocious. On a 7th grade boy who is now as tall as them, it isn't cute or precocious - it is a challenge to their authority.

When I tried to explain to the band teacher that he is literal, she said that it wasn't helping to have me defending him instead of backing her up. I told her I did back her up but wanted her to better understand him. It was clear she didn't want to.

So, what do you do? Do you just apologize or do you push to advocate and create a bigger issue? I keep looking at this and wondering just how exhausted I'm going to be putting out fires between now and when he graduates ... sigh. Sorry - just have a bit of a bad day ...

Perhaps she should apologize for disrespecting him by either being wrong or making up a lie about why being in the closet was dangerous. Using a scare tactic or otherwise to validate a simple rule seems like she was trying to be heavy handed or a vague attempt to be punitive.

Then again people who closely guard their authority and have their emotion and ego tightly wound together find all sorts of ways to be punitive. Given that band has even more room for subjective muscle flexing... nevermind... I got nuthin'...

Oh wait, except maybe one good social rule for him which has nothing to do with respecting authority or anything that may be confusing to apply:
"Unless there is a chance of injury due to false information or you are specifically told your role involves correcting someone else, don't correct others."
If the urge is overwhelming, a simple "Ah" or "Interesting" or more deviously "I hadn't thought of that" (internalized for the self, this translates to: I would never have thought of something so blatantly false) should suffice.

My interpretation of the story as told is the teacher owes your son an apology.

Your son acknowledged his inappropriate behavior, and apologized. The teacher then pressed the issue further, making an argument that was dead wrong. It is not acceptable for your son to be continued to be dressed down by an authority figure in this manner (I assume in front of all his classmates). Your son defended himself from the unfair charge, and the teacher escalated her own inappropriate behavior in response.

This is band class, not boot camp or the police station.

I vote for apologizing because that's probably the only key that works for this particular lock.

Sounds like the teacher is insecure. In your place, I wouldn't endorse an apology. Your son was matter-of-fact and rebutted a false statement. As a parent, the extent of "intervention" I would take would turn on what "angry" looked like; the context of how my son delivered the statement; and a comparison of how other students are treated in disciplinary situations.

My personal opinion is that wilfully ignorant people should be allowed to make themselves look foolish after a fair, private heads-up. The teacher would have earned more respect from her students by admitting the statement was false, but that's a lesson I'd let her learn for herself.

I'm with JonLaw on this one. It is a good lesson to learn which types of locks you are dealing with, as well. You can discuss with your son that all people deal with situations differently and that for the most part he shouldn't correct an authority figure in public. I think it is good to let your son know that he was right to take responsibility for his actions and apologize, and that even if you happen to agree with him about the further commentary, it is best to take responsibility and say no further. Especially with this teacher.

I vote for educating this teacher - and her supervisors - about the fact that your son has a disability. Again. Just because his disability is not as obvious as the child in a wheelchair or with a white cane doesn't mean he doesn't have one. This WILL get exhausting if you have to keep going through the same thing over and over. From what you have posted the common denominator is teachers who don't understand this.

I can't remember if he has an IEP or a 504 but I think it may really be time to call a team meeting and get everyone involved to understand that this CAN NOT continue to happen over and over. No you don't need to apologize. And I am afraid that it already is a bigger issue - address it now or it will keep coming up over and over again.

{hugs}

I'm trying to see this from both sides. Looking at details, your son was right about being able to hear the fire alarm. On the other hand, looking at the big picture, the teacher was right, and the details are irrelevant.

At the time, she was probably very stressed out, especially if the same thing had happened the day before. She may have been feeling flustered. This might have affected her ability to quickly throw out a reason for why it can be dangerous to hide in the closet (I can think of a couple. What if he knocked something over while trying to get in/out/hide better, and hurt himself? What if he hurt someone coming out? What if...etc?).

So she threw out a reason that wasn't accurate. Doesn't matter. The big picture here is that she was right overall. She definitely wasn't trying to open a debate with your son.

So even if he was right about a little detail, it doesn't matter. Plus, he could be interpreted as meaning, "I can hear the alarm, so it's okay to hide in the closet," especially to a person who's already stressed out. She probably knows at this point that you can hear the fire alarm in there, but her main point wasn't "FIRE ALARM." It was "DANGEROUS." His correct response (IMO) would have been, "I can see how my actions could be dangerous; I could have opened the door into someone who didn't know I was there when I came out," or "I could have knocked something over and hurt myself."

I can see that in that situation, a person wouldn't be open to hearing an explanation, because it could come across as an excuse for behavior, even if it wasn't meant that way.

There's probably an important lesson here: when someone is justifiably angry at you, a good way to soothe the situation is to see the big picture, acknowledge that the other person is right, and not argue about minutiae.

Yes. And it's important to recognize that people who make social skills mistakes have to be able to apologize effectively, because they are called on to do it so much more often than other people. It is not a just world in that regard.

So yes, teach DS to recognize when someone is angry at him, and teach him "soothing skills" as well as the skills to recognize when arguing back is more like shooting himself in the foot than like genuine debate...

DeeDee

ETA: the bigger picture (advocate or apologize)-- I would say both. It is vitally important that school people who deal with DS all the time understand the mistakes that are likely to happen-- these blowups are happening again and again and take valuable staff time and aggravate your DS. Teach them again. However, I do apologize copiously for my DS's mistakes, and I require that he do so as well. It's all learning.

Why is the teacher so angry in the first place? Is a 7th-grader really such a threat to her? Does the district have an anger management course she can attend?

I mean, yeah, I get where you're coming from... we're all helpless to control the irrational behaviors of others, so the best we can do is adopt coping mechanisms for dealing with babies of all ages, and teach our children the same. But at the same time, this is sending a terrible message to the child, because other than exhibiting an age-appropriate misjudgement, by attempting an ill-advised prank, he has done nothing wrong here. Reinforcing the teacher's message, that it's his fault that she can't behave professionally, is not good for his psychological development.


IMO, it's not his job to explain all the possible negative outcomes. He's a child. That's the job of the responsible adult, and if she's offering reasons that are just plain wrong, she shouldn't be doubling down on them, she should be accepting his information and offering better reasons, like the ones you gave here.

Ummm... because a special needs student that she is responsible for is hiding in a potentially unsafe (and unknown) location-- where she doesn't have continuous means of supervising and monitoring him for his safety and that of his classmates?


Honestly, in a classroom setting, this is a pretty big deal. This is the kind of scenario where a teacher loses their job-- and their licensure-- when something goes horribly wrong in an instant. True explanation of her (understandable) annoyance... but probably not an appropriate explanation for a group of middle schoolers, either.

It's not really the teacher's "job" to explain it in the first place, either, other than to note that it isn't permitted to do this.

I do think that Val's points are good ones. In building empathy and social skills, it's good to practice the other person's point of view when possible.

It's not even about right/wrong (and I'd argue that in this instance, that's ambiguous at best, since this presumably took up class time and the teacher may well have been shutting it down so as not to rob the rest of the class of instructional time over it, yes?).

I also think that it is CRITICAL to have such a child understand that correcting an authority figure who is correcting YOU (or has stopped you and is exercising their authority) is seldom a good idea. It's not a good idea with a police officer, a teacher, a judge, a boss, etc. So that is, IMO, the bigger picture here.

Might even be worth addressing with the school-- that this is clearly something that your child does not yet understand is a social rule, and it's a work in progress.

There is actually a sign up in my kitchen that reminds of the "Steps for Taking Responsibility":

1. Have a pleasant voice
2. Look the person in the eye
3. Calmly admit what I did and apologize
4. Don't say anything else

Step 4 solves a lot for us...

DeeDee

DeeDee, I like your sign. That's a great idea.


This is a really good way to make the point I think that the OP was trying to make with the band teacher (?). It clearly says "Sorry," "You were right," "I'm working on this with my child," and "He's got a ways to go yet."

No wonder I'm struggling with this one ... there are valid thoughts on all sides, aren't there? Thanks for all the replies.

DeeDee - love the rules, and I think that might go a long way to helping. And it takes the whole nuance issue that is a bit beyond him at the moment.

Yes, he was horsing around and shouldn't have been. Yes, it was disruptive, and yes, the teacher had a right be annoyed about having to deal with it. But she did sign up to teach band to mid-schoolers, so I don't think she was expecting adult behavior. And when she reprimanded him, he was contrite and owned it.

For me, the real struggle is how much my kid has to change to fit into a mid-school teacher's expectations of normal and acceptable and how much I push back because I realize he will NEVER be their brand of normal and shouldn't have to feel bad about himself continually for not navigating every social rule, especially when they are confusing even to some adults.

Yup. I'm on the fence too.

Apologize: smooth the waters and help teach your son people skills to apply to the "real world"

Educate teacher: improve the education system one teacher at a time.

Tough call. Can you do both? Apologize, and during, explain the behaviour. Then explain to your son how is behaviour could have been seen as being rude (even though he was right).

It's tough when they're right in situations like this. You have to make the judgment call between idealistic and realistic.

Sorry, but I'm still seeing this as a failure of emotional maturity on the part of the teacher. If this was really about student safety, that problem was solved the moment he came out of the closet. The teacher demonstrated severe EQ failure at a number of junctures:

- Child acknowledged the issue and apologized. It should have ended there. Teacher continued anyway.
- Child corrected a bad argument. Teacher escalated, dressing the child down publicly.
- After time had passed, the teacher, still wrapped up in anger, contacted the parent.
- The teacher escalated her behavior yet again when the parent didn't immediately go into contrition mode.

As I said, I agree with teaching your child to keep silent when an immature adult is ranting, as a way to cope with difficult people. The problem I have is this idea that it's somehow the child's fault the adult can't manage their emotions. It's not. He's the victim here.

When called on the bad fire alarm argument, the response of a mature, secure adult who isn't wrapped up in anger mode, who doesn't see a child as a threat, would be, "Fair point, but what about..."

Dude, I actually agree with you for the same reasons. I sent an email at the beginning of the year describing his quirks (will talk to you like a peer rather than authority figure but will willingly comply with your directions if they are clear to him), they have his IEP, and it is almost December - not two weeks in.

I contacted the special Ed chair and politely requested that she supply the band teacher with resources to help her understand children on the autism spectrum and those with specific traits like Aspergers so that she would be better equipped and more comfortable dealing with my son the next time the need arose. We'll see...

My ds was required to write an apology essay for being disrespectful in correcting his teacher in a similar situation. One of the things he had to write about is how he would change himself so something like that wouldn't happen again. He wrote about how hard it is having ADHD. He said he wasn't sure he could change himself in time to make sure it wouldn't happen again since he's been working on it for so long. He talked about how hard he tries, how bad he feels when he fails, and how he doesn't always understand why people get upset with him. I've never seen him write something so heart-felt, and it almost made me cry. I'm hoping it helped the teacher see that he's not just some smart-alecky kid but one who really struggles (and also, maybe the apology letter punishment was a little extreme).

Hmm...maybe the teacher will read it an gain a better understanding of the challenges your son faces. The letter could end up improving things for everyone involved.

How NBC news this morning described why a judge will treat Lindsey Lohan worse because she hit somebody, even if that somebody was just looking for her 15 minutes of fame:
"You should know better because you should know that you're a target."

It's always been, "you should have known better because you're the one who's smarter so you're more at fault." Makes me mad. I hear that almost Every. Single. Problem. I've ever had with anybody ever. I was told that about a teacher too, around your son's age. And different people say it. It's a obvious thing to say, I guess. With problems that other people start I dig in and don't like to let go- duh, they won't quit causing problems.

Sorry, I can't help you with much advice since I'm a newbie parent I ask you for advice more. All I've got's opinions. My kid told me the other day he got moved to yellow. He said it was because he was talking to Christopher. I asked, "which class?" He told me, I smiled and said, Aww, you made a friend. Maybe next time y'all can play on the playground. I think the hubby would have lectured him about how you go to school to learn and don't misbehave. I think he was learning more outside of school (educational learning) and that he just goes to school to socialize and behave and practice following the rules.

I just don't have much of a budget for books, but I think about buying some of the books they're selling here: http://inpraiseofargument.squarespace.com/teach-a-kid-to-argue/

There's a difference between saying the right answer and saying the right thing. I'm still not sure which I want to do. I used to know.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/magazine/the-autism-advantage.html?smid=pl-share

This article was shared this morning in a tech group I'm a member of on LinkedIn. It is about a company in Denmark who hires only people on the Autism spectrum and then finds work for them - along with coaches and support team to help them and employers navigate the conflicts. My favorite quote was about this very issues, "I will not ask him to be more polite. He wouldn't understand the concept of social dishonesty, so his coworkers are just going to have to deal with it."

It is an excellent article.

La Texican - just read the link you provided. Looks like a good book - I'm off to see if my library offers the ebook version. Thanks!

One thing that I was going to note yesterday about Dude's posts in particular here is that:

a) none of us (including ABQmom) were present for this interaction. We don't know exactly what else was happening in that classroom at the time, we don't know the particulars of the other students in that classroom, etc. I can come up with a number of very reasonable explanations for the teacher's seemingly totalitarian response to this. Now, that's not to say that changes wouldn't improve things, which is where careful advocacy would come into things. I think that it's clear that ABQmom is also seeing that need and is taking steps on that front.

b) using inflammatory language in our own THINKING ("immature" "irrational" and most cringe-worthy, "victim" and "abuse of power") is seldom helpful regardless of truth. It is counterproductive to even be thinking those things, because our righteous indignation colors the things that we write, say, and hear. Particularly, as I noted above, since we have no way of knowing just how accurate our perceptions are when we haven't witnessed things firsthand to begin with. People who fail to understand my DD's disability may well endanger her life, but they are not "victimizing" her on any level, no matter how personal it seems to us at the time. (And trust me, it feels pretty darned personal when it's family or friends doing it.) It's thoughtless, but it isn't malicious. That is an important distinction.

I am coming at this from a compassionate... but ultimately pragmatic stance. I understand that this is the issue that ABQmom is struggling with, too-- there's what is obviously "best" for her child in the here and now, but there is also the "real world" argument. That's the fundamental nature of disability advocacy; do you use challenges as "suck it up" moments? Or do you attempt to smooth them out so that they aren't challenges anymore? Parents of younger kids tend toward the latter, but as they become adolescents, you begin to see the wisdom in the former since they'll have to live in the world the way it IS, not the way we wish we could make it.


My child is MY sole concern, but that isn't true for anyone but my spouse and I. Any teacher, coach, employer, family member or friend has other competing interests in mind. If I want to get results, I have to attempt to understand that perspective.

At the risk of sounding preachy, my daughter also has a hidden disability. She is also entitled to both privacy and accommodations, and doesn't always get either one. One of her Aspie friends outed her in very humiliating fashion in front of a large group of her peers; literally called the disability out loudly in what came across as a mocking fashion and involved the phrase "wouldn't want to be your cause of death or anything," while creating a situation that posed that exact risk to her. Basically this child was telling my daughter to LEAVE because she was planning to pose an imminent risk to her life. As a parent, you'd better believe that torqued me, because ultimately it poisoned the activity for good for my child, who was understandably mortified beyond words, and hurt at the callous exclusion. DD still wilts when she recalls that incident-- though she never "blamed" the other child, FWIW. Disability or not, that outburst damaged my child both socially and emotionally on the basis of HER disability. I had to let it go because it wasn't JUST about my child. I mention this because my mommabear impulse is alive and well, but I've learned the hard way that there are some no-win situations. All that pursuing that one would have done is leave the other mom incredibly pissed off at my temerity to think that her child's disability wasn't a good enough excuse for me, and made BOTH children a pain in the neck for the people running the activity. If it hadn't involved a child with a disability... it would have been addressed quite differently. Probably. I mention this to note that teachers (and others) frequently have to deal with such 'competing needs' scenarios-- as parents mostly do not.

I'd find out a lot more information with an open mind before assuming that this was about THIS child in particular, and not the class as a whole. The class probably includes other children with disabilities (which the teacher must not discuss with another parent) and serious behavioral challenges (which would lend themselves to maintaining a lot more rigid kind of classroom control lest things slip irrevocably into open chaos).



What are the teacher's goals here? I seriously doubt that she went into teaching to get a power trip from "dominating" students and "intimidating" them into "submission." KWIM? I've seen a few of those, and I'm well aware that they exist, but they are really pretty rare. Realistically, most behavior like this is motivated by a desire to maintain order FOR the students, not "of" them. Gender can also play a role in how tight classroom control has to be with a particular mix of kids. I know. I was once a 27yo physical science professor who was routinely called "Mrs. Howler" by male students who viewed my every statement as a suggestion open for debate rather than a direction or mandate. In some classes, it was fine... and in others, there was a large enough nucleus of those kids that I couldn't tolerate a lot of that during class time because of what it did to undermine my authority and reduce instructional time for everyone else. I directed such students to see me in my office rather than bringing up individual beefs/quirks/complaints in a class with 100+ classmates, and I was often quite firm about it with repeat offenders. I'm sure that a few of them would have characterized my statements to them as a public "dressing down" as well.

I realize that this is a hard thing for most people to understand without having been in one of these positions-- your authority is largely a function of the students' willingness to give it to you. Not all of them will, no matter how "worthy" you are of that respect; it's not about you as a teacher for some students, but about what you represent, which you don't control. You can tolerate maybe 5-8% who won't respect your authority (maybe), but if that climbs to 10-15%, you can be in real trouble with an entire class because it turns into a feeding frenzy or lynch mob. If that happens, learning is pretty much off the table entirely for everyone. This can even present actual danger for students and teacher, depending on the group of students and the course involved. I have a friend who was assaulted by a seventh grader in her class who was unhappy with his grade. This class (because she was new) had ALL of the known 'problem' kids in it that nobody else wanted. That incident involved unions, lawyers, and administrative leave for the teacher (which deeply saddened her for the loss of learning that it represented for the class as a whole). Again-- anecdote, but since Dude wanted to know what kind of risk a 7th grader could possibly pose.

Is this making sense? The teacher's perspective here is FAR more complicated than interactions with any single student. Her shortness with ABQmom may have been frustration that this is (yet another?) parent who is unable/unwilling to see that larger picture.

Honestly, the idea that a teacher could calmly, gently, and privately have a ten to fifteen minute back-and-forth conversation with a single student about inappropriate behavior or tangential explanations of non-curricular issues... DURING CLASS... is absurd. How many other children would be left at loose ends and not learning while this took place? What would that do to the teacher's authority and ability to maintain classroom control?

It will be interesting to see how the teacher responds to ABQmom's response. I am hopeful that her measured and calm advocacy will yield good results.

I'm sure that my post comes across as argumentative or something-- but that is truly not how it is intended.

It's just a different perspective to consider.

Howler: I respect your point that we do not have all of the information, and all of the information is second-hand at best. This is why I began my first response to this thread with two disclaimers: "My interpretation of the story as told is the teacher owes your son an apology." That phrase contains a tacit admission that the information is passing through two filters that can change the result... how the information is being presented to me, and how I am interpreting it myself.

I also understand that teachers are under a lot of stress, and I understand that there may be a history between this student and teacher that affected her emotions in this situation.

However, the key counter-argument to everything you've said is this: the child immediately acknowledged his error, and apologized. That is the exact opposite of disrespecting a teacher. The notion that he might be threatening to harm her or usurp her classroom authority at that stage is inconsistent with this detail of the story.

As for your comment that it would be absurd (note you're using the same kind of loaded language you accuse me of here) to have a calm one-to-one conversation during class, the teacher is equipped with a simple remedy for this: "See me after class." But it seems that she did just the opposite, because as we're told, she continued the confrontation longer than was necessary... because again, the child has already accepted responsibility and apologized. She made the decision to continue after that. She made the poorly-conceived argument to drive home her point. And then she decided to interpret his correction as a challenge to her authority, so that's all on her.

The "competing needs" argument goes right out the window at this point, because the teacher gives in to her need to express her anger, at the expense of every student in the room. While she is continuing the confrontation, nobody is learning. Again, the simple way to meet all the competing needs would have been, "See me after class." If he decides he wants to continue the argument at that point... office referral.

Ultimately, I'm coming from a position that adults are expected to maintain a higher standard of behavior than we expect from our children. In this story, as it has been related to us, the child behaved better than the teacher did, and that's a shame on her. If you do not share this expectation, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

So yes, when I see an adult's emotions overcoming their reason, I will label that "irrational." When I see a child exhibiting better social grace than the adult (especially when the child has a medical diagnosis related to social difficulties), I observe that the adult's behavior is "immature." When said adult is doing so from a position of authority, I recognize that as "abuse of power." And since the result is an unnecessary verbal assault in front of his peers, I would describe him as a "victim."

As far as a teacher only having as much authority as the students are willing to convey... I'd say this display is unlikely to help in that regard, and is quite likely to hurt.

All of this is, as I said, my opinion, based on the little information presented. Feel free to disagree.

This is a great idea. I made a list for my fridge.