I know--I've thrown around every diagnosis in the book for DD. Humor me.

I do have a call in to the local university for a full psych work-up. It's going to be a while before she's seen, though.

We have seen a major increase in "symptoms" over about the last 5 months. I would almost say there is a slight possibility that something biological or hormonal may be going on, although what we are seeing is still "her," but ramped up, and the incidents are much more frequent, like almost daily. After some very bad days where I went to bed feeling really terrible about myself, DH and I have taken a good hard look at ourselves to see how we may be contributing. We have given up yelling almost entirely (I would say entirely, during episodes--an occasional "Hey, don't throw food at the ceiling!" still happens). We have stopped sending her to her room and giving consequences during episodes. We have stopped lecturing during episodes. We reflect back her feelings, offer love and physical affection, and just sit with her during them, basically. It feels like the right thing to do, although the behavior continues. Later, after she is calm, we discuss the behavior a bit. She is almost always very contrite and cries and apologizes sincerely once she's calm.

By episode, I mean something like this...basically, she gets frustrated or angry about something, becomes cognitively "stuck," either starts crying (this has become more rare) or becomes screamingly angry or freezingly cold and remote (this is new). She says things like: I never want to see you again, I don't want to live in this family, I wish you would all go away, I don't care about any of you, I never want to talk to any of you ever again, you're all against me, no one is on my side, no one believes anything I say. She thinks we always believe her brother and that we think he is perfect (he does tend to be much milder and more even-tempered than she, but he has his moments, like all kids; no kids is ever described as perfect in our house). She will try to get up in your face and scream as loud as she can. This can be over something like "Please help your brother clean up the living room now."

She has threatened self-harm a couple of times when very upset. When she is calm, she says that she does not mean it and says it to get a reaction. Obviously, this is very upsetting to us. Also, in recent weeks there have been threatening movements towards me and DH, though she has not hit us yet. This is also new; she has not hit us or anyone since she was three year old (she does not hit her brother and he does not hit her). She has started throwing things.

In calmer moments, we have talked to her and asked her if something is bothering her. She talks about her brother a lot--says he says mean things to her. He is 4, and not much on saying mean things, outside of very typical kid stuff, but we've spoken to him about it, in her hearing. I suspect she feels some jealousy towards him because people do tend to dote on him (not us--we're pretty careful--but other people, esp. family). He's also really blossoming intellectually, and may be sort of unintentionally challenging her role as "the smart one." I don't see any behavior from him that is out of the ordinary for a kid brother--really, he worships her most of the time--but it's possible that I miss stuff, I guess?

There are also a couple of kids at school she has some trouble with. It doesn't seem to be huge. I have asked her if she wants me to talk to the teacher about it, and she doesn't. She has a posse of girlfriends at school, and a best friend, and seems to be pretty popular--lots of bday party invites. Her behavior at school is absolutely fine--like, beyond fine. Great. All As, student of the week all the time, etc. School (she is at a gifted magnet) is too easy, and she is aware of that and somewhat bothered by it, but there isn't much I can do at this point in the year. She tested as MG/HG, by the way, but I think she is HG/EG. I don't think we have ever seen her perform at her true potential, but I don't know how much of this is a school thing.

Anyway. Does childhood depression manifest as anger like this? Sound familiar to anyone? I feel pretty despairing about her.

Family history of depression, anxiety, Asperger's, and giftedness on both sides. I'm not sure we should have bred sometimes.

I know I have posted about here here like three other times and I feel a bit silly. I don't talk about her much elsewhere (I do have an in-person friend who "gets" DD) so this is my outlet.

I'm no help on the specifics of depression, but it would seem that if she's threatening self harm, even just in the heat of the moment, you should into see someone for a workup much more quickly than a few months. No matter what, you need an accurate picture of what she's dealing with so that you can respond appropriately and be armed with knowing what to look for if things continue to spiral out of control.

While you're squaring that away, DD's neuropsych has me track DD's moods on moodtracker.com. I don't like storing that kind of info online, so I signed up, saw what it had you track, and I just started my own notepad.

Growing up is such hard work.

We saw a lot of what you describe with your dd in our oldest (now 21). She was a fussy baby who grew into a precocious, delightful child at an early age but grew more and more intense as she got older. I don't remember the exact sequence of things, but I do remember how hard she took news that we were moving when she was 8 years old/4th grade. The following New Years Eve, at 9 years old, when she missed the "ball dropping" due to a misunderstanding (long story, we were watching a movie, had asked the kids whether they wanted to switch back) she had a two-hour meltdown (yes, til 2am) and I can remember thinking, "this isn't just normal kid stuff." We had definitely encountered things before, but I remember that being the straw that sent us over the edge and into counseling. We have had a few diagnoses over the ensuing years: depression, anxiety (GAD), SAD, and even bipolar II. At one point, when she did full emotional/educational testing, we found out she was PG (not a complete surprise, given that she had already been grade skipped after being the youngest in her class to start).
She is now 21, on no meds, set to graduate from college, and doing quite well. I don't really know if any of those diagnoses are correct. I've kind of given up on figuring that part out. She is still intense, still emotional, and occasionally struggles (she took five years for college in part due to emotional stuff, not because of coursework).
I saw a lot of what you are describing - the intense, overwhelming meltdowns, followed by remorse (luckily for us, she was always extremely polite to strangers/school staff; she has a bit of fear regarding authority figures). OTOH, she used to have moments of incredible anger/rudeness/hostility towards us (it didn't help that she went through some really tough emotional stuff - my life-threatening illness, a half-brother passing away, and the death of her dad-although luckily I was remarried before ex's death to a very supportive and loving guy who has been great for her). She is very sensitive still, although now it happens much less frequently. However, right now work and school are both busy and she was unusually frustrated this week and threw up her hands and said she couldn't deal with how "crazy" and "loud" her brothers were being (they're actually pretty quiet and well-behaved). It just seems that her sensitivities are so much greater than most people. Things do NOT roll off her!At least as she's gotten older she can regulate it so much better. Honestly, she also feels sad now for some missed opportunities, mainly to do with college. Although she lived on campus for the first four years, we kept her close at a nearby university due to her age (16)and emotional issues. I think it's hard when you have the potential to be curing cancer (or whatever) and you're just being an "average" (very good) college student, if that makes sense!
I think that you are handling things well - we also learned that threatening/giving consequences/shouting in the middle of any of the meltdowns was hopeless. The most we would do is say "we can't talk to you while you're so upset" - the weird thing is (well maybe not so weird) that she wanted company in a way - hard to describe, but I think it scared her to feel out of control.
We have had a little of the "you like them better than me" (her sister, who is incredibly easy and trouble free) and her brothers (who were younger and she felt "cuter") but I think that came of her own guilt and fears over her behaviors. It wasn't until she was older and more emotionally mature that we really understood her guilt over her actions and how deeply it affected her.
I feel like I'm talking in circles, but I just want to say that I do understand a lot of where you're coming from. The doctor who did the IQ testing basically said that there was nothing wrong with her except her exceptional giftedness. I don't actually believe that, but I do think that it wasn't really about any one diagnosis, but just about trying to help her understand and manage her intensity and how deeply she felt everything.
Okay, still rambling... you may certainly PM me if you want to talk. Hang in there.

Forgot to add (because my post wasn't long enough) - we defintiely experienced the throwing, as well as slamming doors (her bedroom door doesn't close properly even now because it's been slammed so hard so many times). She also threatened self harm on occasion. We did take it seriously - at one point, when she was a teen, we had suicide hotline numbers prominently available in her room. However, I honestly don't think she was suicidal though, as much as overwhelmed and just not knowing how to deal with it. We went through four or five therapists before finding one we had for five solid years (not always weekly, but always at least every month or two) who provided a great outlet for her and often for us as well in family sessions.
She hasn't seen one for a while, but is looking for one now as she deals with her next big life transitions. I'm not trying to overshare or make this about my own experiences, but I just wanted to let you know that you're not alone. It's hard to describe but although I think you obviously should never ignore threats or violence, I also think you have to take into account the source and when such threats are uttered. If my dd19 ever said she felt depressed, let alone suicidal, I'd take immediate action. However, with my oldest, I think at times her saying "out there" statements ("I hate you!" "I can't take it any more") was a way of getting out her feelings. I hope this isn't misinterpreted; we did take her seriously and did not ignore her, ever, but at the same time, we knew sometimes things came out more as a reflection of emotions than any actual real intent or feeling (if that makes sense).

Thanks so much for the posts so far. The threat of self-harm do not read as serious to me at this point. I think they are another way of her trying to communicate that she is really upset. She doesn't say "I want to die" or "I want to kill myself"--she says things like "I don't care if I get hurt" or "Maybe I should just die!" which does seem a bit different. At one point she did say something a little closer to something suicidal, and I did react by bursting into tears. Unfortunately, I have lost a number of friends to suicide, one recently, and the subject is very hard for me. I don't know if my reaction was the right one, but it was certainly honest, and I think she was taken aback. I explained a little but without getting too far into it. She didn't seem to even really know exactly what suicide was and that people really did it, which solidified my sense that this was something she said without much thought behind it. BTW, she is 8.


Yes, I think she is scared by her own behavior and she obviously experiences guilt and shame afterwards.

It is sort of....too bad, in a way, that her brother happens to be an easygoing kid. The contrast is pretty glaring. We never, ever compare them or call attention to it, but there's no way not to notice it. On an average day, she is far more likely to cry or "lose it" than he is. It is hard on him, too. He sometimes gets really upset by the stuff she says. I am the younger sister of an older sib with some mental health issues (undiagnosed, but probably it's a case of depression and anxiety there, too) and I identify with his feelings in this situation.


This may be true for DD as well.

It sounds depression-ish. Anger/homicidal ideation is certainly a symptom of depression. Bipolar II is the overdiagnosed fake bipolar in my BIL's psych opinion, but that's generally tied into limited education more than anything else.

Diagnoses aren't that useful, because the DSM changes all the time for random reasons. I haven't checked out the DSM-V yet.

Isn't depression supposed to occur in all domains, home, school, social, etc., rather than just one?

The threatening self-harm is pretty much unacceptable behavior, but my clients do it all the time.

An nice explanation to them that if they are actually threatening to harm themselves, I have no qualms about getting them committed to a nice psych vacation usually works to make them admit that they aren't serious. If they're cutting or branding themselves with a hot iron, I generally don't care (cutters are just annoying), but if they are actually expressing an interest in killing themselves (or others), that's different.

It sounds like she needs some life coping skills.

As one of our local neuropsychs says, depression *is* biological, but unlike traumatic brain injury, you can recover from it with treatment. He apparently thinks of it as temporary TBI.

A Neuropsych eval might be helpful, too.

Bipolar is supposed to involve highs and lows, right? She doesn't really have highs or any manic episodes or anything. She's not always unhappy but she generally has a short fuse. Again, this has gotten worse lately (everything has). I do wonder about some kind of biological or hormonal change.

She doesn't threaten anyone with harm. I don't think she would hurt anyone in any serious way, ever. I could picture her flailing around and whacking vaguely at us, though. She slams her door, for sure. When she throws stuff, it's soft stuff. She doesn't break anything.

I didn't mention this earlier, but she definitely has low self-esteem--says she's bad at everything, etc, despite ample evidence to the contrary (eg, not getting anything wrong all year, except when she accidentally skips a problem or an occasional careless addition or subtraction error). It's not completely clear to me whether she really believes this or is "fishing." The one area where she still seems to retain some self-confidence is art.

Frankly, I do find it odd (though it's a good thing for us all) that she is so well-behaved at school. I mean, I think she has occasional moments--she is the kind of kid who corrects the teacher--but she definitely does not throw fits and she follows directions to a T. I don't know what it's all about. I have long wondered if this might be an indictment of our parenting in some way. I know, I know, she feels safer at home, etc.

What I'm getting from your various posts - sorry if I've said so before, but there doesn't seem to be an easy way to check - is flashbacks to my own childhood at the same kind of age. For example, I'm sure all but 2-4 of your points here would have applied to me. Also the being a different child at school, and the self-harm stuff.

Good news: I'm here and happy. Bad news: I nearly wasn't. It got a lot worse before it got better.

It's actually hard to say much more without giving out more personal information than I'm happy about on a public forum. If you'd like more detail (which of course might be quite irrelevant to your situation, or might perhaps be useful) and I haven't said it all before, let me know and I'll PM you.


Here I will confidently say "both"! This is an example of doublethink, I'm sure. She is verbalising the contradiction that she feels as though she's useless at everything, but simultaneously knows perfectly well that that's rubbish. She needs you to weigh in on the "that's rubbish" side, but if you can do so somewhere between as though she had made a joke and as though you know just how she feels, rather than as though she had made a misjudgement (which becomes another thing she's useless at!) so much the better.

Bipolar II is hypomania, not mania. So, if you are irritable, whammo, you have Bipolar II!

The DSM-V is coming in May 2013, which will change stuff.

From Wikipedia:

Hypomania (literally, "below mania") is a mood state characterized by persistent and pervasive elevated (euphoric) or irritable mood, as well as thoughts and behaviors that are consistent with such a mood state.

Manic phase can sometime express as extreme irritability, so isn't always obvious as mania.

My DD8 has had the occasional episode of "maybe I should just die," and "I'm bad at everything," which she self-identifies as low self esteem. Any yeah, it's not clear to me whether it's attention-seeking or if she really believes it. We've been fortunate that the episodes rarely last more than a week or two, and then we get a long break. She's over-the-top remorseful and guilty over any misdeeds even then, though, which I see as related. I don't know if it's that she's holding things together but can't do it all the time, or what.

This is a hard age. I'd hoped I'd have a few more years before we got here.


Having had mental health issues as a teen, I don't find it odd at all. I was actively attempting self-harm before I had the slightest bit of bad behavior at school, and that was years after I started acting out at home. Not that your DD is headed down that path, but "fine at school" is not an indication that nothing's wrong. School, even boring too-easy school where you have no friends, has a lot of elements that help you keep it together. Structure, peer pressure, distractions you can lose yourself in.

Colinsmum, yes, please do PM me. I might add here that I do not have a depression history myself (with the exception of mild PPD after DD's birth, which was more anxiety/intrusive thoughts than depression), so I find a lot of this pretty foreign and confusing. I definitely did not have feelings like this as a child at all, despite having a pretty awful childhood, so a part of me is like "What? I don't get it! Your life is so good!" which I realize is an unproductive response.

Anyway, it actually is quite helpful to me to talk to people who might have more of a sense of what DD is going through. I get anxious (I AM anxious!--just not depressed) that she is going to depressed for life, never be happy, that this is going to trip her up in so many ways, etc. She has SO MUCH potential. She has this gorgeously creative mind, she learns effortlessly, and when she sets her mind to something...look out. She is actually a fabulous friend, and that reassures me. But inside the family....man.

Oh Ultramarina - I hated those days when I'd go to bed feeling like a bad mom with an out of control kid. ((hugs))
It sounds to me like she is working hard to keep it together during the school day. I get that there isn't much to do about it at this late date, but what is in the works to change things for next year. No matter what the diagnosis, a gifted kid with a short fuse NEEDS stimulating setting to handle school.

I'm glad you backed off the yelling and lecturing during the storms. It may or may not be helping her (and I bet it is) but it's certianly having integrity for you, and you may as well. Now I'm going to 'challenge' you to take that approach one step further (a la 'Transforming the Difficult Child Workbook' by Lisa Bravo) while you have a few months before the appointment.

1) Talk to the school and let them know what you are seeing at home and see if there is ANYTHING that they can do a) for next year, and b)to wiggle things for the rest of this year. At the very least, get the teacher's agreement for a daily email each day for the next 2 weeks telling something praiseworthy that happened in school so that you and DH can start rebuilding her self image of herself as someone worth of appreciation instead of as a big giant mess. You'll feel better too.

2) Consider a once a week 'homeschool day' just you and her traveling to a museam and send younger brother to the babysitters for the day. Expensive, but cheaper than many many other things. Put your resource where your mouth is will be much more effective to convince her that she still has a special relationship with you than all the verbal reasurrance in the world.

3) Set the timer while she is in the house for 10 minutes. Walk over to where she is when it goes off, and notice what she is doing. Find ways that she is putting your family values into action and say those aloud with sincerity. Keep it verifiable. Small is fine. Then do the same for your DS, and DH if he is home. Then head back to whatever you were doing, reset the timer and keep repeating until bedtime. Expect blowback, and up the ante with 'Thanks for saying in words that you hate what I'm doing, that's a respectful way to get your point across.' Suspend this during emotional storms.

There is more to it, but these are the first steps to get in place before the rest can be started.

DS15 was going through 'mental puberty' around age 9. It was a mental awakening to that developmental need to establish independence and grow out of a childlike dependence that hits our kids much too early. So my guess is that she is rebelling against the pressures of 'needing to grow up' and acting more immature. It may also have some physical puberty underpinnings. Depression does show up as anger - I've been watching http://bigthink.com/ideas/16713
Dr. Kay Redfield Jamison talking about the difference between grief and depression. I do think that there will be some level of grief, for us and for our kids, as we transition from one chapter of life from the next. So yup, get a professional involved to have an outside opinion, as well, but do what you can at home. Excersize, Sleep, reasonable nutrition, reasonable limits on screen time, reasonable amounts of outdoor time, no 'attention-binges' in response to negative behavior - as parents we are in charge of some of the basics, and a small change can make a big difference.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Here is the "good" news: I actually called the psych office again and mentioned self-harm threats. Our appointment is next week.

We are really careful about nutrition, sleep, exercise, and outdoor time...one wonders what she'd be like if we weren't. She is almost always happy when outside (although her current hobby--fishing--can be hard on a kid...sometimes you don't catch a darn thing...)

*I* feel better about myself since changing our approach--a lot better. So that's actually worth a lot. I wish I'd seen a change in HER, though. Maybe in time? It's a little scary to feel like I just sit there and "let her" act like that, I admit. I do need to positively recognize her more. I try.

School is over in three weeks, so it's just done for now. I think next year may be better. This year was almost like K in a way, since it was the first year at the magnet for all and they were all coming from different schools with different levels of exposure to material. I admit that I have learned helplessness about all this. At her previous school, all my efforts to get harder material were stonewalled. I just gave up after a while. I figured if they wouldn't differentiate for a kid as noisy and obvious as DD, they just wouldn't, period.

Ultramarina,

Forgive me if you've already had this recommendation, but the book "The Explosive Child" really helped a dear friend of mine who was coping with the same sorts of things (outbursts followed by contrition) at about the same age:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Explosive..._1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1336499083&sr=1-1

I have read The Explosive Child. Somehow it wasn't as helpful as I hoped it would be. I do find the method works pretty well for sibling issues. This website has been really useful to me lately:

http://www.ahaparenting.com/

Although I don't know if it is helping DD, it is helping me.

Ultra, I'm glad you're seeing the psych soon. I hope you can get a full neuropsych workup as well.

Do share this family history in detail with the clinician. It takes a lot of expertise to tease apart depression vs. anxiety vs. Asperger's in a child, especially a gifted child. From what you wrote, I see all of them as possibilities and I'd want an expert to sort it out diagnostically AND give you a supportive action plan that will help your DD feel better.

Hang in there. Parenting a child like this is exhausting, but it can and will get better...
DeeDee

FWIW, I asked for an Asperger's eval as well, but their first available is January.

See if they run a cancellation list; often people pull out of evals, leaving them with open slots. That was how we got it done.

The psych you are seeing soon may also be able to intercede for a sooner appointment, or recommend someone appropriate with a shorter waiting time.

Best,
DeeDee

Yes, the woman on the phone said the psych would probably be able to intercede if she saw signs that DD was in need of that eval. We actually have a local autism "clearinghouse" whom I contacted to ask for recs for someone to eval a gifted, older girl and this was where they sent me, so I'm hesitant to go elsewhere.

To be fair, no one actually has been diagnosed with Asperger's, and that particular issue is only one side. But...the whole extended family is in agreement on one individual (who is now a young adult and remained undiagnosed...sigh) and most people who are old enough to remember another person (who was also, btw,an actual world-renowned genius in his field) also agree.

Ultramarina,

So sorry to hear that you DD is miserable. I would definitely say that kids can experience friction at school and still toe the line in behavior there. But the price that they pay for storing up that friction deep down inside is huge. You are the safety valve. You are the safest place to release all of that pent up anger and frustration, and so you get the brunt of it. It is not due to bad parenting. I think it is a testament to how much she trusts you to love her unconditionally that she knows that she can vent all of that raw emotion at you.

While your story was not exactly the same as ours, there were enough similar themes that it resonated with me. (And my son has every last one of the concerns that ColinsMum linked to, just to let you know!) Last year, DS(then10) was becoming so angry, frustrated, and depressed that by November we knew things were bad. We kept seeing Dr. Amend every three weeks for counseling. DS was rude and abrasive, particularly when he came home from school. He would get in our face and shout and hurl very forbidden curse word he knew. Then later he would cry and apologize, just like your DD. As the year progressed, he just quit at school, with grades plummeting to F's. And he was threatening to throw himself out of the window. His recurrent manta was that he was a failure at everything: socially, academically, etc. He had absolutely no self-esteem, and was repeatedly being told at school that there was something wrong with him because he was so different. (He is 2E with ADHD and sensory seeking behaviors.) The diagnosis of anxiety, social phobia, and depression was so strong that Dr. Amend chose to put him on Zoloft, which only made the matter worse. (But that is a different story)

We found out later that there was a great deal of bullying going on at school, and the teachers were blaming it on him because he was not like the other kids. Having problems with just a few kids can indeed cause a lot of the symptoms that you are describing. Also, you might be surprised at how clichish kids get at this age. Kids, particularly girls, seem to delight in suddenly abandoning old friendships for popular new ones and the power of exclusion. Maybe you could use this line of questioning to open a discussion of "How are things with DD at school?" with her teachers, before moving on to the question of academic challenges?

I agree with everything Grinity says. We needed frequent "mental health days", as Dr. Amend calls them, to finish out the dismal year. This fall we changed to a new school, and they recommended an immediate second grade skip. The new environment at school, new kids and teachers, and a better academic fit made ALL of the symptoms that you describe go away. The change was absolutely amazing. We still have a few snarly days here and there now, but I attribute this to normal pre-teen attitude that quickly becomes more polite when we call him on it. Last year, he couldn't turn his attitude around like that. He was so raw inside with frustration that no amount of typical parenting rules seemed to help him, i.e grounding, being sent to his room, losing computer privileges. It just confirmed in his mind that he was somehow broken and that life was not worth living.

I feel for you and your DD. I hope you get some answers from the Psych. evaluations. Just be sure to let your DD know that you are not taking her to it because there is something wrong with her. Let her know that it is an example of how much you love her and care about her that you are willing to try anything to help her. Then maybe she will open up about what is going on with her. For what is it worth, my DS had a very hard time opening up about how much pain he was in and what was causing it. He had to be out of the toxic environment before he could look back and see how bad it was.

I don't know how much is her venting frustration from not being challenged at school, or depression, or any other issues, but from a specific 'Transforming the Difficult Child' approach, you wouldn't expect to see a change in her until you can pull off getting in the habit of feeding her energy when things are going well. She needs to get energy from somewhere, so by not having a tantrum yourself you are making getting energy from acting out less appealing, but still it has to get replaced by the habit of feeding energy when things are going well. This is, for me, why 'The Explosive Child' just didn't help a lot. OK, I've stopped putting my finger in the electric socket, but what SHOULD I be doing instead? The answer is to work your butt off finding small but sincere, provable things to praise.
Weird thing is that you don't actually have to say the things aloud. Just by retraining your mind to notice when things are going well or at least neutral, you change on a subtle level that invites DD to change along with you.

((shrugs and more shrugs))
Grinity

I have noticed with my son that he seems more likely to get depressed when he doesn't get enough sleep and he seems to need more sleep when he is going through growth spurts. When he is sleep deprived the daily problems with our very slow internet really upset him. Not being able to get on message boards or do our online homeschooling when we want to is hard and the isolation he feels living in a small town where he does not fit in gets to him. Boys like him who are smart and do musical theater are looked at as possibly gay. People who are gay are shunned and kicked out of church and homeschool groups here. He also finds it harder to deal with wearing his painful brace for 14 hours a day and not being able to do fun things like other kids can. What I find interesting is that he is not depressed all the time because of what he is going through. I know I would have been at his age. I also find it interesting that when he is in public he can turn off his emotions. I think he learned this in acting classes. He can hold his emotions until he is at home and if he lets them out at home he apologizes and worries that I won't like him any more.

I know I get very depressed when I am sleep deprived and sometimes it doesn't have anything to do with the number of hours I am in bed. When I have a lot of things to worry about, I can't turn off my mind. My son is the same way. For example when I stayed up until 3 a.m. with my son to offer moral support while he wore his brace and then got up early for weeks to fix meals for my dad after he had knee replacement surgery wore me down and turned me into a depressed, emotionally drained mess--but I got through it and I will get through it when he has surgery on the other knee. I will watch my dad go through a lot of pain and then go home and make sure my son wears his brace so that he doesn't have to go through a surgery that is even worse than knee replacement surgery. Because I can't seem to learn the turning off the emotions thing that my son is able to do I will probably yell at him and then apologize and feel horrible and have even more difficulty sleeping.

Update: we had a 3-hour eval this morning. DD was seen by two different psychiatrists and filled out some forms; we were extensively interviewed and filled out some forms as well. She received a primary dx of anxiety, and they think there are some depression symptoms as well. Both doctors felt strongly that she is not on the spectrum, though they did not actually do a formal eval for that (they did ask a lot of questions related to it, however). They did not recommend medicating yet but did recommend cognitive-behavioral therapy for anxiety and OT (for sensory stuff). So that was interesting. Their feeling was that DD's explosive outbursts are a result of anxiety building up.

I feel sort of...blank? In a way I feel like we went and told them she was anxious and depressed, and they told us she was anxious and depressed. So, you know. When she spoke to them alone, she apparently talked a lot about her brother and about the girls at school who she says are bullying her.

Blank is a normal result from meeting with psychiatrists.

I think that's because anxiety and depression are generally diagnosed with self-reported symptoms.

You get some really odd symptoms in depression world such as pseudodementia and panic attacks in anxiety world, but for the most part, you're just looking at the DSM-IV-TR criteria, which are subjective.

Are her explosive outbursts the worst symptom that she's showing?

Well, they are the most dramatic and hard to deal with, but also she is very irritable and has a very short fuse and says a lot of negative and upsetting things.

That is sort of the way it works, but OTOH, there have been times when folks from this field have heard DH and I out, and said 'No Pathology here - just a normal cranky teen.'

I'm new to the boards and finding them very helpful. My DS, nine, was also recently diagnosed with depression and anxiety, which appears to have been triggered by bullying. It took us months to realize how bad the depression was because he acted angry and irritable, not sad. He was beating up his sisters and blew up any time we asked him to do something he didn't want to do. He was also self-harming by pinching, scratching, choking, etc. himself. It has been extremely difficult for our family but things are slowly getting better. Hang in there.

I recall that one of my girlfriends in college had a problem with depression when she was a kid.

I think her parents dealt with it by getting her really involved in an activity that she enjoyed. I think it hit her around 8 or 9.

My DD8 3rd grade has gotten crankier over the last couple of months and has been saying some things about school. I've tried talking to the teacher with mixed results (some over defensiveness, some dismissing) but DD is getting more verbal about some of the bullying issues and more insistant. She's gone from cranky to blaaaah and then acting scared to meet new kids. She got sick several days ago and has been home and talking more. I gave her a notebook to make a list of the stuff that's been happening and I'm sorry to say it's worse than I realized.

It's such a shame what "different" or more intense/emotional kids have to go through in school. There's always been bullying of some kind but there is a different twist to it these days and unfortunately sometime supported by the school through indifference or whatever the case.

Ultramarina,

Kudos to you for getting her in to see the psych. Too many people are in denial that kids can have very real psychological issues that need professional intervention. It's odd because if they have a physical problem, we are right there taking them to see a doctor, but psychological problems still have a stigma.

Cognitive behavioral therapy can be really helpful. The psych will usually teach some techniques to help her stay calm and stop the harmful self-talk that is probably going on inside her head. Sometimes if can be as simple as breathing exercises, meditating, tapping on pressure points or taking automatic negative thoughts (ANTS) and replacing them with positive statements. Sometimes those angry rages come from a very real fear that the world is out of control and one of the best antidotes for that is very calm parents who can reassure that they are there no matter what. (Not matter what she does, she can't drive you away.) It sounds like you have already figured that out, which I'm sure is helping a lot.

Lastly, I recommend the book "The Highly Sensitive Child." I saw some other posters recommended books, too. I haven't read those, but the HSC was very helpful to us when my younger DD went through some similar issues. She was younger, but the very scary rages happened daily to the point where I was afraid to leave the house with her because I never knew what was going to set her off. No matter what I said or did (comforting, punishing, ignoring, etc) helped. Fortunately, things are much better now and the start for us was exactly what your psych suggested- behavior therapy.

Here's a link:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Highly-Se...ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337048606&sr=8-1

Good luck with your dd. It sounds like she has a great mom.

Thanks everyone. I am sort of moving through some stages of grief, I guess. I feel sad for my DD, who is an amazing person. I feel worried about the road ahead. I feel some relief that we are moving forward.

I have high hopes for CBT. DD is a very teachable kid (duh, I guess) and she is also a very motivated kid. She wants this to get better.

Ultra, her motivation is a great asset. The challenge will be hers; if you help her own it and work on mastering it, she'll get there.

We have seen great progress through CBT and related strategies.

DeeDee

Hi ultramarina,

Has your DD read "Girls Think of Everything"?

http://www.amazon.com/Girls-Think-Everything-Ingenious-Inventions/dp/0395937442

My DD has recently become interested in history (they taught ZERO hours this year but we got her engaged in Feb. with home reading and a book review activity at the public library).

She loves Abigail Adams and Eleanor Roosevelt especially, and we went to the Glenn Curtiss Museum in Hammondsport NY where she saw all the exhibits about women in early flight.

Also I just checked a book out of the library called "The Curse of the Good Girl" by Rachael Simmons. I haven't read it yet but am intrigued by the idea of the mixed messages society (including parents, myself included) inadvertently send to girls about how they should behave vs. messages about them reaching their potential.

Best wishes, bzylzy

This blog post showed up today called "fifteen things you should give up to be happy". It sounds like its based in what I understand CBT to be, which is retraining the stories your mind tells yourself, I guess not really putting a positive spin in it but arguing against a negative spin. Well, here's the blog post. It's no magic wand, just a friendly little reminder.

http://www.purposefairy.com/3308/15-things-you-should-give-up-in-order-to-be-happy/

*ha ha ha ha*

I don't know why I am laughing exactly, but in some strange way I do find this funny. I just got home from a year-end conference with DD's teacher, who says that after studying DD all year and trying to figure her out, her opinion is that the issue is inattentive ADHD--although she also said that her "issue" is also that she is a highly gifted girl who marches to her own drummer.

Obviously not a professional diagnosis, but this is a teacher with numerous years of experience teaching in a gifted magnet, so. I've vaguely considered ADHD for her, but she's always done so well in school that it's seemed like it couldn't be right. I guess it's time to take more than a cursory glance?

She says that she does note some anxiety but was surprised by the anxiety dx. She has been in contact with the school social worker about keeping DD on the radar next year, which I am in favor of.