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Hi Waits,
I think you are in the right place to start. Let's see: Is she in kindergarten? Are they learning the alphabet and three-letter rhyming words? At home is she reading The Magic Treehouse? Are her friends outside of school mostly a bit older or have close interests in common? Does she play with math at home, and they are learning to count at school?

If so, sounds like a sensitive, self-aware, highly gifted kid dropped into an environment completely out-of-synch with her needs. There are a ton of articles around and threads here. Some sympathy for the teachers involved... at a 150 IQ, that is less than 1 in 1000 kids: so a teacher teaching 25 kids a year for 40 years on average will have one student in your daughter's range in their whole career.

My only recommendation - do NOT use the school psychologist for eval or diagnostic purposes. Go get your own eval done through a developmental pediatrician or neuropsychologist of your choice.

My son did not play with his classmates at that age either as they shared zero interests. He did have friends that I found for him outside of school who shared his interests. He is now 2 years grade skipped (age 10 in 7th) and fine socially -- the kind of kid who has a couple of good friends, but no interest in the big social groups. Kids with high IQs can be misunderstood in so many ways.... I second the idea that whatever you do, don't use your school psych to investigate this issue.

Oh yeah, as a new user, it can take a day or so for your response to appear in thread. Wanted to add, this is one of my favorite intro articles (Small Poppies):
http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10124.aspx

I agree with epoh about using a private neuropsych rather than the school psychologist.

From what you describe, I think you are right to look for answers other than Asperger's.

Sounds to me like you have a "way out there" gifted child, dropped into a situation where she feels absolutely NO connection to her so-called "peers". Really, kids with such high IQ's sometimes don't feel like they fit in and therefore, isolate themselves.

Who knows, could be Asbergers. But I am suspecting it all being related to her very high intelligence and she is being completely misunderstood.

Still, can't hurt to get an evaluation from a PRIVATE psychologist.

When my son was five and in kindergarten he too was very articulate, was interested in a lot of different things and loved to talk about his interests to older friends and adults because kids his age did not understand what he was talking about and did not get the jokes that he made or understand the high level words that he used in his speech. When he was about nine I remember hearing a girl his age in musical theater class telling her friend that he was speaking in some geeky language that only geeks understand. Only his older friends (three and four years older) really seemed to enjoy talking to him. They had no trouble understanding him. They loved his sense of humor, his knowledge of technology and his knowledge of video games. They were the ones that invited him to birthday parties and to spend the night at their houses, not the kids his age.

Some teachers in our small town public school thought he must have asperger's because he read at a 5th grade level or maybe even higher before he started kindergarten and he could do mental math including some multiplication. What he couldn't well was physical things like coloring in the lines. We told the kindergarten teacher he had hypotonia and some sensory issues but I think she thought it was more evidence of asperger's. He did not really have behavior issues except when he was told to do a lot of coloring in the lines. He was supposed to color "letter people" and he got so sick of coloring that he would scribble. Scribbling instead of coloring in the lines was his only act of defiance. I think there might have been more acts of defiance if he had been in school all day instead of a half day and not allowed to learn at his level. He would come home after he got out of school and learn new things online.

Not one doctor has ever suggested that he had asperger's and he has been to a lot of them because of physical issues.

I'd see a private psychologist to sort this out, preferably one who has experience with gifted girls and autism spectrum disorders, so you can get a definitive answer.

At the very least, you want to solve the problem with not following directions and the feeling overwhelmed. That in itself would be worth seeing someone about, IMO; it's not typical behavior.

Being upset that others have friends and not following instructions can be related to Asperger's but can also be attributable to other things.

DeeDee

Your description of your daughter sounds like my DD, as well as like me (even down to the IQ, lol), and neither of us have Asperger's.

If the school thinks they see something there's no harm in seeking professional advice (I agree with the others - do it privately, NOT through the school). From your description though she sounds like she just can't connect with that particular peer group, and also may be an introvert which is why she finds the environment overwhelming. Introvert does not automatically equal spectrum. I'm the same way... I hate large groups. I much prefer one on one.

Anyway, I wouldn't panic, but you could see your doctor anyway... at the very least this will make the school happy, and they'll see you as a team player (even though they're likely wrong about the Aspergers).

Just wanted to (fourth?--and fifth, based on my sister's experience with her DS7) previous comments about getting an independent eval. I know we tried to be seen as 'team players' by using the school-recommended psych last year, but the eval totally bit, being based as it was on questionnaires from the teachers who pretty much couldn't stand DD (in contrast to the previous two teachers who were wonderful with her while being completely honest with us about her various issues, Bless them). And we're still trying to get a 'fair' evaluation, and I'm still trying to not bug people on this forum by posting about this issue over and over again
So best of luck to you.
BTW, one view of Asperger's apparently is that it can manifest as impulsivity b/c one is not so concerned with what others think.

That is certainly an element of my DS10's makeup (he has Asperger's). You can think of it as extreme inner-directedness, which also translated when he was smaller to "not giving a darn or even noticing what the teacher wants."

DeeDee

My D (now 17) had a very similar profile of test scores and behavior at that age. After quite a bit of "mucking around" with testing, she eventually ended up with a diagnosis of a non-verbal learning disorder. But we have gotten the comment (even from a psychologist) that they thought she is Aspie... but other mental health professionals have assured us that she is not. On the borderline, I guess. She would definitely say about herself that she is "on the spectrum". Agree with those who say to get the testing done by someone outside the school.

Hi Waits -- welcome to the board. Your situation sounds similar to mine. My daughter was in K last year, and it was really rough for us. They ended up moving her to a combined first-third grade class in February, where she did much better and was much happier, but she still finds the classroom/school environment difficult.

DeeDee wrote, "I'd see a private psychologist to sort this out, preferably one who has experience with gifted girls and autism spectrum disorders, so you can get a definitive answer."

Unfortunately, it hasn't been so straight forward in my case. My DD6 was evaluated by a well-regarded developmental pediatrician with over 25 years of experience with autism/aspergers including gifted. She saw my daughter at age 4.5 and again at age 5.5, and both times said DEFINITELY 100% certain not on the spectrum. During the second visit, she attributed DD's behavior to ADHD. In the middle of those two visits I saw a private psychologist who also said definitely not Asperger's.

Despite these pretty "definitive answers", teachers and parents of kids on the spectrum keep telling me that they think my daughter has Asperger's, that it can be hard to get the correct diagnosis, that it took them years to get the right diagnosis for their kid, etc. In fact this year there is a new special ed teacher at the school, whose grown son has Asperger's. She has spent a lot of time supporting my daughter and getting to know her. She says that my daughter is so much like son that it's like "going in a time machine." Now the school will be doing a lot of assessments - IQ, achievement, speech, behavioral, including assessment by the school psychologist.

I'm curious about why some of the previous posters are wary of school psychologists. Why should I trust their diagnosis less than I should trust those of private professionals? I just want the school to be able to accommodate her needs and help her with her challenges.

One - the school psychologist works for the SCHOOL. Not for you or your child. While they likely have good intentions, they are ultimately working for their employer.

Two - Experience. You can read countless stories on this board, but the long story short is that the vast majority of the time school psychologists are dealing with kids from bad home with behavior problems, not highly gifted children with possible learning disorders. Many of the kids on this board have IQ ranges that make them, statistically speaking, one in a thousand, one in 5,000. It's highly unlikely there's a single other child in their school like them. How likely is it a school psychologist has seen enough kids like these to understand them?

Three - In my experience, they are overworked and underpaid. They don't have the time or resources to do the sort of testing that really should be used (in our case they used the K-TEA and K-ABC as opposed to the private neuropsych who was able to use the WISC and WIAT among other surveys/observations.) The private doctors will typically work with/observe your child for 3-4hours or longer. The school psych will probably get an hour, tops, and often that's in a random school room with kids passing in the hallways, bells ringing and countless other distractions.

In addition, many school psychologists are simply not capable of doing the diagnostic work necessary to actually diagnose 2e children. They have a limited number of 'bubbles' they can fill in, and that's it. My DS's last school psychologist wanted to label him 'emotionally disturbed' which would have likely landed him in a special isolated classroom full of other 'emotionally disturbed' children - a fine place for a highly gifted kid on the autism spectrum!

This is not to say all school psychologists are terrible. I'm sure there are some amazing ones out there! But likely won't have any idea what your school psychologist is like until way too late to do anything about it. You can't read up online about them or find patient reviews. You can't sit down and interview them prior to them testing your child. You don't get a personal follow-up with recommendations next steps. You get a short ARD meeting with a couple page report with a label or not.

Exactly what EPOH said - especially the first. Their agenda and mandates are driven by their employer, not you or your child. Thus, they can never be an impartial advocate on your child's behalf.

Our psychiatrist is currently working with us to provide documentation regarding clinical reasons for depressed scores on standardized tests - something he suggested as a means to get my son his differentiated work for his Giftedness and not just his disabilities. I promise you, in all the years I've worked with school staff, none of them would go out on a limb to fight the status quo to get the appropriate accommodations because of the reprimands and consequences they feared from their employers,

Having someone outside the system who isn't motivated to put your child in a definable box that works in their system is to your benefit.

Yes x 1,000. ASD gets funding in our system (BC Canada) whereas so many other cognitive profiles (ADHD, for example) do not. While funding helps kids, I'm wary of having a school psychologist mislabel a child just to get $$$. A private psychologist won't have this kind of bias.

Sounds like what we've been through with DS. The more people I talk to, & the more forum posts I read, the more I see a pattern of school systems erring on the side of ASD.

In our case, it was a private school with an affiliated psychologist, and we ended up with a horrible evaluation suggesting ADHD, ODD, and Asperger's based mainly on evaluations from teachers who couldn't stand DD. I think the idea was to make DD look as bad as possible on paper to justify kicking her out--which was totally unnecessary, b/c all they had to do was say, look, this isn't working. Maybe they were afraid we would try to sue or something, which is ridiculous b/c it would not even work and we would not do that. But anyway now we have this awful eval that if you read it and don't know DD it sounds like she should be locked in a padded room. We've been trying to get a diagnosis we can believe in from an independent specialist, and I think we're going to end up with Asperger's (maybe Asperger's-ish, since DD doesn't have all the traits), which I can believe based on everything I've read and plus it's a diagnosis that isn't going to scare school admissions people out of their wits. I'm still so grateful that we were able to get DD into another school this year even though they did see that evaluation--but five other schools didn't after seeing it. It's just very disappointing that the whole thing happened that way, and I would never let it happen again.

Yes. It took us years to get the correct diagnosis (DS was 5.) Some kids (especially girls) figure out some coping strategies to mask how socially confused they are. Some practitioners write off obvious issues as "due to giftedness" when there is an underlying disability causing them. Our DS fell into the latter case.


A school psychologist will probably not have all the tools and knowledge a private practitioner will have. (Our school psych had never heard of the ADOS, which is the best test for distinguishing autism spectrum disorders from other things. She was also highly motivated NOT to identify DS.) In many parts of the country a school psych has only a Master's degree, and they are qualified to make educational assessments but not to diagnose or treat a disability.

The educational assessment is very important, because it gives access to services and supports; but if you really want to know the full picture, it's worth seeing a private practitioner in parallel. The two processes are not equivalent.

DeeDee

jeimey, we are not dealing with ASD, but I want to second what DeeDee said - for any child struggling with a disability. I think that sometimes as parents it's very easy for us to get so caught up in the world of school - how to help at school, how to get around impacts at school, how to get services at school, how to make sure our very bright kids are successful at school - that we forget that although school is a large part of our children's lives, it's still only one piece. As parents we need to prepare our kids for *life*, and school is a subset of that - if we focus on the big picture, school falls into place (not without a lot of advocating - but the key is understanding that the disability impacts our kids across their life, not just at school. Having the correct diagnosis is really helpful - and sometimes very difficult to get to. Having the advice of private practitioners can also help with much more than just the diagnosis - they will be available for you (usually) for more than the eval - if a bump in the road crops up one or two or seven years down the road, you can re-consult with the same person who initially evaluated your child. As part of the initial evaluation, you will typically get their references and opinions on where to seek additional therapies or consultations that your child might need - you won't get either of these types of advice through school.

Best wishes,

polarbear

I would go to the autism expert. Reasoning: the gifted expert doesn't necessarily have the training to catch the fine points of autism. The autism people will be equipped to recognize the high IQ and academic achievement-- they may underplay these, but they won't omit to notice them altogether. The autism expert is more likely to use the full range of instruments for assessing social and language skills. Make sure they give the ADOS, which is a standardized test.

DeeDee

Here are my thoughts:

Whether or not your daughter has an ASD, it sounds like she's not happily adjusted to her situation. What needs to be done to fix things? IOW, are the fixes things which require a diagnosis? Or are they things which will respond to more informal interventions (joining a Brownie troop to make friends, behavioral interventions on either your part or the teacher's vis-a-vis completing tasks, interventions with the other kids concerning social exclusion of peers, etc). What would a diagnosis gain your daughter other than Capital-Letter Interventions like speech, OT and PT?

If there's something to be gained-- and you're the best judge of that, you and your daughter-- then I'd second DeeDee's recommendation (with the addition that I would explain to the autism specialist that the school is trying to push that specific diagnosis and you're not completely on board). If there's not...I'd be telling the school to come up with another plan. Not every difficult social situation is diagnosis-worthy, and in the long run, you know your child far better than they do.