DS8 is a third grader who has always been a great sleeper getting about 10-11 hours. He likes to read a good deal before bed and recently has been hooked on a new series.
In the last three weeks, even though we say lights out at 8:30, we found him up reading later and later. Even if he finishes a particular book in the series, he just grabs anything in his room and keeps reading and now he's up until 11. He's been getting about 8 hours but I can't believe this can be enough for him.
He's also started biting his nails again. He has been under some "kid stress" with a piano recital coming up with a challenging piece, he worked hard on an independent study project, he's been trying to do some math enrichment at home to teach himself harder stuff, and basketball season is starting for him. Plus he has his WJ Ach coming up Sunday to try to qualify for DYS following getting qualifying scores on the WISC although I've said little to nothing to him about it. But generally, he has plenty of time for free play, relaxing, hanging with his sister and parents, so I don't think he's feeling overburdened.

Of course, since the days are shorter, he doesn't get as much outside play time as during other parts of the year.

Should I be worried? I am concerned he may be learning unhealthy sleep patterns. When I was his age I did the same thing and had horrible sleep habits.
Can he do well on 8 hours?

I'd answer that question with another question: "How is he doing now?" My DD7 tends to show significant behavioral changes when she's not getting enough sleep, and in comparing notes with other parents, that appears to be common. So, if he seems to be behaving normally, he might be ok. If he's exhibiting negative behaviors that are unusual for him, sleep tends to cure that.

If your DS is not having problems, I wouldn't worry about the 8 hours of sleep a night. The range of normal is fairly broad. All three of my kids routinely sleep about 8 hours a night starting from a younger age. My two 9-year-olds don't get into bed until about 11PM and get up about 7:30 AM. Sometimes I do have to make sure that they actually go to sleep after getting into bed.

I would be careful with this. I know many say their gifted kids need less sleep--but has he, historically? Kids his age should get 10 to 11 hours. There are a LOT of studies on the negative effects of sleep deprivation in kids (and adults). It's been linked to obesity and to "ADD" that isn't ADD.

This is one area where I'd put my foot down. FWIW, my DD has also been secretly reading after hours (we strongly suspect). I can see the difference. She is more hyper. I know a lot of kids who get hyper when tired. We are trying to figure out how to handle this since we don't have hard proof.

Yeah, unfortunately you have to catch them in the act if you plan to take action on it.

We've had a lot of family meetings about sleep hygiene; but then again, both affective disorders and insomnia are problems in our extended family, so this is one of those genetic things that requires lifestyle awareness for our DD in particular.

Another idea for you, though-- we definitely see sleep disturbances as one of the very first of the many warning signs that DD is struggling to keep a lid on her anxiety.

The other thing that we notice is that she has a LOT of trouble with sleep disturbances between November and March. Well, we live nearly at the 48th parallel, so this is also not a huge leap-- people who have SAD to one degree or another around here are more common than those who don't.

Combatting both of those things successfully has involved DAILY exercise (~1 hr) first thing in the morning-- and outdoors. In natural light. This provides the physical activity, the natural light from being outdoors, and it's early enough in the day that it doesn't trigger late-night wakefulness.

We also limit screen time within an hour of bedtime. This is one that a lot of people overlook, but it is the one that most physicians recommend trying first to manage insomnia.

Hopefully something in there is helpful. We've been battling this since DD was about three. She's never been a good sleeper, though.

*minor rant* We were doing well with DD then 8's bedtime at 7:30, until the doctor prescribed a bedtime snack. At 9:30. She just looked confused when we were upset at the late hour. Now we have no control over bedtime because by 9:30, we are exhausted and our parenting workday should be OVER. It is far too easy for her to forget to go to sleep. *grumble* *end rant*

lJoy I don't understand? Why was she prescribed a snack and why was it after her bedtime?

My apologies to the OP - I don't want to derail this thread.

She has diabetes. Three hours after her last meal of the day, she had to check her blood sugar and respond to it by eating a large snack, a small snack, nothing, or taking more insulin. Of course she just loved having the size of her dessert dictated by a number on a screen... Now she has an insulin pump, so she just always has the snack and gets a variable amount of insulin for it. But she still can't go to bed at 7:30 unless we eat dinner at 4:30, which isn't happening. The timing is dictated by the active time of the insulin.

To tell the truth, we could find another solution if she wanted to sleep earlier, but she doesn't. Of the many things we would have to demand of her, I guess it just fell off the bottom of the list. She does her best homework at that time of the day. I just wish she wasn't always tired in the mornings.

Thank you all so much!! This input was very helpful.

Historically, he's needed sleep in the 10 hour range. He's a very active kid so generally between sports practices and playing outside afterschool, he would get a good deal of it. But upon thinking, we are in between sports seasons and have had some "bad" (well for southern Cal) weather so fewer opportunities to be outside.

It's funny, I'd read the recommendations that kids limit screen time to avoid sleep issues so, since kindergarten, he hasn't watched TV during the school week and really very little on the weekends. He gets only a half hour or so on the computer for school stuff. But that would have been a good place to start for other kids.

I am trying to see if his behavior is any different but it's hard because he is such an emotional, sensitive, prone-to-quick-melt-downs, and blood-sugar-stability-dependent kid anyway. KWIM?

lJoy-Yes! DS is one of those in the 15% in weight boys who needs to eat about every 1-2 hours or he is a quivering mass. He needs to have a snack before bedtime and I suspect that gives him an extra boost of energy rather than having a sleep-inducing effect, but that has been in place for years. I feel your pain on that one, though.

Howler-yes, I am definitely worried he has some anxiety that he is trying to handle, especially given he has been biting his nails again.

I think you are all right on the money. I will keep a close eye on it and see how things go in short term while still encouraging him to go to sleep when I tell him to.

I totally relate to his not wanting to put the book down. I hate starting new books during the work week, because I have to stay up until it's done and going to work on 2 hours sleep is not pretty.

Blood sugar is an issue all day, yes! My sister and I deal with the prone-to-meltdowns issue in ourselves, and I have learned much more from DD's dietitians. If you don't have professional help on this one yet, I do have suggestions for you:

-Protein is best. Fiber and fat are good. All snacks should contain plenty of protein. A piece of cheese or beef jerky is MUCH better than an apple.

-You probably know that sugar is bad already - but any finely divided starch is equally bad. So soft bread, popcorn, and applesauce are poorer choices than wheat berry bread, coarse-cut oatmeal, and a whole apple.

-Ideally, aim for a mix of protein, fat, and carb. One terrible day I had cottage cheese with maple syrup for breakfast - all protein and sugar, no fiber or fat - and was going up and down like a yo-yo all morning.

-Even within desserts, there is a huge range. Chocolate has a slow, long-term profile. Hard candy, or even worse marshmallows, has a very sharp fast acting profile that can leave a low in its wake. Try aiming for a slightly earlier, longer acting bedtime snack if you think this is contributing to the problem.

And yes, I read long into the night if I love the book too.

"Normal" gifted sleep is a hard thing to judge... DS~7 has been trending downwards in sleep, right now it is 9 hours. I was closer to 7.5 hours when I was 8 and was down to 5 by high school, but it was a steady trend.

Both DS and myself, suffer the "brain won't shut off" for sleep. He needs music, I tend to have a documentary on. Reading doesn't work for me as it just gets the brain reengaged. If it is his brain won't shut-down, maybe some way for him to focus his attention away from his thoughts like music would help.

The number one way we gauge if DS is "getting enough sleep" is whether he wakes up on his own in the morning.

I have no trouble falling asleep, but I only need about 5 hours. Anything more leaves me with a headache. (I can't meditate though - omg - talk about brain not shutting off...)

My DD10 and DS8 get anywhere from 7-9 hours, depending on how late they stay up to read or how early they wake up. Their in-class performance varies, although in a recent survey of their teachers I was told that they're not consistently sleepy (only occasionally). Mind you I give them protein shakes in their lunch which I think helps (I sometimes think DD has ADHD like her brother, so I use the recommendations for ADHD on both of them). FYI, I use whey isolate, and I'm careful about the amount - too much can be hard on kidneys so you need to monitor protein intake carefully if you supplement.

Thank you all again. I already put many of your thoughts into action over the weekend especially with regard to the types of food he's eating for a late night snack.

Thank you thank you!!