I'm trying to help my teenager figure out a direction he want to go after H.S.? Yesterday we had a meeting with his school counselor to plan for the last two years of H.S. and the upcoming college search. When the counselor asked DS what he was interested in doing after H.S. he just shrugged. After a few questions where he 'had no answer' which is very typical for him on this type of question. In order to move the meeting on I finally had to interject that we had already talked about going to 4 year college to study some type of STEM and DS planned to take 2 more years of math & science in H.S. (I'm trying hard not to speak for him but we could have spend the whole meeting hemming and hawing.) It's clear from his transcript that he is much stronger in math/science that the humanities so this was met by agreement by all.

The counselor brought up the results from a 'career inventory' that he has been asked to do. Recently he told me he thought this kind of thing was not useful as he had no idea how to rate any of the answers, the questions are all stupid and had no idea how to respond much of the time. He really doesn't play well with this type of psychological survey. Amusingly it rated my son's top choice as "Zoologist" which is something I might have said when he was 4 as his preschool passion was animals. But this is something he grew out of and not something I see him interested in these days. He even looks at me funny when I mention it as if he has totally forgotten. I see him more in math/computer science or engineering. And honestly he does better in Chem than Bio because it's more based on math. This survey that by his words he didn't try very hard on did identify computer programmer as another option for him so I'm not sure it's totally inaccurate. And if you ask what science he WANTS to take next year his topic choice is AP Biology over AP Physics or AP Chem, but I think that's partly because the other students say that AB Bio is a good class with a good teacher.

The question I was hoping this board could help me with was unusual idea's to help my 2E son figure out what he might be interested in besides playing computer games. Any idea's on how I can help him that don't involve filling out 'stupid' questionnaires. (His words) I don't think he needs to have a precise 'career" figured out at 16. And we can continue to plan around the fact he is interested in STEM. But to find a good fit college it really helps to know if you are looking in engineering, math/computer science or the biological sciences particularly if one is looking at smaller schools. In a search to see what colleges we might tour this summer it was very obvious that many schools don't have engineering programs. And while you can find good CS programs in engineering schools, you don't don't need a good engineering school to find a good CS school.

Has he had any exposure to what those career fields mean as far as a daily work life? It might be appropriate for him to shadow (ex. spend a half day) with people working at a variety of jobs. It's pretty hard to evaluate whether you might like something without having seen or experienced it in some fashion.

Alternately, has he attended any camps or other classes outside of school that have really excited him?

Is it possible to focus on small schools that have fairly good/small science departments instead of determining which STEM field he wants?

When I was in HS, I was leaning towards physics simply because I enjoyed that the most in HS and then in college, found no interest in doing physics, and "fell" into computer science my sophomore year simply because it was a requirement for another field that I was more interested in - if you had asked my first year roommate if she thought I would end up as a CS major, she would have laughed so far since I hated computers my first year.

And I have so many friends who had similar journeys to their major(s)... to make me think that unless a high school student is so passionate about a field, liberal arts college is not a bad option to explore - and really look at how comfortable he will be at that college. Although I did not really have any idea on possible career and would have never seen myself on the path I am on now, I did know what school environment I wanted and looked for that as my priority.

I have a similar story. I went to college with the idea of studying Environmental Studies realized quickly that the major was more politics and less science. Ended up with a math degree because it was easiest and took a lot of computer science classes. I ended up worked as a computer programmer for 15 years.

Unfortunately more and more schools make changing majors while at school very difficult because of increase in major requirements and demand to get students out in 4 years. This is particularly acute in Engineering. And very few small schools have Engineering programs. My local state schools that have Engineering require entrance into the major at the time one applies. What I think he needs to figure out before applying for colleges in 18 months is if he is interested in majoring in Engineering vs.. the rest of stem.

I love the idea of shadowing someone in the field. You could also arrange a couple of interviews where he can ask questions over lunch (free lunch is a great motivator).

If you don't know anyone who's working in the area, you could research the professional organizations for relevant fields and reach out to the local branches... they may be able to connect you to mentors to shadow or interview and you might be able to attend one of their meetings as a guest (these can be fun and insightful in an "inside baseball" kind of way).

For STEM research outside of the commercial sector, the local university is probably your best bet.

The book What Next might be helpful.

Also the college board list of majors.

While I don't imagine what you need right now is narrow suggestions moving forward, your post does holler "bioinformatics" at me.... might be interesting to take a peek.

More generally, he might benefit from wandering through descriptions of some major multidisciplinary areas - at lot of the major action in science is happening where traditional disciplines intersect. Computational biology is huge in neuroscience, genomics and pretty much everywhere. There's also incredibly cool combinations such as connecting physics and molecular biology to build a "lab on a chip" (OK, I'm dating myself with that example), biological batteries, mathematical epidemiology, biophysics, biomechanics, biomedical engineering - the possibilities are huge. I took a quick flip through all the things they now offer at my alma mater and found things called Geography and Aviation, and Global Business and Digital Arts; I can't tell you what they are, but they certainly get the brain heading in new directions!

One thing I did many (many) years ago, when course calendars were still paper books and I was disillusioned with my major, was to simply browse the university course listings in their entirety, and mark any course that appealed to me. The resulting patterns were hugely useful and rather illuminating. Perhaps it might help to take a wander through the program listings and courses of a few major STEM universities to see what most often catches his eye?

Not all engineering schools require admission to the major at the time of matriculation.

Some have gone to a professional-school model, where students APPLY to the major at the end of sophomore year, and until then, they are "pre-Eng" majors who take gen ed requirements for the institution as well as those engineering specific courses.

I'd recommend that he look at state flagships with a strong engineering program and a strong science research component.

That way he can explore those things that he is most likely to find engaging and interesting, and can shift by making small changes rather than a huge one like switching to a new institution.

Engineering and Science, unfortunately, have less overlap in coursework than is ideal from a student's perspective. So in that respect, asking both professional engineers and scientists why they chose one thing OVER the other... whether that was the right choice for them, what they find to be generally true of individuals in their own discipline on either side of that divide, etc. Job shadowing, but with a list of interview questions, I guess.

DD did that and quickly realized that while engineers work on interesting problems, she is emphatically NOT one of them, because her brain simply doesn't work that way. She's a scientist instead. I personally tend to think of this as a forest or trees orientation to problem solving. Scientists tend to see patterns in forest and sometimes get caught staring at one tree, and engineers tend to see patterns down in the trees and engage in breaking a trail through them without getting lost in the larger (or smaller) detail. Of course, each approach has distinct limitations and disadvantages. Scientists can take a year to plan HOW to build the trail that takes an engineer less than a month to construct, and engineers can miss the fact that they've just created ten miles of rough trail next to an existing paved one running parallel ten feet away, but there you go.

It's a matter of figuring out which mindset one is more suited to so that you find your tribe.


ETA: I love Michelle's advice above-- and concur strongly that interdisciplinary fields are especially well-suited to those at high cognitive ability since they value the idiosyncrasies and polymath tendencies that are so common in such individuals.

It doesn't sound like this young man would enjoy interviewing someone...just a guess.

Our state flagship has Engineering Open House each year. This event is huge and very informative, it is aimed at future engineering students. Maybe universities near you have the same event?
If not, there is another way to tell. All engineering majors (except maybe CS) require a lot of hands-on work. Is your son enjoying it? Does he repair everything in your house? Is he the first one who disassembles your broken vacuum?

Wow, there is a lot of good advice here.

I love the idea of looking for an Engineering Open House. I could probably take him this spring to one at my local research school even though it's not likely to be a school he applies to. Just have to hope it's not one of the weekends he will be away on a Band trip.

And while I don't think my son would enjoy interviewing someone. I should ask my father who is an electrical engineer to take my son into his office for a day or two and really show him what the he does. My son has been in the office but only for a short visit. My dad's office is a really hands on place, they design and build prototypes. And this will be with an adult he is comfortable with.

I am in CA and I'm basing my information on our state schools engineering programs. In CA state engineering schools (UC & the Cal Poly's) it is easier to transfer into an engineering program from community college than from within. I am glad to hear that not all schools are like this.

I do plan to take my son on some college visits this summer. It's an effort to keep him enthused about H.S. When I asked only a few weeks ago about universities he mostly listed a few of the elite top "20" schools none of which he is position to be competitive. I think it would help his moral to show him schools that would be more realistic yet end up looking interesting. I am trying to convince him to look at a few colleges in Oregon this summer. (Lewis & Clark, U. of Oregon and/or Oregon State)

Maybe. DD is extremely tight lipped with certain people (school counselors being top of that list) that she doesn't particularly trust and much more verbal with people she's interested in. It could be that connecting with a person in a particular field is the key to understanding what field might be a good fit.

Or it could be terribly awkward.

I'm in Canada and I went to school a long time ago but fwiw at that time it was easier to transfer from Engineering into Science and not lose time/credits while those transferring from Science into Engineering basically started over. I believe this was due to the fact that engineering had very few elective courses (I think I had 3 in 4 years) and so many courses had prerequisites while sciences had more flexibility and people that I knew were able to count the engineering course as an elective for example. Obviously ymmv but it might be something to research if he is still on the fence between those two worlds when it comes time to apply.

Universities up here each run their engineering programs differently. My first 2 years were generic engineering and then 3rd and 4th you picked your specialty (it was changed to 1.5 years after I went through). Other schools have you apply directly to a specific program for first year. Even at those schools much of first year is common so it is often possible to switch specialties (DH did this years ago and a friend's kid just did it last year). Some specialties have more overlap than others though.

This is still the case in most Engineering programs I know. Easier to drop "out" of Engineering into math/science programs that get in. And it depends on the program but many school still do a generic engineering for two years and then you choose a specialty. Depends on school.

As to my DS he doesn't KNOW if he wants Engineering at all. I just think it's would be a reasonable fit and would like him to explore while in H.S. He is in the Robotics Club at school. And it's OK if he is on the fence when he goes to apply for schools because he could apply to some Engineering programs and some not and delay the decision. But if he decides he isn't interested in it at all it would be useful to learn sooner than later. Particularly as to do well in an Engineering program you need a bit of passion for it.

Just looked the local "Open House" will be when DS is out of town. But I could think about sending to the Bay Area Maker Fair this spring with his grandfather. My parents would probably even happily buy him the plane ticket.

I just posted these resources in response to another thread, and thought they might be helpful here as well:
The books of Elizabeth Wissner Gross. Two for parents, one for kids but you may want to read it first
What High Schools Don't Tell You and Other Parents Don't Want You to Know,
What Colleges Don't Tell You, and Other Parents Don't Want You to Know,
Write Your College Essay in Less Than a Day.

These books help parents and kids see that there are many activities helpful to kids when looking forward to college, and many approaches to essay about them.

In addition to being an author, Elizabeth Wissner Gross is an educational strategist coaching for college admissions.

We receive a few university alumni magazines, our own and the kids of the previous residents at this address. They always have a couple of interesting articles on what alums are doing. The mag from a technical/engineering university has some especially interesting articles with work DS never even considered as a career, like the fellow who produces sound effects for video games, and the woman who works with color management in materials. They got us looking at almost anything and asking "who did that, and how?" (Every winter I tell my DS he should figure out the name of the field where he would come up with a decent road material that won't devolve into potholes.) Your high school's college counselor may have some such magazines.

And it's not just what he is interested in, but how he likes to work right now, that can point to his career. I always liked writing reports in school, but finally discovered technical writing halfway through grad school.

But perhaps the best way to figure out a career is to have a job. Not only do you learn about work you do or don't like, but you can also watch the people around you. Is DS working this summer?

We do have some of these magazines. Most come to my DH but I like reading them. Perhaps I should put them in DS eyesight.

Not looking for job this summer. He is probably going to 4 weeks of wilderness camp. We are trying to make a decision on that this week. First session would be training to be a CIT, and second session he would officially be a CIT so I guess it's sort-of a job. Seems a bit strange since he is such a 'shy' child but I hear he is a different kid at camp. After he comes home he won't have long before two weeks of band camp and the start of school. That only leaves a few odd weeks between things where we could visit a college or two but not time for much else.

Did talk to my father and DS and we are probably on for sending DS to the Maker Fair in the Bay Area this spring. Just have to make sure there aren't any conflicts in his schedule and get him a plane ticket while they are still inexpensive. That is just something fun but it should expose him to some interesting stuff.

I posted these resources on another thread and thought they might be helpful here also:

Have you seen the articles on the Davidson Database regarding early college?

There are also free downloadable guidebooks, including one on early college which comes in both a parent version and a student version.

I'm not trying to be offensive but why are you involved in a meeting with your son's guidance counselor? I always thought that was done between the Counselor and kid. I do understanding discussing classes and future with him before hand. We're not in the situation yet but if I showed up with my daughter with a meeting with a counselor she wouldn't talk either though she 's more than capable of talking to him/her.

I take it that you missed the entire zeitgeist of the last 15 years.

Not speaking for the OP, I'll just share that some high schools schedule an annual meeting with the student and at least one parent.

I don't understand why our school DOESN'T have such a meeting. We can talk about courses at home, but the counselor has added information, such as "that class requires a free period somewhere for something" or "did you know you can take that early bird or online?" Things that are not in the catalog. And the parent can remind student WHY they can't take it early bird: no transportation, other early responsibilities, etc. I would have liked a conference the year DS was invited to take an invitation-only course, and declined, but I didn't find out about any of it until the next winter.

You would think it would be possible for a general group with a counselor once a year that parents can attend. IMO a meeting with a parent, student, and counselor is not always the best idea.

I'm not sure what kind of school your kid is in, nicolesdad, but certainly around here parents meet with guidance counselors. I know we are lucky to have a good guidance department; they are a huge asset and their services are well-used. There are group informational meetings where general information and timelines are discussed, but parents are encouraged to email and ask to meet whenever questions of concerns arise. These meetings can occur separately from counselor meetings with the student, or all together, often a mix as everyone is busy.

The complexity of choosing courses as well as navigating the testing strategies (SAT subject testing, APs, which tests when, etc), discussing volunteer work choices, out of school opportunities, whatever an individual needs help with- not something most here would leave solely in the lap of their 14 year old kid. The school has them working on college admissions stuff from middle school on, but I think it is a rare student that handles this alone, and as NotherBen notes, lots of kids don't always relate all the relevant details.

(fwiw I've only read the OP, not the replies - sorry if I duplicate!)


This sounds so much like what my ds might do in a meeting with his counselor, yet he has a really strong sense of who he is and what he wants to study!


I still struggle with this but I agree, but not every meeting can be about helping our kids grow in communication skills, sometimes it's best just to keep the meeting moving when there's a different objective


As a former smart student myself, can I just say that I probably would have felt the same way? I really think these career inventories are meant more for kids who are completely at a loss re what they want to do and are perhaps at risk of not going to college. It's clear from what you've said that your ds is a math/science kid. It's not all that unusual at his age or even older to not know *exactly* which math/science career you might want to pursue.


It probably isn't, but it also isn't going to give any one magic answer to any student. Plus a capable student who is interested in math/science is going to be *able* to be a computer scientist, just as they are also *able* to be a biologist or *able* to be an engineer etc - the thing that usually helps students the most in realizing what they are interested in pursuing is either having an inspirational teacher, taking a higher level course that is fun, taking some kind of specifically oriented science camp/experience outside or inside school, or seeing how a certain job works in real life. A survey like this is just going to give generic ideas of what might work.


Which is a perfectly good reason to choose biology - if he takes biology over chem or physics next year, it's not going to put him out of an engineering career forever. It might be better to take biology with a good teacher and get, gasp, a good grade, have a good year, enjoy a teacher who is inspiring, and see how he feels about biology at the end of the year rather than suffer through a year of physics with a boring or difficult teacher. He'll still be able to get into engineering school if he's got the grades and the SAT scores etc. I'm not saying don't take the math/science etc that he needs - just saying that one science course vs another science course at this point isn't going to mean he's stuck.


I think maybe letting him take AP Biology might be one way to go about this - you both have the sense that he'd enjoy engineering/physical sciences. Let him take biology and see how he likes it. If he can take physics at the same time, that's also an idea you might suggest. I'm a physical scientist, and physics in high school was the course that reeled me in because it was where I really saw how science truly explains things. Granted, I didn't grow up in the world of Every Day Math (please ignore my EDM sarcasm lol).


Many don't, but many do. Our ds is headed into engineering, and he comes from a family of engineers. I realize we most likely don't live anywhere near each other, but I was very surprised how many more STEM/engineering courses were offered at schools which I wouldn't have expected to see them at back in the dark ages when I went to college. I'll also add - a significant portion of my graduating class in college (at a great STEM school) was made up of students who'd transferred in after 1-2 years at a different college because they'd entered college not really having a firm idea of what they wanted to major in. It's not all that unusual to not know what is going to inspire you when you're 18. I also have nieces and nephews (as well as friends) who weren't completely certain about career direction starting out in college who went to relatively generic state schools with all sorts of options for study, then as they realized what they were interested in as they went through college, focused on that and did well, they found amazing grad school opportunities in their area of interest.


In theory I agree with you, but I will be the first to admit I have a bit of a bias about this due to my own interests and career choices. I learned everything *I* need to know about computer science in my engineering school. OTOH, if your child is interested in computer science as a career choice (which I will admit I know really nothing about that's current), I'd suspect there must be schools that are better suited to computer science than others.

What classes is your ds thinking of for next year? What is his counselor recommending? What does he have on the horizon for this summer? Are there any opportunities for local internships or are there any local STEM programs for high school students? Local colleges/universities that offer summer programs for high school kids? My ds (who was probably born with engineering in his genes and has always shown a strong interest in math/science) has been most inspired by programs he's participated in run by our state university. One was a robotics camp, the other was a 3D modeling camp. The key for both that turned him on wasn't the actual camp subject matter, but for the first, he was working in a lab on campus for two weeks with grad students. It was like he'd landed "home" - he loved that experience and that got him very excited and comfortable about someday going to college. The 3D modelling class was, in his words, "BORING".. but there was a new engineering building under construction and the class toured it one afternoon - and heard all about the labs that would go in and heard about the types of things that would be studied there.

Hang in there - it's not easy to be a teen! Lots of expectations from counselors and parents as well as worries about moving on into the adult world all while you're trying to figure out who *you* are.

Best wishes,

polarbear

This is a ONCE in his H.S. career meeting. Sophomore year every student gets a 45 minute conference to plan for the rest of H.S. and to jump start college & after H.S. plans. Parents are invited and encouraged but not required. In junior year all the students get a small GROUP counseling meeting about college plans. (No parents) And fall of senior year all students who need one get a meeting, usually those who are applying to private schools.

Although because we have implemented a 504 this year we have met with her a few other times.

Do you have a maker's group in your area? (I'm guessing you must have?) Here it's something you can participate in on a regular basis - although it's also a mix of personalities and interests and educational background.

One thing I'd look at right away are the universities in your area - do any offer programs for high school students interested in STEM? Our local university has a mentoring program that isn't just summer camps, but goes throughout the year. We also took our ds to a college fair last year (even though he's not ready to apply), and we made a contact at our local university who was willing to help guide him through high school course choices even though he might not ever apply at the university - there really are a lot of people out there who want to encourage kids to study STEM at the university level

polarbear

I have no doubt your right and have only begun this process with my 7th grader. But what I took out of the OP was it wasn't necessarily what the student wanted but what the parent wanted. I've had co-workers calling high schools telling the school to make sure they find their kid so he could be told to go in for extra tutoring. My point is parents should be very involved in their children's education and future ,but sometimes, and I'm just saying this in general they become too involved.

Thanks polarbear. Yes I know that it doesn't really matter what science class he takes next year as long as its one of those three. I want him to take Physics because I think he is more likely to get a better grade in it. Biology involves more short answer writing and that is his weakness. But I'm letting him make this decision because I know it doesn't really matter as long as he enjoys it and gets a good grade. And I know one of the teachers is excellent. Right now AP Biology is his first choice and AP Physics 1 his second. The issue is I know he meets the qualifications for AP Physics (based on math grades) and it's less clear he has good enough grades to get in.

For next year we agreed on a slightly lighter scheduled that many of the top kids. AP Calculus, AP Science (Bio or Physics), English, Spanish 3, Band. Marching Band in the fall & in the spring either a ROP Engineering course or Jazz band, or a PE class.

As I posted last night. DS is probably going to do a CIT program at his wilderness camp. This leave out doing an internship or class this summer. He might still just to one session of the camp & if he does that I could find him a computer science/robotics camp. My son has done robotics camps and other science camps when he was younger.

As for computer science schools, I do have an inside track on what makes good computer science program. (I'm not going to say more than DH & I are both computer scientists.) There are many good CS programs at schools that don't have Engineering programs.

Check your PM box, Bluemagic.