I'm a bit, well, confused, I guess. Absolutely every single parent or grandparent of a toddler I have run into talks about how amazing their child is and how they know all their letters, numbers, colors, or whatever. Every. Single. One. It may be that because I keep my mouth shut and don't share anything, I end up hearing more. I have absolutely no desire to join ranks of declarations on the details of what my children can know or do, but I am honestly baffled, wondering why I am so constantly bombarded with stories of 'brilliance'. (I understand it on gifted boards, these are entirely a different circumstance.) I can't believe that we have a coming generation of brilliant people coming in. What can I be seeing?

When my older kids were toddlers, it didn't occur to me to go out of my way to teach them these things, but they learned anyways. I do know that now it is the norm to teach them younger.

I have been wondering whether the rest of you are seeing a similar trend, and what you think of it.

Sorry I haven't had time to make this query more coherent. I'm on the run, as usual, but this has been bothering me, especially after hearing the same thing from yet two more places, yesterday.

Well are the parents being honest LOL I have a freind who told me her 3 yr old knew the letters but what she meant was he knew how to sing the alphabet but he could not identity them.
I have a lot of friends with kids and there is only 1 of them who has a girl who really did know the letters at 2 like my DS7 did. She is 3 now. MY other DS3 is no way near ready to learn the letters and numbers.

Unless you see it for yourself I would not believe just believe it all.

I've never heard a parent talk like that, but perhaps that's because most of my friends aren't terribly mainstream.

I agree with tracey. I came to discover early on that everybody defines things differently and in the end it is apples to oranges. Such as first words. When my daughter started putting sounds together I didn't consider it first words, but discovered that some of my friends did. Their idea of an acceptable word was when a child would produce some sound repeatedly for a specific object. Is that really a word? It's part of the gray area and why making blanket statements should not be considered absolute until we understand the person's definition. As for the learning of the ABCs; I have discovered many claims to be just that: being able to recite the abc song but not really identify the individual letters.

Oh ... and the teaching of the toddlers. We are definitely seeing a pattern in today's society. Someone posted a link to another board on this one recently and I was appalled by what it represented. Clearly a push to teach and in a way that was clearly competitive. I wish I could find that link again because I was trying to show my husband. I was floored. The board represented everything I dislike about curriculum for the toddler.

I think it's also telling that these claims are all about things the child can recite in response to a stimulus (letters, colors, etc.). Probably many bright youngsters can memorize such things. I think our whole culture has gotten over-obsessed about these things as signs of being advanced.

What I don't hear from these types of parents are idiosyncratic stories about their children's abilities. For example, Hanni (25 months) has invented a game called "pretend go duck park." I do a lot of the story-telling, but last night she contributed the idea that we needed to leave the duck park because it was too loud, so we drove away in a truck (she has never been in a truck), and Hanni drove the truck and Mama sat in the back with the koala and the sun-bear. (Oh sorry, did I just slip into the brag thread? ) Anyway, my point is, you don't find that kind of stuff on the "Kindergarten-ready" check-lists.

Until I hear that kind of story, the kind that doesn't follow the popular script of what an advanced child does, I just smile and nod and make polite noises.

Absolutely Meg! IMHO,creative, imaginative play is a major sign of a gifted child; far more than memorization. My DD has always had such an imagination and sense of humor (another sign). I will never forget her 'magic' shows at 6 months: hiding a toy baby bottle under herself in her carseat and asking "Where is it?". And as we played along and pretended (most of the time, because sometimes she did in fact trick us.) to be stumped, she would happily produce the missing bottle and squeal with delight. Even more telling was when I wouldn't play it her way and produce the hidden bottle just to see her reaction. Never once did she get upset but accepted she hadn't hid it well enough and the next time did an even better job. This example more than knowing her ABCs, numbers, objects, etc is an eye opening moment for us. It really showed her cognitive abilities and how advanced she was at such an early age.

And as for seeing it on Kindergarten-ready checklists ... why would you? The checklists are for the essentials needed to enter. What you described is signs of above and beyond. And btw ... great brag.

hmmmm, I don't hear too many moms bragging in that way, but I do chuckle a little bit when they puff up and tell me how little Jimmy can count to ten (at 3 or 4)or something like that. For me, the potential giftedness has more to do with the ease of learning those sort of things with little repetition and the sudden startling leaps they can make alongside great imagination and a sense of humor. Sometimes I will let certain things slip that my DD4 does, but it will be in the context of something and almost an accident rather than a moment to brag, but sometimes a mom just wants to brag because they are proud of their kid, and that's understandable and excusable unless they are trying to do it in a strange, competitive way. There seem to be areas of the country that are very competitive and preschools are very academic,etc. Where I live, things are fairly laid back and while moms seem to want to get their children in ballet, soccer, music lessons at three, there doesn't seem to be a strong focus on academics this young, but that may just be among my friends and at my DD's preschool.

It has been really interesting reading your perspectives. I'm just so freaking tired of hearing litanies of toddler alphabetical and numerical accomplishments. I couldn't say how many might be telling the truth, as I am getting this from so many sides lately. Fortunately, none are interested in comparing by asking what my children can/could do. I'm so turned-off the sharing of anything.

I do love hearing stories of bright and creative things children do. The stories - the different ways of thinking about and looking at the world. These are the things that make more sense -and better yet, are far more interesting and enjoyable.

Exactly! That's sort of my point. These . . . what shall we call them, pseudo-gifted kids? . . . the stories about them never go "off script."

Now, you're story about hiding the bottle, or the story someone posted recently about the kid memorizing hazardous materials signs, you know those are real! They've got the kid's personality written all over them.

lol. I love the hazardous materials signs. Makes me chuckle.

I'm thinking that the checklists for a variety of things will need to be revamped if they are looking for anything more than basic readiness. Then again, most kindergarten readiness things that I have read seem more focussed on ability to behave and function in a group environment, than where the child is academically.

I am a parent who is blown away by my DD learning the alphabet and I mean identifying letters both capital and lower case etc. It seems that it is a bit young for me to know whether she will fit into the criteria of "gifted". I am also not sure that I can call any one else's astonishments of their childs abilities as "pseudo gifted". I am sad to think that any child's abilities whether seeming advanced or not could be labeled by another's in comparison with their own child. I also think of how many of us on this board have heard teachers tell us that our kids are something other than gifted and how much that hurts and causes confusion. I have already been seen as someone who is "pushing" my child not because any one watched me do it but because of what my child knows.

I have not heard other parents around my dd's age say that their child knows the ABC's etc. I have noticed when I fist started looking on the internet about this there was alot of people who wrote that their children knew the ABC's etc. I thought that was a bit strange to see so many but not to have met any. At this point I would like to meet another child (around my dd's age)who knows the ABC's.

I think that I use the criteria of the ABC's, counting, recognizing colours etc. because they are pretty quantifiable and commonly recognizable abilities. I guess it takes out some of the subjectivity. Memory is a part of intelligence.

I love your stories of the imaginary play.

Hi flower,

Just want to clarify, of course early learning of the alphabet etc. can be a sign of giftedness, especially if the child is leading the way. I went back and looked at your very first post, where you said "19 month old dd who suddenly showed us two months ago that she knew the alphabet" -- now THAT's gifted!!!

Also, I would never label a specific child "pseudo-gifted." Because, what do I know? I have no way of knowing if that child is eagerly soaking up knowledge, or if instead it's the parents pushing a narrow agenda.

BUT . . .

1) Pushy parents do exist. 2) Most young children, once they've started talking, can be taught to memorize some stuff, if it's important enough to the parents. 3) Our culture doesn't have a clue what giftedness really looks like. Hence, the phenomenon that Min originally posted about. I think the phenomenon is real, and I think "pseudo-gifted" is not a bad term for it.

I'm not sure you really meant this the way it sounds. Taken at face value, this amounts to a call to do away with the the entire concept of "gifted," because it involves comparison. We are all here on this board because we can't escape the fact that our kids are different.

Hi Flower,

I quoted you because I am one of the many here raising my hand to assure you that you have found parents with children just like yours. My 26 month old has also known all of his letters/colors/shapes since 15-18 months, phonics before 24, counts on his own to 20 and does 1-1 correspondence, and is starting to read sight words. My 5 year old did the same thing, and is now a YS. Like someone else pointed out, it's all part of the same rote memorization skills, but the "gifted" sign is that they memorize it so quickly. (For ex, mine doesn't watch tv, which several studies attribute to early learning of these concepts.) I share this with you not to brag, but to let you know that we're not alone.

I have also seen in our family that our HG children are extraordinarily imaginative. While rote memorization is often used to compare milestones, IMO, the true joy of having gifted children comes from this imagination.

As for all the general bragging we hear by so many, here is my thought. We have to remember that the average IQ is only 100, and the milestone books that moms cling to are geared towards that average. In the average social circle of a PG family, my guess is that many of the other children in that circle also come from families well above that average. We have to remember that the gifted line for schools includes 10-15% of the population. That number is skewed even more by demographics in well-educated areas(according to social research). When 30% of your playgroup thinks their children are gifted, by those numbers they may be right. However, when your children are profoundly gifted with IQs in the 160s and higher, it's a different situation. Because these children are so rare and people are so competitive, others question their situation.

That's why YS and forums like this are such a blessing!! IMO, it is both humbling and gratifying to find a group where our children are simply normal. I think we've all been wrongfully accused of either lying about their abilities, browbeating them, being braggarts, etc. Isn't it wonderful to come together and confirm for each other that they aren't aliens or oddities, but just sweet children whom God has bestowed with special gifts.

Thank you so much for sharing all of your experiences, too!

I think pseudo-gifted is a good term for some of these youngsters. I know that in the end, in the bigger picture it doesn't really matter (to me) whether Joe Blow or Jane Doe's kid is gifted or not. The competative parenting does. I admit, it does.

Along the lines of what gratefulmom mentioned, I really enjoy going to a place where bright is normal. Additionally, no one begins with the assumption that I've drilled facts into my kids, and I particularely enjoy the lack of competativeness of these boards. If I post something I don't need to justify or explain, or deal with the apparent contradictions that can seem to be there in a 2E child, and can deal more directly with whatever is on my mind.

Love it.

I completely agree with MegMeg and a lot of you here on this. Where I come from, I've had friends and acquaintances come up to rattle off a list of things their DC has done. Perhaps DS was a talking baby back then (he talked at 6 mths and walked at 13mths, so it seemed incongruous for a while). But they'd want to compare milestones and I was always stunned. Such detailed record keeping month by month of the number of pieces of jigsaw puzzles their kid did, or how many words the child can say at exactly which month. I realized later that, yup, these were checklists from the "What to Expect" series.

Don't get me wrong. It's fabulous of course. But what about the child's personality and his antics? What about the hilarious moments when his specialness shone through and outwitted the parent? That warmth that comes from recounting about the child (any child), rather than rattling a static list that has been checked. Like MegMeg says, I can't judge or assume to know that the other children are not gifted. But I've learnt my lesson well - when I meet parents who focus only on "The List" and not on the children themselves, I just steer clear.

On the other hand, the genuine love, affection and astonishment at your kids is obvious from so, so many of you here on the list. There IS a difference that I can't seem to put my finger on. So yes, I love to hear about how all your kids are doing. Like gratefulmom and Min says, it makes me realize this is a community that we completely belong to and can come to for support.

For once, we belong!

I don't think anyone meant the question of 'the list' to offend anybody on this board and if you were offended I just want to apologize. JMHO but yes rote memorization at an early age is a 'possible' sign of gifted. It really comes down to the wait and see game and also if the child in question learned so in less repetition than the norm. I could rattle off the list of what my DD accomplished at an early age, such as ABCs by 9 months; counting before 1 yr, etc and it goes towards justifying our beliefs that she is gifted, absolutely. But as she got older we noticed the advanced cognitive development which is huge for IQ and her imagination and humor, along with many many more. The bottom line (for me) is all these signs are small pieces to the puzzle and most of the time 'the list' is just the beginning.

Hi, first thanks for the gentle responses. I wrote the note when I could not sleep last night so was not as coherent as I would like to be. In regards to the comparison thing I was referring specifically to these youngsters that are say 18 months old. I'm still uncomfortable with the term Pseudo gifted. I do agree that there are pushy parents but according to the GDC parents who believe their kids are gifted test usually gifted or pretty darn close. I found that to be interesting. I just wonder if I had not had as much information as I do have if I had been reading the posts as a what do you call them, "lurkers" I may have been chased away. I have never been a member of a board like this and do appreciate the people out there saying they have kids who know the ABC's. I am so glad you are out there but I wish I could have a person who I could sit down and have tea with. So here is to a cyber tea play date with you all out there where the kids could play with letters or whatever together.

People love their kids and are proud of them. That's it. What's the big deal? Just say "That's great!" Like a good kind person.

lex, of course that's the right thing to do. It just gets annoying when pushy parents constantly want to play the comparison game. I think it's really a side effect of the ways in which the general public is becoming aware of early childhood development and educational issues, with additional feedback from the internet. I detect traces of it here sometimes. In the end it is usually a bit sad at worst, since it usually shows a parent that's simply angst-ridden more than super-competitive, and I agree that kindness is what's generally called for.

I took my DS2/3 and DS4 to the park yesterday and had a long conversation with a dad that was there with his 3.5 year old son. He was super nice, and while he got a little boastful when recounting his war stories from Iraq (I was a good listener and don't fault him), he got a sad look on his face when talking about his son's language ability, and told me he was worried that his son was behind. I am pretty sure that this happened because my son was there telling him all about the projects he's been doing lately, recounting the full plot of Iron Man 2 with all plot twists and trivia, etc. I hope I did a good job of reassuring him. It was not the first time that I've experienced the other side of the phenomenon, and each time helps prepare me for the more trying times, to remember to be humble and nice. Most parents just aren't bad people-- they're stressed and want constant feedback about where their little one is relative to everyone else.

flower, that's interesting. I wonder if the phenomenon you describe is an effect or a cause. I suspect at least a bit of the latter, as parents who care about development may tend to train or at least encourage their children into increased achievement scores.

Of course that is the thing to do. I haven't noticed any suggestion here of anyone dong otherwise. That doesn't mean I am neither surprised with the focus on lists of skills rather than on the whole child, nor also suprised at the shift in expectations of young children.

I have the opposite side of the story.

Whenever DS18mo goes out, we give him a bottle with water because his sippy cup doesn�t fit a regular cupholder. Every once in a while, people ask us why DS is still using a bottle and not a sippy cup. I just smile and change topic.

It�s funny how people have todo list for a child as well.

I agree with this one and I think you mean the link I posted while ago. You can probably find it from my old posts But I think it is fairly common for a 2 year old know their alphabets as there are so many toys & books with them. I also tend to socialize with parents having similar professional background which forms a bias towards what seems normal or not.

At least for us DD learning to route count, alphabets, numbers, shapes etc so young was the first time we as her parents realized that maybe she might be more advanced than we thought. These kind of things are easily recognized. You need to see and interact with lot of kids to be able to know if your child's humor or play is normal age level or not. Much easier for parents to notice that their 18mo old knows alphabets and counts than that the child has a higher level imaginary play than other 18mo olds. Only thing I still notice from the level of play is that some other 2-3 year olds seem so "babyish" compared to DD. She is turing 3 and we are used to her academic skills so I'm not sure how gifted DD is as it is much harder to make comparisons after you are way past the alphabet stage (and as I read post here I'm thinking that reading is normal for this age group too).

I am like most people here. I have a 23 month-old who has been able to identify his capital letters and numbers 0-9 since before 12 months of age. I have had close friends look at me like I'm doing the child a disservice by providing his with the tools to teach himself things like this and it still makes me angry! All I did was buy the foam alphabet mat for him to play on to get him off the hardwood floor and I'm being looked at as some kind of overbearing, 'teacher' parent! So many of the toys and games that are available for kids under 18 months (and over that age, too, of course) have the numbers and letters there and if my son picks up on it immediately, how is that my 'fault'??
He is a little on the shy side and hates loud noises and crowds and that, together with the fact that he's a quick learner, makes it seem like I'm sheltering him so we can stay at home and I can teach him. It's crazy! It also frustrates me that that same friend can so happily tell me that her child can swim on her own, but if I mention that my son can spell his name, I'm looked at like I'm forcing him to learn it! Urghhh! Sorry for the venting, but that frustrates me to no end!
I can see why people think parents who have kids like this might think that we're forcing them to learn and I know how easy it can be to compare kids, but come on! I feel like my child has accomplished so much and there are so few people that I can share it with.

There's nothing wrong with being a teacher-parent, as long as it's done well. Of course it's not your fault if your son is quick at learning new things!

Maybe because half of the daytime cartoons are educational and teach letters and numbers. �Before it was just sesame street and the electric company and you had to go out of your way for educational programming. �Now if you just leave the cartoons on all day they'll teach them letters, shapes, sequencing, and reading, and introduce Spanish and Chinese. �LoL. �It is kind of amazing to see a kid learning things you're not teaching them. �Maybe they are impressed. �And if the kid gets on the computer, forget it. �
Oh and I'm so guilty I do just tell stories about my kid all the time. �But I spend all day here and my whole life revolves around him at this time so that's all the stories I have to tell at the moment. �Yeah, I don't get out much. �And never without the kid. �Thankfully my friends and family understands and are interested.