As I know, many gifted kids have sth that they are "obsessive" with, what is your kids obessive with and how intense is it?

My DS3 is obsessive with numbesr and shapes, he write numbers all day long and everything he talks is related to number, for example,

1. When we have a walk, he always point to the trees and ask me how many leaves of each tree.

2. When he play with lego house, he put all the lego figures asides, and the numbers are bathing, cooking, sleeping, eating, driving, swinging, sliding, etc. One day when I was cooking, I heard what he said, " 9 is sleeping, 7 is driving, he is going to supermarket to buy avocado for 20 to eat, 100 is cooking #51 rices for 30 to eat..." so after a while, i went out and said to him, "30 and 51 already finished their dinner and it is time for xxx (lego figures) to have dinner!" (i am trying to ask him to play with the figures rather than number) but here is his answer "mom, 51 is the rice..." +_+!!!

3. He write his number all days long, design dot-to-dot by himself and ask me to play with (he draws them randomly), sometimes when he was overwhelm, it seems that he write numbers to calm down himself.
Draw digital clock with Date and Temperature.

4. Other than numbers, he likes to play color code and lego, especially loves reading lego manual, as there are lots of numbers and x1, x2.

Actually why I ask this questions is that he went through some developmental evaluations, psychologist said that they cannot diagnosed him of autism as he is good in social interactions with adults, but they cannot rude it out either, as he is not speaking english yet, so they don know how he use of language, and they also worry that his interactions are all related to numbers. In additions, he does fall to the "restricted behavior" criteria of autism.

After going to preschool for 2 weeks, his teacher tell me that they try hard to shift his activities to sth else not maths, but fail.

So I am wondering how intense is the obsessive interested of other kids, will your LO refuse to learn other stuff other than their interest?

My son does like to learn reading at home, but doesn't interest to learn it in school.

Thanks.

I disagree with this description. The gifted/autistic (one can be both) can be highly creative in the manipulation of information, while still showing restricted interests.

That the OP's DS won't engage with the preschool's activities may be a red flag for autism. I'd start right away trying to increase flexibility by using the area of interest as a springboard into other activities.

Given that there are many articles and lists of developmental milestones and many lists of common characteristics for autism, and not all lists are consistent, some things which stood out in your post and would tend not to indicate autism include:
1. pointing to the trees (non-verbal communication supportive of verbal communication)
2. imaginative play
3. asking you to play with him (using intense interests as social currency)
Two links which may be of interest: postive traits of autism, recognizing ASD.

Have you seen the SENG youtube video on The Misdiagnosis of Gifted Children? There is also a related book which you may be familiar with, on Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnoses.

You may wish to become familiar now with some of the support resources which may play a future role with advocacy for your child, such as the website wrightslaw, the book From Emotions to Advocacy, and National Center for Learning Disabilities (NCLD).

What language(s) does he speak? Being an English language learner might partially explain his interest in learning reading at home but not at school. At three years old, what type of reading instruction is given at school?

I can't say that I've observed this in either one of my kids. DS has various "fascinations" and tends to ramble on. So he might be talking about a certain video game and then a couple minutes later he will be talking about space stations. Then later on, it might be the video game again. But he doesn't seem "obsessed" in the way that you're talking. DD will get wrapped up in something and seem to hyperfocus while she's doing it, but then not think about it at all when she's not doing it. I think what you're describing might be normal if it's just a short phase, and he is interested in other things as well...for instance he is currently learning the numbers and highly interested, and the topic will come up several times per day. But then he will quickly move onto a different interest. However when you say he will write numbers all day and it seems to calm him down...that seems like a huge red flag. Have you looked into OCD?

I am going to ditto DeeDee.

My 6 year old has ASD, diagnosed aspie before DSM 5 came out.

You need to work on developmentally appropriate attending to tasks. Some sort of ABA or intensive behaviour program as soon as possible. No matter if you have a ASD diagnosis or not.

Are you in the states? If so did you go through Early steps yet?
You say he interacts with adults, mine did to. Does he make age appropriate eye contact? Does he respond to his name when called?
Does he get upset if you disturb his interests? Does he have age appropriate conversations in the language that he does speak with adults? Or is it all about his interests?


If the right amount of behaviour therapy can get him to a point of attending to tasks, speaking and listening at an appropriate level, there is a chance that his interests could develop into a gifted type level. Kids with ASD or traits of ASD who turn out to be gifted need to be taught, step by step how to sit down, make eye contact at some level, attend to a teachers requests, be able to show age appropriate work by reading, writing, answering questions.

I have full journals of psychics type work and equations from when my son was 4-5 years old. None of it helps teachers teach him what he needs to learn at school. How to get along with kids and adults. How not to be afraid of toilets flushing, how not to be upset that I turned left and not right in the car because he already mapped out a route in his head when I said we where going to the mall, something he did between ages of 3-4.
It can all be used as a way into the mind, social stories as he reads, why it is great to know numbers, but we also have to sit down at circle time, do what the teacher asks, share, etc.

I recently shared his journals, at this point they are helpful for a glimpse into how his mind works. He is only 6. So we have come a long way!

Do the numbers your son describes stay constant? For example, is 51 *always* rice? Is 100 always a boy & 17 a girl? Do the numbers have "personalities"?

If not, then it could be an ASD-type behavior, an OCD behavior, or even just a particularly strong gifted quirk. It's hard to tell, but good that your pedi is aware & is watching to see how he develops.

If the numbers are personified & those "personalities" remain consistent, then there is only one place I have heard of that - a documentary on a little girl named Joni Schofield, who has childhood-onset schizophrenia. Please do NOT let that alarm you - I have no reason to suspect that diagnosis for your son & am certainly no expert. It just popped into my mind as I read your description & I wanted to point it out in case it is an area of interest. The phenomenon is described below:

"One of the primary symptoms of schizophrenia is the perception and personalization of connections and patterns that do not exist in reality. People tend to make sense of reality and perceive patterns through filters, one of which is numbers. They're the building blocks of pattern recognition and they are also ubiquitous. It's pretty easy to see patterns in numbers that are not there, even if your brain does not have a predisposition towards doing so."

The entire year our DS was 2 was exactly like this, but first it was letters until he mastered them, then is was anatomy, space, etc. He started numbers at 3 and counts everything right now. Just tonight, he typed out the alphabet in order and then in patterns on the laptop before bed and then counted the letters for fun, he said.
Letters became characters to him. He actually drew them as cartoons and gave them personalities and names, they had families, the upper case being parents and the lower case being children, of course.
He explored letters beyond anything I could imagine, he would sort them by the angles of their lines toward 3 when there was nothing left to explore. When he was 18 months to 2.5, I was concerned that he might be on the spectrum, but it was ruled out (several times). He's slowing down on obsessive sessions or they just seem less intense. But, he is very emotionally intense, still doesn't like transitions and is calmed by his academic interests. We talk about it now and he is starting to understand and be able to talk through transitions.
All that being said, continue to talk to the doctor about your concerns. In our case, the doctor and child psychiatrist both said that he had so many traits that would easily sound like ASD but he is very social and wants to share his experiences with others. He wants to talk WITH everyone about his interests not at them, he draws people in and assumes everyone is as excited about these things as he is.

My experience with my son is different. He seems to absorb academic information by osmosis but, despite an advanced self-taught understanding of explicit literacy and numeracy, these have never been his passion. Case in point: he is a decently fluent speller and decoder--has been for over a year--but is not motivated to read independently yet.

Where I see his focus linger is on more global, applied activities, like learning about the components in a combustion engine--and building a working model-- or pretending to take his imaginary puppy on a cave spelunking expedition and explaining the geology of caves. The persistence of topics like construction, vehicles, and tools--which emerged as favourite interests around 8 months-- is undeniable. His interest in the topics has broadened and become much more nuanced.

I think that there is a lot of disagreement about what is ASD and what is not. In my son's case, his preschool teacher raised red flags but the psychologist said his quirks were related to being gifted but immature. He was recently reassessed at age 8 by a neuropsych who is affiliated with the local autism center and she said he was on the spectrum. He has always had friends, he can do imaginative play, he makes eye contact, he tells jokes, etc., but he also has had obsessions with various topics for months (although in a deep way), has sensory issues, he lined up toys as a toddler, he hand flaps when anxious, and is quirky in other ways. If I had to do it again, I probably would have pursued social skills therapy after the first assessment regardless of the lack of diagnosis. If your gut feeling is that he has some issues, I'd try to address the problems sooner than later. We chose to wait and see which probably made things more difficult for all of us in the long run. I don't think that it would have hurt him to have entered a program earlier to learn how to self-regulate emotions better, to work on teamwork skills, etc., even without an ASD diagnosis.

I also want to add that some of my son's ASD characteristics make him a more interesting person. He is much more passionate about things than his sibs. When he wants to learn about something, he goes full force. We have some very interesting conversations because he thinks in a very unconventional way. His PG sister does not operate the same way, so it's not just because he has a high IQ and is a DYS. I just want to say this because I feel like a lot of people are afraid of ASD, but there are a lot of significant figures in history with ASD. I can see that some of his traits will help him out in the long-term if they are nurtured appropriately.

My DD was intensely obsessed with math. It was insanity.

She also didn't bond with classmates until she started her current preschool at age 3.8 but she has always loved participating in group activities, especially circle time and lunch. She is now a bit of a queen bee and social butterfly at school. If she were still ignoring her classmates at age 4, I'd be rather worried.

Your DS is still very young but if you are concerned, I'd consider appropriate interventions.

Thank you so much! You all are very informative!

We are currently waiting for another evaluation for him and see if he can received any ABA for his restricted interest and social skill, hope he will be qualify.

He speak cantonese at home, but the teacher said thathe understand what they said n follow directions, sometimes he did answer their questions (related to number)

I forget to mention that he also have sensory processing disorder. He is hypersensitive to light, sound, touch, but he did improve a lot in this 2 yrs in his snse of touch n light, but still very seneitive to noise. It may be one reason that affect his social skill too.

Yup, he does have good eye contact with ppl, n reponse to his name, have normal conversation, he tell jokes, his main problem is restricted interest, but he does flap hands when frustrasted, he doesnt line up toys but he did make many symmetrical patterns, oh actually, he is the same as what Flyingmouse describe!

Flyingmouse, would you mind sharing some experience with me, e.g. what difficulties did ur son face before? He sound likes doing good with friends n is a very interesting person.

Thanks.

Cynthialcy, my DD lined up everything she could get her hands on including toys AND candy. When she was more interested in making patterns with M & M than she was eating them, I was rather worried. She also used to love staring at our washing machine and loved spinning toys.

She also had extreme sensitivities to noise and serious sleep issues.

I was never concerned about ASD though despite the"red flags."

It's not that she is now a perfect child who is well-behaved all the time but she certainly would rather eat candy than line them up these days. So for her, the red flags were developmental quirks.

I personally feel that appropriate therapy with an competent therapist won't do much harm and can only help. I hope your DS gets the help he needs.

Thanks Mana, my son doesn't do any pattern now too, but he still loves star at spinning objects, and he can detect any spinning stuff in the environment. Somehow we believed that his nerves wiring is really so different from us :P

My son does have some friends he like to play with, two are boys (he is a bit scare of girl i think) and both of them speak cantonese, language may be a problem for his social interaction in sch.

Actually when i Google search for obsessive interest, ASD and Giftedness pop up, and this is the first time I think that my son may be ASD or gifted (or both or none :P) In my culture (and in my childhood) we seldom heard about giftedness, so i didn't know anything about it. (I only thought that gifted = Newton/Einstein, etc) Somehow it is really confused for me for my son's intense interest, should I stop him learning his math? or should I follow his lead?

Yup, we are looking for a therapy for him too. ^^

I just have to mention that my siblings and I used to love sitting in front of the front-load washing machine "watching TV" together. (We had an actual TV, but this was probably more stimulating!)

But seriously, I would echo the thought that therapy with a skilled practitioner won't hurt, and might help. If your insurance covers it, it might be worth investigating.

We had a kid like this. We chose to let him learn math, but we also constantly worked to expand his horizons. He was scared of the woods; we kept at it and now he regularly goes camping. He hates sports and was terrible at them; we worked on those skills and he eventually played football with other boys at recess.

Anything that limited his world, we worked on. This included play skills that let him participate with other kids, and following rules or instructions given by other adults.

aeh, you are so fun, u make me think of my childhood, i like to see pinwheels when i was a kid too :P

Thanks for all your opinions, i will go for a ABA for my son for sure ^^

DeeDee, my son also doesn't like to run (and he doesn't know how to jump yet at 3), I try so hard to work on those skill too, he likes soccer and swimming, thinking to let him join some sport team too.

Beautiful statement!

My DD has been dx with ASD, ADHD, and is PG. She's currently obsessed with cats, but not to the point where she doesn't learn or do other things. She actually really likes to do math and she could spend hours laying around reading books. Of course, if the book happens to have cats in it, or if she can convince someone to give her a Hello Kitty sticker on her math sheets, so much the better.

At age 3 she was actually really into cars. That year she pretended she was a little white car, and whenever we went anywhere she always wanted me to tell her what the other cars on the road where (make and model) and she eventually learned to identify a number of them herself. (She could also read by this age so sometimes she just read what was printed on them, of course.) She also liked to play pretend with her dollhouse, read, do math, dot-to-dots, etc. The next 2ish years she was really into ducks, then around 1st grade she landed on cats.

At age 5 she was evaluated but not dx with ASD because she rated quite decently on some measures used but they said she might be in the future, and she was, at age 8.

She also has especially poor eye contact, lots of sensory processing stuff, poor muscle tone, and is very inflexible, so lots of other stuff going on besides the cat obsession.

Shelli, Sorry that I skip your message when reading the reply (I have to go for eye check..=_=), it is interesting to bring out about "schizophrenia", somehow we did feel like he has some hallucination. It is really hard to tell as at this age, kids have lots of imaginations. I will check it out, thanks a lot.

Hi Aufilia, thanks for sharing, it sounds like my son. He does do sth else at home (e.g. he likes to learn phonics, like to play balls, and like to listen to musics), but in a new environment, he only does his maths, i think he feel safe about it. He is a very anxious kid. Too bad to know that your DD dx with ASD in age 8 but not at age 5, my son has to do evaluation every years to check if he is in the spectrum of ASD or not. Somehow i really hope that if one day he does dx with ASD, please dx it as early as possible such that he can have free therapy as early as possible. =_=

Aufilia, I sent you a pm.

I have thought of this post many times since it started a few weeks ago. My DS 3.5 has a new obsession: writing/making books/spelling. It's ALL DAY. He does this for an hour before preschool, then at preschool, then for hours at home. Just spelling, spelling, spelling, writing and making these little books. It's been about 5 days now. And when he's not sitting down doing the writing, he's spelling outloud. I have a feeling that when he feels this is mastered, it will settle down.

GGG, my son going to preschool for almost a month and in this month, what he do the most is writing too!!! Before he went to preschool, he keep writing number, and now he write numbers and letters (and some simple words that he can spell e.g. ten, nine, one), he also write some "words" that make up by his own and pretend saying english. I feel like his brain is overwhelm after attending the school, and he seems processing the English right now...
He used to play board games, lego, smart games with me, but now he refuse to play them all, just writing.... =_=

Val,

My DD has insisted that numbers have personalities so the above triggered a flurry of frantic googling LOL

It turns out that it isn't always associated with mental illness and is relatively common.

OLP link on wikipedia

More info on synesthesia here

Even more here

The poor girl Jani Schofield does experience OLP but it is also accompanied by a litany of other symptoms too; self harm, an entire imaginary place, Calinini, where the characters hurt her and tell her to hurt others etc:-

A piece on Jani Schofield

I am not a clinician so your YMMV, just a parent trying to do this best for his DD and to stay informed :-)

I don't know how I missed the schizophrenia post...

...but, no, I wouldn't worry about that based only on the descriptions we've heard so far. Quite a few math-minded children perceive numbers as having other qualities. Synesthesia is not particularly unusual (I think I've mentioned that one of my siblings, now a math professor, associates them with colors).

I also would tend to downgrade ASD concerns based on the shifting of his obsessions, and how they correspond with new skill areas. Most children--gifted and otherwise--have periods of focus on mastery of a skill, or working through a developmental problem. It may be more pronounced in GT kids.

Our very clearly ASD DS12 has had shifting obsessions over the years, most of them academic. Sometimes they last a year, in which he quickly masters an enormous body of material at a high level, then he goes on to the next one.

What's distinctive about the ASD obsessiveness (again IME) is that it inhibits other kinds of learning and flexibility. That is, the child needs to keep talking about surface temperatures of planets when other kids are trying to engage him in play, or the teacher is saying it's time to clean up.

If the obsession is interfering with learning other things, with appropriate social interaction, or with the kind of flexibility that's needed to function in a variety of environments, that's where I would call it a problem rather than a gifted quirk.

YMMV, of course.
DeeDee

Oh yes, my DD, about whom I have no concerns re schizophrenia, says numbers have feelings (for example, 7 is a happy yellow number, IIRC, and 8 is green and jealous). She is very obviously synesthetic. It's common to have these associations in synesthesia.

Also, yes, both of my children have had strong interests but have never had a real tendency at all to "overtalk" them to others or to refuse to shift from them to other topics. In fact, DD is reticent to discuss her birding interest with other kids because she is a bit worried it could be perceived as odd.

Good point. The social communication impairments are the critical quality for ASD. Focal interests are not the same as restricted interests.

And "interfering" is also the key test that I personally think should be used for whether something is a problem.

Did you know, there is a friendship and social skills book for kiddos, Speak Up and Get Along! which is written with each chapter cleverly related to the strengths and characteristics of different birds (with a bit of creative license).

madeinuk, Thanks for sharing, it is the first time i heard about "synaesthesia"

After reading all of your reply, i finally understand that why the psychologist said that she can't rule out ASD for my son and have to have him evaluate every year. Before age 3 it is really hard to see how "social" they are, and most of them may only like to talk about sth that they are interested in. I will keep in eye on his social development and try to help him in this area as much as possible. Thanks all ^^

my dd is not like that at all, although she'll have an activity she'll want to do ad nauseum, at the moment its writing cards, this has been going on for months..... Mummy I need to make a card for someone - every day.

Before that it was wrapping presents which lasted about a year. I think these are more like schemas though. At any rate I'm sure she gets something out of it.

I think the obsessions are like that too. Not only are they attempting to master a particular idea but they are using the idea to learn about other things which might not be easily related. eg the number 5 can be a gateway can be a gateway for exteneding knowledge on time, space, shape, relationships etc. I think sometimes these kids just have awesome ways of connecting ideas and are getting soooo much more out of things than we know. just an idea...