Hi all,

I'm new to this forum--finally a place where I might be able to get some feedback!

Here's the situation: I live on Long Island NY, the cut off date for my district is 12/1 and my son's bday is 12/13. We're considering trying to get him enrolled in early entrance to kindergarten for this Sept. Otherwise, he'd half to wait until next year.

We did have him tested and sure enough his IQ score is 152; he can read, do math etc. (same as most of your kids!)

So far, I've spoken to everyone (elementary principal, school board president etc.) in the district and have been told it's not likely to happen. I am currently waiting for a call back from the superintendent (will call again on Monday).

If he is not allowed early entrance, the only alternative is a private school that costs over $12,000 (not too many choices for him around here), or we wait until the following Sept.

I hear both sides that if he waits 2 more years, he'll be fine (he'll be the oldest, more mature, more time to develop etc.); the principal assured me that they would differentiate instruction etc. She even said that if we have to wait, to call her when we're ready, remind her of our conversation and she would find the most appropriate teacher/class for him.

We're just worried that he might be really bored (only half day as of now) if he waits. But he will also be the youngest, not as mature (maybe) if we send him early.

So, I guess my question is--should we wait? Maybe everyone is right, that he'll be fine. Or will it be a disaster (boredom etc.)

Is it worth spending over $12,000 (which we don't have) to send him early to kindergarten? (he would go in Sept., and then 1st grade next yr.)

Would appreciate any feedback at all!
Thanks!!!

If you did the private k, would he be able to enter public 1st grade the following year? I have heard some people on this board having trouble with that.

(Do you pay to go to the same school early? Or, are you talking about 2 different schools?)

Does he go to preschool now? Does he like it? How's the social stuff going? Dexterity okay?

Chrys

LOL!! Yikes! I think that's sooo true!

If he doesn't go to K next yr. he will be in preschool (where he is very happy). So, it's not the preschool that's my concern, it's waiting the two more years. I just hope that he's not too bored etc. I skim the forums and see how some say that it's unbearable for some of their kids that their so bored etc.


That's exactly what my husband says!

Thanks for the responses--

the private school would only be for kindergarten, then to first grade the following yr (district said this could be done)

socially, I think he's fine--gravitates to older kids anyway. BUT, there is still some maturity issues (basically, he acts like a four yr old boy at times--in other words, a big goof ball! But over the next several months, this may no longer be an issue.

His dexterity (fine motor skills) not so great; it was recommended to get him assessed to see if he qualifies for OT through the school district (not sure how bad it is either.)

Would the public school allow him to enter the 1st grade in 2011 even if he didn't attend K next year?

As far as I know K isn't mandatory in NY. How about finding a private school where he could attend a half day K? That way you could be able to lower the tuition. We sent our older one to half day K in Montessori even though most of the public schools around us have a full day K. I am glad we did. I don't think he would have been able to make it through a full day K.

I hope you plan on applying to Davidson once your son turns 5.

Since a lot of the school authorities push K as preparation to learning how to stand in line, raise your hand to talk, eat cafeteria food, use public restrooms, put on his own coat, shoes, etc; I wonder if they'd consider entering K at the beginning of the 2nd semester for the late birthdates? That way, the kid could get the skip, the school would see the child is ready for 1st, and you'd get an extra few months at home with your child.

Nothing else I can add here... except to copy & paste G3's very pithy comment!

That is a *BIG* sum of money for kindergarten. If he's happy and learning at home, I would stick with it and cross your bridges as you get to them. You're going to run into problems in the future no matter what you choose! Maybe get him into some open ended enrichment. Music lessons before kindergarten worked VERY well for us, but there are other options too. Another thing my kids learned through music lessons is classroom skills - working with a teacher, learning things incrementally, etc. Skills that might come in handy for a grade skip.

We looked at some high end private schools locally at that price point and up. I kind of felt, for that kind of money it should be an almost flawless solution. Your child isn't likely to learn anything there anyway unless it geared for PG students. All that being said, we are now homeschooling, which is working very well for us. But certainly isn't for everyone.

Good luck!

Isn't that the truth.

Our DD8 was "early-entranced" to K with a birthday 9 days past the cutoff. It was good for that year, but she was still academically ahead in almost everything and so we followed that up with subject acceleration in 2nd grade and then a full grade skip into 4th. So, the early entrance was the right way to go for us but wasn't enough.

With our DS6, we knew he was ready for K last year (and really the year before that) but we didn't think they'd consider early entrance for a boy with a b-date almost 3 months after the cutoff. So, we kept him in the preschool that he enjoyed three mornings a week. But, as the fall approached we were more and more certain that he should not be in K. So we talked to the school, he was tested, and then subsequently skipped K. It was a great move for him. He is still years ahead academically but is in all other ways a 1st grader.

I would see if the principal of the public school would consider letting your DS sit in on a K class for an hour or two now to see how it goes. Obviously, he'd be with kids a year older than him, but it would be a good way to observe how easily he separates from you, how well he interacts with the other children, whether he will get involved in the activities in the room, etc. If he fits in well, it might convince the principal that your DS would be fine in K next year, especially if the K teacher said nice things.

Also, I would ask the principal in what ways could he be placed in the right learning situation if he were to wait to go to K year after next. Would he be talking enrichment, subject acceleration, a skip to 1st? I'd try to nail it down a bit.

Many of us here have been in the same situation, so I hope we can help!

Are you sure that if you send him to private K they will actually put him in 1st next year? Is it just their word that you have or is there something written that says that they will do that?

It's such a hard choice because even if you send him this year he'll still be way ahead of his peers. My son (5) (as I'm sure a lot of kids here) could have started Kindergarten two or three years before he did and still would have been bored. I can't say that his level of boredom would be any different if I'd have had to start him a year later, if that makes sense.

The school said that they will work with you to give him a teacher that will be good for him? Have they said anything about differentiation? Will they move him up for some subjects? If they do will they only move him up one grade or will they consider moving him up to his level?

Wow! Thanks for all the great responses! Some good ideas here (but still so unsure!) --

Never even thought about skipping K. Interesting idea--he would be attending a preschool, that still plays, but also does some academic work. They also walk in the halls, eat lunch in the cafeteria etc. Is that enough, or is K really necessary prep for 1st? Would the transition straight to 1 st grade be too awkward or difficult? Has anyone else done something similar?




Never thought to do that either--that's probably a great idea if they would allow it. I'll keep it mind to ask the Superintendent when I speak to her Mon.


Jamie, what did you do w/your son? I guess he's in kindergarten now?

The school did say that they would definitely differentiate instruction, and make sure that they give him a good teacher. She gave me examples like if the class is learning how to add 2 M&M's + 3 M&M's , he could work on word problems, or he could create word problems. She explained that learning doesn't always have to be vertical, that within what the class is doing, he can do something more challenging yet still related. Sounds good in theory, but who really knows!

Is there anything to the argument that it's better he wait so he can be the oldest. Or if he's the youngest would it really matter?

We did something like that with DD6 last year. I thought about putting her in K when she was 4 1/2 (Feb b-day). Even spoke with the teachers and principle at the school she would be attending (private school so they were open to it). I think if I would have had her enter then she still would have been so far ahead that she would have been bored, being at home I liked the ideal of having her one more year at home with me and her little sister. We waited til she was 5 1/2, the teacher saw how advanced she was and suggested she be tested and maybe grade skip (which we did in Jan that school year) I don't know that we would have considered a grade skip at 4 1/2, but at 5 1/2 she was mature and ready to be with the 1st grade class, socially she has done great (although could still use more challenging work), is now in 2nd grade and she is anywhere from 1 to 2 1/2 years younger than her classmates. Hope that helps

We did early K for DS at Kindercare (cheaper than most private K.) He started K there midyear when he turned 4. When we enrolled him in public school the next year, they started him in K and then he was moved to 1st midyear (after he turned 5.) There is a state law here that 1st graders must be at least 5 years old.

He's in 3rd grade now, and doing well.

bbq797
i live on LI also (i will PM you with my district info). We are one year ahead- my DD5 is currently in K. We faced a similar decision last year, not because of cut-off dates but just whether we should go public or private.. Our choices were a very expensive gifted school (around 12K), a non-profit montessori with a great program (5K) or public school. We did public school and its been great in some ways and weak in others. Jury still out. Its so ironic because they have no policy against holding kids back to give them an edge, but they are so strict about doing the opposite. I am curious if we're in the same district- our district initials are HHH. i don't want to spell it out or these posts will come up whenever someone googles it!
irene

I think we are almost neighbors! We're in KP; it's bizarre how even the cut-off dates are different (isn't yours 12/31?). I'm very curious to see how ridged they are when I plead my case to the Superintendent on Monday.

Skylersmommy,
You mentioned that your daughter is younger than her classmates--is that an issue? Is it an issue for anyone else? That was one of our concerns about sending him early--that he would be the youngest instead of the oldest.

Age is definitely not an issue with any of our kids. DS11 has a summer birthday but went to K when he was a new 5, and he's had no issues because of it. DD8 is now 1.5 to 2+ years younger than her classmates and she's actually much more comfortable and outgoing now than she ever was with her agemates (partly because she doesn't have to hide her abilities, partly because she just is interested in the things the older kids are). In fact, she has a large group of really great friends, both her age and older, and nobody seems to care at all about her age even though they all know she's younger (and, in fact, she's invited to virtually every get-together, even when the guest lists are small). DS6 is the youngest in his class but every last one of his friends is more than a year older than he is. He's very social and no one cares that he's younger. BTW: my kids are all tall for their age, but I just think size is not important. My DD has friends in her class that are 1.5 years older and many inches shorter, but no one ever suggested they hold those kids back because of their size!

As far as starting 1st without the learning-to-go-to-school that K provides, for DS6 it was no big deal. We talked with him before he started about the basics like raising your hand and asking to go to the bathroom and going to the cafeteria for lunch, but these things literally took days for him to learn. Some things we never thought to mention to him and have figured out as we went along. In our case DS was familiar with the school layout because he has older siblings, but any child new to the school in whatever grade would have to find their way around.

In addition to your son maybe trying out a couple hours of K now, you might also consider sitting in on a K class for a bit. I think you'll find a HUGE range of maturity and behavior in a K classroom and, because the kids are the "proper" age, the teacher somehow manages to deal with issues of differing maturity. Unless your DS is very immature, I tend to think that he'd probably be indistiguishable maturity-wise given how close he is to the cutoff. HTH!

Hi bbq797,

Okay, this is going to be a long post! I hope it helps.

First: You have a big choice to make, and a lot of factors are going to influence what you do. When I'm faced with a big problem, I break it into smaller component parts. This helps me analyze each factor on its own merits and helps me weight how important each one is relative to the others.

Quick intro: I have three kids (haven't had them tested). The eldest (9) has skipped two grades and the youngest (5) has skipped K. All three have subject accelerations, too. They go to private schools. So I've faced your decision. Obviously, YMMV, but here are my thoughts:

1. Overall, I can't emphasize enough that you need to learn about how public schools operate and, in particular, how your district deals with gifted kids.

Some points to ponder:

* What's the district's gifted program like? Get specifics. Do the kids get acceleration or just "differentiation"? How many hours per week does it consume?

* What are the local policies regarding grade skips? Be careful if they tell you "We'll put him in K and observe him for a while."

* What's the cutoff for entrance into the program? Is it an IQ of 130 (98th percentile) or 124-125 (95th percentile) or something else? An IQ of 152 (using an SD of 15---Stanford-Binet uses this scale, I think) is around the 99.97th percentile or 1 kid in about 3800.

This means that the school district hasn't seen many kids as bright as your son. So their idea of appropriate differentiation is based on a group of children who don't learn anywhere near as quickly as your son does. This might make them reticent to believe you when you tell them what he can do and how fast he can absorb ideas.

In my experience out west and from what I've read, most schools don't really get giftedness and don't get high giftedness+ at all.

2. What is the district's evidence that your son will be better off as the oldest kid in the class? Ask them this question, directly.

Be careful if they answer in vague terms. If they do, push them a bit for specifics. How many profoundly gifted kids have they dealt with? What is their approach to these kids? Have they read A Nation Deceived?

Many schools tend to parrot the conventional wisdom that being younger than your classmates is damaging or otherwise bad. Oddly enough, they don't apply the same logic to redshirted kids who may be 18 months or more older than their classmates. Common beliefs include "he won't be able to drive at the same time his classmates do." Another one is "they all even out by third grade." Both of these arguments are notable only for the heights they reach on the Scale of Edumacational Bogosity.

In any event, you'll need to question them carefully and point out how your son thinks differently from other children his age. They might not believe you.

3. The public school told you that they "differentiate," but until you know exactly what that means (in writing ideally, but not necessarily), be cautious. The comment about not all learning needing to be vertical puts up a red flag in my mind. Differentiation has been known to mean:

a) More of the same math problems
b) The same kinds of math problems but with larger numbers; so this could be 154 + 248 instead of 54 + 48.
c) Reading an extra book at the same level of complexity as the one everyone else is reading.


4. Remember that schools are under the thumb of No Child Left Behind (NCLB). This law provides incentives solely for increasing test scores of low-achievers, and it punishes schools (sometimes severely) that don't raise their scores.

NCLB provides no incentives at all for helping gifted kids, and the schools therefore have no incentives for helping their brightest students. Don't ever forget this.

5. Are you sure that the question I quoted at the top of this message is the right one to be asking? You may wish to consider how best to meet your son's overall educational needs, rather than just thinking of getting him into K now instead of next year.

6. It can take time to get used to the idea of grade skips. One skip seemed odd, but we got used it relatively quickly. Two seemed very weird when DH and I first started talking about it, but now it seems normal (and so very right).

7. Are you looking at the LI School for the Gifted? Their program looks very, very good.

The thing about schools that deal with gifted kids exclusively is that they're going to be far more likely to get the idea that cognitive skills like doing math and reading early are very different from fine or gross motor skills. This means that they won't tell you that your son can't skip a grade because he trouble holding a pencil. Rather, they'll be more likely to accelerate him in reading and math while he learns how to write his name without wincing.

8. Can you afford to send your son to the private school indefinitely? Do they give financial aid?

9. Finally, be sure to ask the private school the same questions that I mentioned above and any others that you ask at the public schools. Get promises in writing BEFORE you give them a check.

HTH! Must go.

Val

hey bbq797,
yes ours is 12/31.. i have a friend in KP and he is Dec 6 and i was shocked that the cutoffs were different. Good luck with the superintendant. We had a good meeting with our principal last week. If anything we feel now we will get a good teacher for first.
about my dds age- we thought with a June birthday she'd be right in the middle of the class. She is actually one of the 4 youngest. There are three kids who "belong" in first. Then a bunch of winter birthdays, and two very young kids with Dec. birthdays. Even the really young ones seem to be doing fine, though, so don't see it really as a problem. I think the curriculum is fine for most older four year olds - its not that challenging. Also, if you're interested in Montessori let me know as the school i know of is pretty close to you and a real bargain. My son attended it for preschool but i know montessori is not for everyone.


irene

My son is in K and he's the youngest one and is doing ok with that part of it. I'm having a hard time getting him differentiation even though they promised me when I talked to them last year that it wouldn't be a problem.

I'm just leery to take anything that the school officials say at face value. Maybe you can talk to somebody in the district that has faced something like this before and see what they say?

I always felt exactly this way and I was one of the very youngest in my grade school class. There was no id-ing of GT kids at my grade school, and even if there were, no one would have picked me out of a line up. I spend tons of emotional and mental energy trying to blend. I still catch myself doing it. For a long time, I thought I must have felt this way because I was the youngest. But now I think it was the GT extreme sensitivity that made me feel like not a fit.

I think this might be one of those issues that comes up for some GT kids unless they are placed ideally. My son has never had any of this kind of sadness or angst for the 2 years he attended school and he was one of the oldest. He always fit well socially and was just generally confident in who he was. He wondered what was wrong with the whole school system instead of himself. Regardless, I do think this is something to be watching for no matter where or how you place a gifted child. I think my daughter had some of this angst as a preschooler last year.

My son missed the public school cut off by over 4 months but was able to start at a small private school this year instead. It's been a huge success academically and socially, but mainly because the school offers each child an individualized curriculum. Even though DS is the youngest in his class, he is still way beyond his classmates in reading and really needs the differentiation they give him. So from my perspective, unless the $12K private school is going to give your son an individualized curriculum, it won't be worth it--early enrollment alone won't solve your problems. On the other hand, if the school DOES turn out to be a good fit and worth the money, then it's going to be awfully hard to pull your son out after kindergarten and settle for public school. My husband resisted paying for private school (and we pay half of what you're looking at), but now that DS is there and thriving, DH and I both know there's no going back.

This is one of the things that I thought long and hard about, her not being with her agemates, even when I had her IQ testing done the tester said I should consider another grade skip in a year or two (yikes)

I would keep thinking about my best friend who I met in high school and is 2 years younger than myself and who I would consider PG, she should have graduated early,and gone to college, there was nothing the teachers could teach her high school and it was a waste of time for her to be there. She would go to school once a week (maybe) do a test in her classes and get all A's on her report card (she did eventually get in trouble for doing this). She would also get into a lot of other trouble because she was very, very bored (she's now a successful VP at a large company )

Honestly I think it's something you have to look at each year because his needs may change. Also what works for one child may not work for another. My DD is tall for her age and very, very social so it works for her. I do feel she still needs more academically and we will make changes as she needs them.

That being said, DD has adjusted nicely with her class, age has not been an issue with her or her classmates. Even later on I don't think (hope) that this will be an issue, the way DD carries herself is mature (don't get me wrong she can be goofy too) but unless asked her age I don't think classmates will know she is younger. Hope that helps

Thanks again for all the responses--lots of insight here! I'm so glad I decided to post--most people just shrug it off as no big deal, he'll be fine or why rush, let him be a kid. But it seems to be a bit more than that. So I appreciate all of your perspectives!


Val, thanks for the long post--definitely will have to write down a list while I'm talk to to her (Superintendent) so I don't forget. But,
I think that by asking that question, that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to look at things from all angles and then decide what's best for him now and in the long run.

In his preschool the classes are grouped according to cut off dates in your district. BUT, since they know I'm thinking about sending him to kindergarten next year, they suggested switching him to the older (4-5yr old class). This class is the one that would be going to kindergarten next year. He tried it out for a while slowly for about a week, and now just this past week was the first we he officially transitioned into that class. He loves it! The teachers say it's probably a better fit--the kids are older and intellectually a closer gap. BUT, they also say you can tell there's an issue of maturity--he's still a wiggly, goofy four yr. old. Also, his fine motor skills are a bit weak and can't quite do little things like button his jeans etc. We're wondering if this will not be an issue by the time Sept. rolls around in 8mos from now. If it's a match socially, a better fit academically, then we just have to wait and see maturity/emotionally where he's at. We are just hoping that the district give us a choice, if not then that's why we were considering private kindergarten.



Good point!


irene,
we did check out a Montessori school--wasn't a great fit. The director actually told us "I would hate to see the public school system squelch your son's enthusiasm, and would love to take him, BUT he's a bit of a live-wire and you know, we run a certain kind of program here and can't have disruptions." I'm sure there are different programs, but this one didn't seem right for him. (he got excited to see a map on the wall and ran up to look at it and was trying to show us where we live etc. Then he saw a globe and asked if he could see it, the girl responded "no" and he got really upset. I guess it was pretty disruptive etc.) Oh well!

The school where Obama's kids go in DC charges $29,000 for K. We just had this situation (cutoff 9/1, B-day 9/11) and kept our son in his preschool for a second year with the 4s-5s. He did much better behaviorally in his second year and was sort of a leader in the class, showing the new kids how things worked in the class. He started reading at 3.6 or so and was doing 100 piece puzzles at 3. he's not a 150, but very high in non-verbal. We didn't push for early entrance and DS6 is bored and complains that he doesn't learn anything. We didn't really know about the early entrance to 1st, which I think would have been the way to go. We are getting ready to push for a grade skip to second, but I think it will be harder than it would have been for early entrance to 1st. Since you mention dexterity issues, I think early entrance to 1st might be a better course. As for learning how to follow directions, etc. I would bet your preschool covers that. Hope this helps.

When I was entering kindergarten I missed the cut-off my about a month and my parents did what you are considering - paid for a year of private school.

I used to think that was a mistake - I had a lot of difficulty socially. But now I think that I would have had MORE difficulty if I'd been one of the oldest. And I was in a district with a lot of bright kids. Also - my parents were kind of clueless. I think it would have been easier on me if they hadn't dressed me funny (I'm serious).

The ONLY reason I would suggest not pushing him ahead is if he is small for his age and your family places a lot of emphasis on athletic achievement. Then it might not be the right choice.

I don't think 12k is unreasonable for private kindergarten on L.I. I realize that it's a large sum in an absolute sense, but it's not unreasonable tuition.

I have two wiggly boys and they navigate a very organized, quiet Montessori classroom and love it. I suspect the Montessori director was letting you know that YOU need to be on board with it, not that your son couldn't acclimate to it. IOW, if your environment at home is markedly different, it will be hard on him. I have found that even though my sons are required to be calm and quiet and follow classroom procedure, the Montessori philosophy of freedom within limits has been wonderful for them. I definitely don't see the negative attitude towards naturally active young boys in their school that I have seen in some other educational environments. One other thing about Montessori - there ARE different programs, but there aren't really supposed to be. AMI is what Montessori is supposed to me. A good AMS school can also be an excellent choice, but I've seen some lousy ones. Anything else makes me very suspicious. I'm guessing you were looking at an AMI school because the director had the balls to basically tell you that it was her way or the highway. That can be pretty irritating, but that's the way they are. They do it by the book. It's an educational philosophy that has worked for a lot of kids.

For kids who are doing crazy advanced stuff - like reading at age 3 - maybe Montessori, with it's insistence on mastering one "work" before advancing to the next, isn't ideal. But if your child is in that range what is ideal? We have a couple programs locally that look for 145+ I.Q.s and several children from our Montessori school have gone on to them. So I know that our Montessori school has educated other children in that range and the families have been satisfied.

I agree is a bad indication that the district is sweating 12 days in a kid with a 150 + I.Q. That's really very smart and he's going to need some special consideration.