Removed

My older daughter took Math 1B and Math 2A (second and third semester of Calculus) at a local college when she was a high school senior. AP calculus is the highest math class offered at high school. She took the classes for credit meaning taking tests and have a grade on her transcript.

My feeling is that teachers are better at junior college than those of AP calculus at high school. Students are more serious too because those in Math 1B and 2A class plan to major in science/engineering and to transfer to University of California systems. In general, she had pretty positive experience.

If you plan to show the college transcript to other institutions during college application, then you need to consider the grade that he may get in college class. Keep in mind that universities want to see that a student takes challenging classes and gets As.

I would not too concern about him taking the class again down the road. If he plan to major in any science, he probably need to re-take biology or chem or physics class when he gets to university. Junior colleges and high schools usually do not have the same resources. Math may be different since no costly lab is needed.

CFK wrote "I'm wondering about the big picture, though. What kind of impact would this have down the road?"

It is usually beneficial for high school students to take university class if they are intellectually ready. I could not think of anything negative. If the class is too hard, then just drop it or take another class that is a bit lower. No harm done.

Hi,

My own experience now quite a few years ago, I took one university course during my senior year in high school, auditing, good experience, was very illuminating as to what university was like which I think helped me have some insight into choosing a u for the following year. The subject material wasn't particularly hard and it was nice to learn I could handle that level. I couldn't consider taking it for credit as the u was an hour away and I couldn't be there for sure every time. After starting u myself I saw a upper level class in that subject, not usually open to freshmen, approached the teacher and they said no problem, take the class. That led to a research assistant job starting as a freshman with that professor, something other students didn't usually do til later on, so all around a great thing for me. She gave me a nice reference helping me get into the next school after university. (Also led to a boyfriend who was a junior which was a cool thing.)

My husband took AP calculus as a sophomore in HS and then took 2 for credit math and physics courses a semester for the next 2 years at his local state U. No one apparently asked him whether he wanted to do that or not, he was just signed up by his parents with the idea that that was the natural course of events for someone who'd finished with what high school had to offer. His high school was helpful in rearranging his other curriculum and he graduated with his class. He says it was a good experience, he liked the material and was able to transfer all the credit to his eventual university. His grades were not particularly good but the transferred credits did not take the grade info along with them so no harm done. He eventually gave up math in university (thinks he probably would have whether or not he'd taken extra classes ahead) but all those advanced credits gave him room to follow some interests beyond just the required courses for his major. He did wish that the local U math teachers had been more enthusiastic, but says that at his eventual more prestigious U they weren't that great either and he doesn't think that turned him off of math. As a perk of university, he got a college ID that he used to get into local bars.

Polly

It was quite a while ago for me, too. I started at about 12 when my dad taught a math course at the local community college and taking courses for credit my freshman year of high school. I needed to do it on my own time, though, because my school didn't believe in acceleration (even though the community college did). However, some of the credits didn't transfer to my university a few year later, and I had to redo them in college... However, I did meet some real peers during my experience, which was better than getting credit for me. I also was able to learn new material.

C-
Many kids who audit take a related exam such as an SAT II or subject test to prove mastery. You can also get a nice rec letter from the professor when the course is completed.

I was also going to mention the rec. letter from the professor.
DS audited Calc 1 over the summer. This was between 8 and 9 grade. Since the University class started in the beginning of May, I took him from school a good month early. He really enjoyed that!
He audited the class but took all the tests, did all the homework etc. The professor offered to write a letter should we ever need it (disclosure - we know a lot of math prof. at that particular U).
The reason for the class was so he could take AP Calc BC as a freshman, which he is now doing. Next year he will have to take classes at the U, but his HS allows it early - there is actually one freshman that is taking Calc 3 now.
The biggest difference between the college and HS courses is the fact that you do them in half the time and while the material might not be overwhelming, the workload might.
If you are looking at the early graduation from HS your son's situation will be looked upon more carefully and you will be able to explain more than regular college applicant. Ask professors to write a rec. letters that will include all of his grades etc. This to me is a win/win situation becasue if the grade is good, you ask for the letter if it is not, you do not.

If you are able to pay for the class I would not assume that he would have to audit just because he's in 10th grade. There are certainly schools that will allow students to take for a grade younger than that.

That said, auditing is a great way to start college classes because there is less pressure.

The other option you might want to consider is finding a mentor.

He is taking AP Calc BC at the HS this year and it looks like after that he will have to take classes at our flagship.
Also, is there an ARML team where you are? It would be worthwile to look into it. In our state all the top math kids meet at the ARML. Great mentoring for younger kids!

CFK-

I always believe rules are meant to be broken...when appropriate. I would see if you could persuade the college to change the rule (age limit or credit pre-req). Or maybe try one audit and then approach them. I know my kids would find it difficult to do all the work without anything to show for it.

Also, as an aside, my DS 11 is taking a community college math course for credit, but before we negotiated an agreement between the middle school and the college, he took Fractal Math online, which he enjoyed, and Statistics. Going outside the standard sequence might be enjoyable.

Back in the dark ages I took college classes before finishing high school. I essentially did it instead of finishing high school. Without a high school diploma they had me take a series of exams to show basic knowledge to see what I qualified to take for credit. Once completed I was allowed to matriculate and register like everyone else. That was at a community college so I don't know it that is relevant to you. I loved it!

Hopefully we still have several years before we're facing this issue square on, but it's nonetheless a very pertinent topic of conversation right now.

How old were you when you started taking the college course(s) and how long until you started full time? Did you find many kids your own age? And if not, how well were you received by the older kids?

I've been reading a bunch of the heady research on this, but am ready for some anecdotal info now.

Thanks!

I absolutely hated high school and the community college classes were like heaven to me. I started at 16 and made friends who were a year or two older than me. Some of the high school seniors from my high school took classes as well. These were supplements or replacements for kids who were going to finish high school. I started full time right away. If I remember correctly I had to take one math class that was non credit since I had not completed trig yet but other than that I was in college. I had some other issues going on - family stuff - and did not end up finishing college any earlier than if I had stayed in high school but I did very easily transfer to an excellent four year university and then on to graduate school. I think the rule was that once you had at least 30 college credits you could apply to a four year college without a high school transcript. I never got a high school diploma...and it never mattered.

Also in the dark ages, I had all I needed to graduate from high school except one year of English and one year of Gym class. The high school canceled all of the AP classes. Thus, I enrolled in the local state university on the basis of great 11th grade SAT scores and showed up only enough to fulfill the requirements for the two classes. First semester, I took French advanced grammar and composition, introductory Biology, and second semester calculus. Second semester, I took an advanced French literature course conducted entirely in French, with fellow students who were seniors or graduate students. I took Microbiology with juniors and seniors, and third semester calculus.

The following year, I went away to Harvard, which gave me no credit for any of my previous college courses, and where I had to argue for appropriate placement. The French department adviser wanted me to take a 4th semester language course,so in fluent French, I told her it would be useless - and I never took any more French classes. I talked my way, over the adviser's objections, into fourth semester calculus. I took a more advanced general biology class, and advanced general Chemistry and Physics there. Thus it was an advantage in the end, even without credit.

My daughter is 11 now and two years ago in 5th grade her ACT composite score was 19. She may start her first college course when she is in 9th grade. We will have to look at our options at that time.

@pelsteen & @lanfan:

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

I had no idea what things were like back in the "dark ages," and it gives me hope for the future.

I've been reading more & more about specialized early-entrance programs at many universities designed to provide enhanced support to the younger college students -- and these look quite promising.

Our son is slated for HS graduation at 15 or 16 and I'm working hard to wrap my mind comfortably around that concept so that I don't spend the next several years doubting our current decision to skip another grade.

Just as an aside I think many kids would benefit from beginning college at 16 instead of sticking around in high school. The social environment in more forgiving and the classes are more interesting. I am certainly not PG and neither are my kids but I assume they would benefit. I have often wondered about the wisdom of AP classes in general. Why not just take the actual college courses and get the actual college credits. I tend to think it has more to do with state politics and funding than it does with kids.

Is there a way to 'go fast' through the prerequesite classes using online courses? Sometimes courses are designed for kids who took the class once and flunked to 'get up to speed quickly' - I think the catchphrase is 'credit recovery' - not very deep, but designed to get kids their credentials quickly.

I don't think that it is a nescessity, but if it helps, why not?

Smiles,
grinity

Oh, gee. Thanks for adding something else to my list of concerns.

Although, considering how little he appreciates my advice now (@ 8yrs), I certainly hope it can't get much worse after "p" arrives. Delusional, I know -- but one can hope, right?

Hi Dandy,
How close is your DS to age 9? I found that DS had a 'mini-puberty' at age 9. Mostly mental, but some physical changes (odor) as well.

The problem with 'p' is that DS is just as unimpressed with my advice as always, but he acts much less wise. So in the 8-11 years, I could ask a few pointed questions and DS would head in the right direction, by consensus.

Now, DS13 really does appear 'stupider'than he used to be in many basic life skills. I figure that the hormonal changes are a bit like having a buzzing flourescent lightbulb that is constantly driving DS to the edge misery. I'm still hoping that it will calm down soon.

Smiles,
Grinity

He just turned 8 last month.

But his "Dad-knows-nothing" attitude has been present since birth.

My work-around has simply been to have any ideas proffered by teachers. So far this has worked quite well, especially for "character-building" exercises.

Last week I tried to teach him a short-cut in math... which he characteristically refused to implement. The homework task took about three times longer as a result, with plenty of errors.

His teacher, helping him with the issue, offered the same hint a couple days back and *gasp* it was the best advice in the world. DS implemented the strategy, saved time, reduced errors, solved world hunger, etc.

When I asked him about it last night, he said, "No comment, Dad!"

Ha-ha on him. But as long as he learns & improves, I don't really care who the teacher is.

Just to reiterate, kids who audit college courses can still take exams and get credit via CLEP , DANTES, or other subject test offered by the college, as well as AP exams offered through the College Board. SAT subject tests might also be used to prove mastery, and perhaps help with placement.

A few things make it easier for a young student to be admitted for credit:
1. high ACT or SAT scores
2. completion of all/most high school material available in a subject
3. confidence and self advocacy