Hi everyone,

I've been lurking here for a while, but this is my first post. I have one child, a boy who recently turned three.

First, I don't know if he's gifted or not. It seems to me that he has a lot of traits that also show up in kids who have been identified as gifted, but of course I'm just a layperson - and obviously everyone thinks their kid is an amazing genius. So I try to be cautious about any assumptions I have about him. But I am feeling pretty wrung out and could use some insight from those who've been there.

My son is a sweet, funny boy who I also find pretty hard to cope with at times. I SAH with him. (I used to work at home, but recently quit. I just couldn't make it work any longer. Because of everything below.) He is just a very high-intensity person is so many ways:

*He needs constant input. He wants to talk to you all the time. And it isn't smalltalk, it's his weird theories, things he wants real attention paid to, questions he wants answered, etc.

*He can't really entertain himself. That is, he can - especially with sensory play - but he always invents a lot of interesting/destructive things to do if he isn't supervised. So he isn't really a kid who can be given a bunch of playdough and a work surface and then left alone. (Because of how you will come back to find that all your books now have sheets of playdough inside of them or something like that.)

*He's increasingly interested in being social, playing with friends, etc., but his language use outstrips his social development by quite a lot. So it seems to me that some of the time he is baffled by children his age, and other times he just doesn't know how to play with them. But he loves to play with adults. A lot of his play with adults revolves around talking-while-doing (which I assume is the appeal of grownup play partners?) - narrating the play, role-playing, and so on.

*I take him outside as much as I can, but he is prone to daring/horrifying feats, and he's pretty interested in leaving to go look at this interesting truck he just found. So outside is great, but like everything, requires fairly close supervision. (And we live in a dense urban area, so there are no backyards, and there's lots of traffic, etc.)

*He is simultaneously kind of emotionally restrained (people who don't know him well often describe him as "laid-back") and also explosive and intense within the family sphere.

*He is extremely persistent.

*He is very driven to do the things he's interested in. I don't know how else to describe this. If he wants to do something (take out the window screen, say) nothing my husband and I say or do will deter him.

*He is quite cautious in new spaces, and sensitive to sensory input. (And emotionally sensitive in general.) So my attempts to take him to things like group classes haven't really worked out.

*I think my husband and I often get tricked by our son's use of language. I notice how often we talk to him as though he were a reasonable adult (when really he's a toddler with a thesaurus implant). I think this often leads us to expect more of him, behaviorally, than is realistic for his stage of development. I'm interested in changing this dynamic, but I don't know how.

Like I said, I feel pretty lost. I am semi-introverted, and I need to spend quite a bit of time being quiet and inside my own mind to feel sane. But my son wants/needs constant contact, constant talk about how clouds work, and this is a special rescue truck he made out of cheese, and so on and so forth. He is funny and great and I love him, but I also find him so, so exhausting.

I feel like he is just not very much like the other kids his age we know, and the parents we know don't seem to be dealing with issues quite like this. But then I second-guess myself and think "Maybe every kid is exactly like this and I am just weak" (which is totally possible. I may be grasping at straws!)

Anyway, I am very interested in any reading recommendations, etc. I've been reading Raising Your Spirited Child, but find it only so-so in terms of helpfulness. Are there any books you can recommend specifically for parents of very young children of this type?

Thanks so much!

Whooooooo-boy.

I can definitely relate. My DD(now13) was very much like this.

She talked-talked-talked-talked CONSTANTLY if she wasn't fixated on doing something else.

And just for comparison, she took scissors to the cat in an effort to make a working Polyjuice Potion when she was four.

Similarly, it was very difficult to remember that she was only {chronological age} because she reasoned and talked SO. MUCH. LIKE. AN. ADULT.

(Still fighting that battle, by the way)

My suggestions to you, from one introvert to another?

* establish boundaries and QUIET TIME daily. If you're going to survive and nurture your child, you must make your own sensory/emotional needs a priority.

* we went with "not-nap" time, during which DD was allowed to sit in her bed with a stuffed animal, books, etc. She listened to music or a book on tape. But "the rule" was that she stayed in that bed. Sometimes she napped, and sometimes not. This may not work for a child who is not a rule-follower. Mine was. Frankly, SHE needed the down time, too.

* NO-- not everyone else has a child like this. Not even close. Holy cow, my friends seriously could not believe the things that my DD did when she was two and three. She was angelic-- except when one of us crossed her, and then... Even my husband could hardly believe some of it.

* If you have another parent in the home? Make time immediately upon that person's return so that you can decompress somewhere quiet. I found that exercise with music on was an excellent way to de-stress.

* Don't let your child talk to you while you're doing something that requires your (true) full attention. Find a way to defer chatter that your child will agree to abide by-- you're going to need it. You need to enforce this now-- because if you don't, you'll rip the side mirror off of your brand-new minivan while you're backing out of a parking garage and trying to avoid the children who may/may not be chasing a ball that they are bouncing behind your vehicle. Hypothetically, I mean.


* He may not be an extrovert so much as if he's not yet reading for himself, he's using YOU as his source of information about all the things he's interested in. That's fine-- but it is exhausting beyond words. I can't tell you what a relief it was when my 4yo finally learned to read on her own. Suddenly I could at least some of the time have the kind of peace that I had been desperate for!!

My first and third children are various combinations of this, my first was harder in many ways (not necessarily do with being first, she has Aspergers), but my 3rd... Oy... She's an amazing astonishing little person but she does.not.stop.talking (including in her sleep some days)... And for the most part she's not asking deep quetions about how things work but instead about how people think and feel, which I actually find harder a lot of the time... "Why is the sky blue?" can be easier than "Are you feeling Angry now?"

HK's advice is very sound. And no, not everyone's kids are like this.... The number of times recently I have had friends with kids a bit younger say "WOW what a difference x more months make!" And I really don't know how to respond to that because the truth is "Well no actually, she was not that different from this x months ago..." Yes she is growing and changing all the time, but the non stop talking has been going on a LONG time now.

Mine's three-almost four, and I just started a "hyperspeed" thread.

Suffice it to say, this sounds... familial (ok, I meant to say familiar, but that particular typo is too good to fix)

If I drove I would fear for my side mirrors.

But I can't get quiet time to stick.

I can't really get "quiet until we're on the train" to stick, either.

I've been trying a REALLY long time.

HOW HOW HOW HOW HOW?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!

-Mich

I have a 3 yo dd and I could have written most of your post. Unsupervised, she is a hurricane. All our walls have crayons, markers and paint jobs. Our floors have stickers that won't peel easily. She spent an entire afternoon peeling the wallpaper in her room when I thought she was taking a nap. We hardly have any furniture as she devised a way to use any and each piece dangerously. Even when we are supervising her and ask her to stop, she either bombards you with a million why nots or sweet talks you or shows anger. The only thing that has helped me keep my sanity is going to work everyday outside the house. She goes to preschool in the am and we have a nanny watch her in the pm. She behaves very differently with them and actually follows their rules. I joke that I go to work to relax. Weekends, I am a dead zombie by Sunday night.:) I am really hoping it would get better as she becomes older. You have my sympathy.

Lovemydd, my 2nd child was incredibly difficult to keep safe (and everything else safe from her) from 6m - 2.5yrs, maybe even 3yrs. Work would totally have been a holiday. She did improve markedly with her approach to investigating the world between 2.5-3yrs. Funnily enough she was less exhausting to me because although she required constant supervision she didn't talk quite as incessantly as #1 and #3, she talked precociously, she just didn't require (or provide) a running commentary on every moment of every day. She's my introvert...

The problem is mine talks incessantly. It is when she is quiet and out of sight that I worry the most as I know she is up to some mischief. Lol!

It's funny, my 3rd child, on the few occasions she is silent and out of sight, is generally being exceptionally well behaved. She has common sense beyond her years. Just an extreme need to communicate about all things ALL the time. #2 though, was miss re-arrange the furniture to make a ladder, within moments of entering a new space. I lost track of the "Wow, no kid's ever done/found THAT before!" comments... Silence was always dangerous with her.

I'm sorry I have no advice, just empathy. I'm dealing with similar issues with my daughter (2y9mo). (sigh)

See, this is why I *GO* to work...... I have three kids who are HG or EG. If I didn't' get time out I would be a very cranky person indeed.
In fact this came up today, my boss, said TGIF (Thank God it's Friday, does that work in American english?) and I said, well weekends are not less work than work for me, really.
My kids don't' need much sleep. Two of them talk all the time.
My youngest was just early entered to school two weeks ago after testing at 99.9th. She is not tired at all and she has after school activities 4 days a week. It's insane....
My only helpful advice is, you really really need some time out and if you don't get it it won't' be nice. For me, work is time out from kids and kids is time out from work. But it's still very draining.
Also and I am aware of how bad this sounds, my 4 year old watches a lot of TV. SHe is 4 and her favourite shows are the simpsons, big bang theory and horrible histories.

Oh, I get this all the time! "Did you have a relaxing three-day weekend?"

"I'm a single mother of an ILP*. No, I did not have a 'relaxing' three-day weekend!"

Actually, Hanni and I have some amazing weekends together, I wouldn't trade them for anything, but I start my workweek exhausted. Talk about the 'second shift.' (And third, and fourth, and fifth . . .)



*Intense Little Person

What worked for us is an establishment of boundaries. If DD was asking too many questions and we needed a break or needed to concentrate on something else, we'd just tell her it's not a good time, let's talk about it later. DW also used the "ask your dad when he gets home" line. A VERY important component of this strategy was that, later on, we'd make sure to revisit with DD. "Okay, I've got time now, what was your question?" If we didn't, DD would have figured out that "ask later" was code talk for "ask never." Deliberate follow-up on our part gave her the confidence to accept that any delay was temporary, and not a put-off.

As for danger seeking... we let natural consequences handle that one. If she was doing something where she was an accident waiting to happen, we told her to stop, and she argued with us, as long as the chances of her doing any permanent damage were sufficiently slim, we'd allow her to continue. When she hurt herself, we'd do a quick damage assessment, and once we established she was basically okay, we'd say, "Told ya." She became REALLY receptive of safety information from her parents after a few of these.

Of course, a couple of years later DD decided it'd be a good idea to wear her bike helmet in the car, and strangers were giving DW ugly looks as a result, but that's what makes these kids so fun.


I hope you explained how difficult it would be to come up with boomslang skin and lacewing flies.

Yes... my DD's obsession with HP is in its third year now... why do you ask?


I would choose another word here besides "immediately," because, having been on the other side of this, after dealing with work and commute stressors, this can feel very much like an ambush. Give your partner at least half an hour to ease into this. In our household, we find that dinner time makes for a natural transition period.

My older son now 5, incessantly talks. Usually wanted feedback, but sometimes not. From 2.5-3, he would recite books all day long. We had to enforce engaged communication at the dinner table. As others have said, by 3.5-4, he was reading well and that helped. He still talks and questions a lot, but the burden is somewhat shared between myself, dh, and ds2.

Hang in there! Yes, it is exhausting. Yet, I truly believe I am happy that my 2 crazy boys are much, much more interesting and fun than those quiet, obedient bump on a log kids.

Ohgodohgodohgodohgodohgod when is this going to happen for me?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Ah, so this is what the next few years will look like! My DS16mo is similarly always switched onto hyper-engaged mode. It starts about...oh...4 seconds after waking and ends with him suddenly crashing at night. Glad to see other parents have made it through with sanity reasonably intact!

I really do empathize. I know this may sound unlikely, but it did really help me to have another child, although it took a while for this to "work," obviously. One though on this:


Gently: I have know quite a lot of new moms who have had not-great experiences with group outings with their littles and decided to put them off or avoid them for sometimes years. I get the impulse but I advise you to either keep trying, or, if it's as bad as all that, seek help for the issues that are making it so problematic. I do think kids need group time and I also think it's good for mom, too. He will eventually adjust better to preschool and school if he's gotten more of the time, and you will feel better knowing he can handle other environments. Also, do you use babysitters? I avoided them a lot with my first because she was intense and I was afraid to leave her with people. It was a mistake. Find a good one.

I am familiar with that trapped feeling. I am so glad to not be in it anymore. I would say...the world is full of other people and other environments and you don't have to be everything all the time. Take a break, even if you worry that he will be less than happy or that others will find him odd in some way. Lots of kids are odd in some way.

Mine is not 3 yet but I could have written most of your post. . If you lived nearby, would love to get them together...

For us, most group classes have been really bad but we found one that has been great - a parent-tot gymnastics class with a particularly great teacher. As a bonus, there are a number of gymnastics places in town that have open gym for kids under 5. Even if you don't try out the classes, really recommend open gym as a place to be a bit of a daredevil and bounce where everything is padded... Really, it has been a sanity saver this winter.

Mine also happily talks the ear off any 5 or 6 year old boy who happens to stop by the train table in the bookstore. Another fun outing.

But Polyjuice Potion is only meant for human transformations!
(At our house, the HP obsession is mine.) ;o)

Yeah, well, I think that her logic was that it worked out just fine for Hermione, and she was quite curious about what the world looks like from a cat's perspective.

She also baby-oiled one of our cats at a later date. Yes-- baby oil. This was apparently part of a planned "spa day" for kitty. She explained to me that she had wanted to make the cat's coat "shiny and sleek."

Kitty was not very impressed with the "thoroughgoing but sympathetic degreasing bath" part of Spa Day's aftermath.

I mention this just in case anyone were unaware that my very bright child is, in spite of evidence to the contrary, still very much in possession of a child's life experience and judgment. LOL.

I remember when DD8 was three. She was mostly potty-trained, but we had a changing mat on the floor in her bedroom for those occasional diapers that were easier to deal with when she was lying down. I walked into her bedroom and found that she had a giant teddy bear lying on the changing mat. She was holding both of its ankles up with one hand and was just cracking open the tub of Vaseline with the other.

I so needed to read this thread today. When I tell people that DS NEVER STOPS TALKING! I dont' think they get it, so it's good to hear I'm not alone with this. My DS doesn't ask so many questions, he just diatribes about everything. When he does ask a question, what he really wants is for me to say "No, I don't know" so that he can answer the question himself with a 3 minute long lecture. Oh, and if he starts to say something and it doesn't come out quite the way he wanted, he starts over again from the beginning.

I feel awful that this bothers me because he's not doing anything wrong. But, I am an intorvert who needs alone time and silence, and it's very grating to my sense of peace in life.

Although, it does make life with DS much more interesting

Thanks to everyone. It's a relief to see that I'm not alone!

My son does attend a play-based preschool a handful of hours a week, so I do (thank goodness) get a little bit of time alone. And I take him to museums, libraries, parks, playdates, etc, as often as I can. Even so, I often fantasize about going back to work full-time. :p

I am glad to hear that others have kids who are interested in destroying the house. So often I go to another family's house, and they have a grown-up living situation, with glass shelves, knick-knacks, no baby gates, etc, and I am just baffled, how is this possible?



Mine does this, too. The Your Three Year Old: Friend or Enemy (hah!) folks say that this is very typical for kids at around 31/2, to stutter or have to start over. I do think it's funny (and sometimes trying) to listen to a three-year-old pontificate about whatever but have to start over at the very beginning of his monologue because he stumbled somewhere. I get a lot of practice with patient listening!

For those who also have kids who never stop talking, have you had any success instituting Quiet Time? For a while I tried to have quiet time in the car (because I honestly felt like the constant talking and questioning was making me a less safe driver) and it was not super-successful.

I have another question for the group, about explaining scientific concepts. A common thing here is that he will hear something like "friction" and seize on it, and ask for information. I do my best to explain, but I often feel like, because his language use is so far ahead of the rest of his development, I can't be sure that I'm actually helping him understand anything - or if he's just parroting phrases. We've had good luck with the Vicki Cobb Science Play picture books, especially the one about gravity, I Fall Down. Any other recommendations for books or other resources?

For quiet time, have you tried books on tape with headphones?

I raised three of them, and there were days I really wondered if I was ever going to get through it. It is relentless and exhausting. I was a stay at home mom, as well, and while I loved every moment of it and don't regret the choice at all, I also know how tough it is to constantly be "in the trenches" with no "valid" excuse to get a needed break.

A few thoughts and tactics that helped:

Negotiate, bribe and reward. Seriously. I continually negotiated with my youngest when I couldn't take the talking anymore. "Ok. Tell me this, and then you have to stop talking for 20 minutes. After that, we will get a small treat for you while we are at Target." No one else would understand that kind of negotiation, but it worked. He would negotiate two things, I'd agree, he'd tell me his two things, and then he'd live with the agreement and be quiet. I used this A LOT when we were in the car running errands.

I hit the garage sales for audio books, and kept a "reading station" at their little play table in our family room. Books, audio books, kid-friendly CD player with headphones. Yes, we threw a lot of broken and scratched cc's away, but they hadn't cost much in the beginning. I also kept a supply of crayons, paper, those horrid little workbooks they sell at Walgreens, etc. None were used for their intended purpose, but they kept the kids busy for a while where they were in plain view of me in the kitchen.

Keep glue, scissors, paste, etc. out of reach in a cabinet that they don't know you use. If they do, they'll wait until you're busy and then get it themselves.

If you have someone to watch the kids one evening a week, take a class, whether it is a craft, a continuing ed class, a cooking class or an exercise class like dance, yoga, etc. just make sure it is something that sparks your passion. I took enough cooking classes that I ended up getting paid to work as the Chet's assistant during the classes and got them free that way. They really helped me keep connected to the "world outside of being mom".

Exhaust them. Take them on loooong walks outside in good weather, in the mall in bad weather. My gifted kids had such intensity that it was really hard for them to get to the end of something - a passionate interest, a project, a sport - so I finally gave in to the whole intensity and helped them exhaust themselves either physically or intellectually. They were happier, more at peace, and I got some quiet time while they spent quiet time regenerating their batteries. In later years, I enrolled them in rock climbing because it exhausts them mentally and physically. All of them have said what they loved most is that they couldn't think about anything other than how to make the next move on the wall and that it was one of the few activities that required their full physical and mental attention, giving them a much needed break from their own intense thinking.

The computer is your friend. I know a lot of people don't agree, but I couldn't answer all their questions or participate to the intensity they needed when they found a new passion (dinosaurs, archeology, space, ...), so we put serious parental controls on a computer in our family area and let them explore away.

Talk to them at the level they need, not what your friends think is appropriate. I talked to my kids like they were adults when it came to reasons (because Mommy said so NEVER worked in our house), but kept the content appropriate for their age (no adult topics) and remembered that while their vocabulary might be way beyond their years, they were still wee ones on the inside that needed appropriately protected and nurtured. But I never dumbed things down.

Hope this helps. I'd like to say they get less intense, but mine didn't. They just got more self-reliant and self-sufficient.

If he seems satisfied with the answer, then I wouldn't worry about it too much. He'll have plenty of opportunities to get a deep understanding of friction (or whatever else he happens to be asking about) later.

There is no doubt that high intensity, high IQ kids bring a unique set of challenges and rewards to parenting, but I'm not sure it is better or worse than the challenges and rewards of parents with kids who are "quiet, obedient 'bump on a log"'kids", and if I had parented a "bump on the log" kid, I'd likely take exception at my child being described as such, just as much as I often did take exception to my kid being referred to as weird, out there, geek, or crazy smart.

Just a thought.

ABQMom-
I really didn't mean to be hurtful when saying what I did. Personally, my two boys get compared with the cousins who are really quite the opposite of them; and my in- laws don't understand our struggles or why they have soooo much energy (even if its excessive talking). It is a very frustrating situation.

I certainly didn't mean to seem that the only good kids are our very intense ones. I apologize. Also, I try to tell myself, that though exhausting, I enjoy them and all they are.

I've used most of the strategies outlined by ABQmom. Two things that she said really resonated with me...

1. negotiate for quiet time-- or offer valid reasons why you NEED it. This is the advantage of HG+ kids... all that intensity also comes with beyond-chronological ability to process cause-and-effect, to some extent. "Mommy would like to hear about ______, but right now, I need all of my attention for driving the car. Can you wait to tell me when we get to {destination}? Or is this an emergency?"

2. I made up preschool "centers" in small plastic storage boxes starting when my DD was about two. I also hid stickers, tape, and staplers... and kept glue LOCKED (so not kidding). Coloring materials, she had access to, because she wasn't prone to abuse of the medium, oddly. We gave her a LeapPad and a bunch of books to use with it when she was about 20 months. Oh-- and HEADPHONES.


I also second the notion of taking a class or something at least once a week. Or just go to the library- by yourself. I took Tai Chi. (Introvert here)


The most important thing, though-- is what she mentioned about offering explanations that seem {your kid} appropriate, not those that seem "preschool" or "toddler" appropriate.



Honestly, I simply explained things. Using whatever terms and analogies seemed to meet her where she was at the time. She understood, for example, that a car is very big, very powerful, and carries a tremendous amount of energy as it moves... therefore, it's VERY IMPORTANT to operate the vehicle safely and to make sure that you don't hit anything. It took time (witness the side mirror incident) for her to understand that there are times when I simply can't be talking with her in the car while I'm driving... but honestly, I think that her awareness of the surroundings/driving conditions is ultimately going to make her a more aware driver in a few more years, too.

We use the same approach, and it's already paying dividends with DD8, when we take her to ride her bicycle in the nearby cul-de-sac at the very end of an otherwise busy street. She notes how drivers are extraordinarily lazy at turning on those turn signals, but she waits patiently each time, anyway.

Well, it's a combination of explaining everything, plus the natural consequences thing I mentioned earlier. The consequences were a necessary first step to get DD listening in the first place.

As soon as I read the original post, I was going to suggest a parent-tot gym class. We did Little Gym but I think any gym class would be wonderful. My son (now 4) would not attend any of the other parent-tot classes I thought he would enjoy but he loved gym class. We go to open gym and I am planning to enroll him at a more traditional gymnastics center this summer.

Parent-child swim classes also worked well or us. DS stopped napping around 2.5 so it seemed I never had any down time. An early morning swim class guaranteed a two-hour afternoon nap so I would have some time to myself (although I often fell asleep as well).

Love the thesaurus implant idea! I struggle with this too.

I am an introvert and DS has been intense since he was born. Up until recently, DH really had no idea what I was talking about when I would say that I just needed a break. "How hard can just one child be?" was his attitude. But when DD (1 month) was born and DH started spending 6-7 hours a day with DS, he suddenly had a whole new appreciation for what I've been through the last three years. Even though he's an extrovert, DH said he's never felt so drained in his entire life.

DH often works 12 hour days, so I instituted a "meal times are quiet times" policy when it's just the two of us, which might seem backwards, but it works for us. He sits at a little table with his snack or meal (in the same room as me) and gets to watch something on his iPad or a video, and I get some desperately needed quiet time. He's also a very picky/resistant/selective eater, so being distracted while he eats helps him consume more, which for us is a plus.

Finding older, verbal, and energetic children for him to play with (neighbors and cousins) has been very helpful as well. I still have to supervise them since DS is also attracted to mischief, but it takes some of the burden for input off my shoulders and tires him out.

I don't have any books to recommend, but this forum has been a life-saver for me. Being able to read about other parent's experiences and to know that I'm not crazy is refreshing.

Hunh. We do the same thing with meal times... not always, but exactly that. He gets to watch a video, which makes him eat more, which is HUGE for us, and I get to take a deep breath.

Interesting...

Same here

Feel free to totally ignore me...but...be aware that there is a lot of research strongly advising against combining TV/video watching with mealtime. Also, you might be interested to know that the worry about underweight children seems to be dying back a little as experts realize that getting small kids to eat however possible can backfire. I had a failure to thrive baby so I do know how it can be, believe me.

Anything TV related seems to be a big no-no. I find that a bit frustrating. I wonder what the research says about combining, say mealtimes and books (which we also do). For that matter we combine mealtimes with discussion, too (sometimes all three, simultaneously ) Or eating and travelling (which we also do) I know the parenting experts here want kids to always sit at a table, and do nothing but eat while the eat. DS, under those conditions, simply does not eat. At all. Well, ok, it's not simply that, he also tantrums extensively about being asked to put down stuff, come to the table, that stuff. And then he's hungry, so he tantrums about everything else, too.

Food is also kinda frustrating. Mine stopped growing taller for a while when he was 2 hitting 3, and when we paid attention, he was eating 300 calories a day, which, uh, yeah, not enough.

Anyway, I'd be interested in following up on the research you mention, we were not given a lot of advice, beyond "add oil," and to be honest, my natural approach was just to get him eating, however possible. I've kept it healthy, but that's my only real rule (I see some people using junk food as a way around not-eating, but that doesn't even work for us, so, ya know. I do let him have more yop/juice/milk than is sometimes advised...)

What exactly IS one supposed to do about not-eating? (sorry, I'm supposed to be able to manage the not-whining thing, aren't I ;))

-Mich

Michaela,

We do the exact same things. I also give him food while he plays, which is also not recommended by experts. We feel he needs good food to grow and that we will focus on sitting at a table to eat later. Like when he is developmentally ready for me to have an uninterrupted half hour phone call. He can do so many things that are beyond milestones, so I think the eating issues are a bit of asynchronousity. His brain is chugging along so quickly now, it doesn't yet recognize the importance of stopping and eating.

At this point, I am going with the most important and immediate issue -- food as the basic building block to grow. We eat no junk food here. A lot (a lot!) of meat, fresh veggies and fruit, and occasionally whole wheat pasta. We go through 3 avocadoes a week. He hasn't gained a pound in over 6 months. I can't imagine how he would do if we didn't distract and feed him with books, coloring, and (when I am exhausted) the tv.

This wouldn't be needed for most kids, but I truly believe mine does not feel hunger. (Full disclosure: DH and I before having him had to remind ourselves to eat because we would often forget to eat because WE were busy with work or a project of some kind. We now are better about it because we make such an effort to feed DS and model better behavior.)

I wonder how many parents here have children who are light eaters. We're in a similar boat. Maybe it's time for a new thread to that end!

My DS (just 5) gained 1 lb last year, but they are okay with it at the ped. He is no longer extremely thin, though. (20%th?) He used to be "off the chart."

I recommend Ellyn Satter's work for feeding issues, though I should say that I have a thin child, but not one who refuses food.

The thing that concerns experts is that eating while distracted may seem good now, with a child who appears thin, but as a lifelong habit, it is risky.

ultramarina, I can totally see where that is coming from. But I also think that small children are a lot harder to feed than slightly older ones and habits morph over time. How we get our kids to eat at 1yr is different to 2yrs, to 3yrs and to 10yrs old... We've never really done TV or books to eat (well ipad for the youngest at breakfast sometimes, not so much because she won't eat but so that she will stop talking and we can manage to sort the older two out). BUT our kids have been extremely hard to get to focus on eating, to keep at the table, etc as small children. Miss ADHD is (unsurprisingly) still very hard to keep at the table, but for her we've gone from "exciting stuff at the table to keep her there" as a toddler to "She'll only eat if there is NOTHING more interesting going on". The problem we face and thus the approach we use is quite different at 6 than at 2.

She doesn't eat at school, because there is nothing we can send to school that meets school rules, her dietry restrictions, is practical for school, and which is also tempting enough for her to eat while a) she's on meds so her appetite is suppressed and b) there is so much that is SO much more interesting than eating when her appetite is suppressed. At home, on meds, she will eat - if we feed her appealing enough food in a boring enough environment and an adult supervises to make sure she pays attention long enough to eat.

For us family meals where we all sit at the table and have a conversation are, and always have been, a priority, we work hard to make that work and to teach our kids that this is how you eat. BUT we've done all manner of things along the way that are far from this. We've had years at a time where I fed our eldest the 3-4 foods she would eat on her own and then ate with DH hours later. We pick our battles. Honestly I think a lot of that research is aimed at people who are NOT seeing eat while they watch tele as an evolution, a "What ever works to get us through this one moment" but as the status quo, plenty of adults, couples and families do not see eating at the dining table as a family as what they do every day. So I am not sure how helpful this research is to those parents who know where they would LIKE to be and also know what is (and is not) humanly possible with this particular kid right now.

Oh my goodness, I hate to admit this even in a forum of like-minded people, but raising our little boy has been so hard that we're not sure we can handle having another baby. I look at all the women I know who had kids at the same time we did, and most are on their second baby, and some on their third, and I feel so, so disheartened. I would love for us to have another child, but I'm just not sure we can do it.

And second, the older child thing is interesting. I had been avoiding letting my kid play with older kids (out of a possibly-misguided concern that his emotional development isn't in the right place) but he's been playing with a neighborhood 6yo recently and having a really good time. I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier.

Anyway, TV, and food. I relate to a lot of what people are saying.

I have a lot of bad feelings and guilt about how much TV my kid watches. My ideal is basically zero, so it's not like we're watching seven hours of TV a day or anything. But I feel bad about the TV we do watch. My husband just said something about feeling awful about "using TV to anesthetize" our son, and that's pretty much how I feel.

I would love to have a calm, vaguely Waldorfy home with no screens and a lot of watercoloring. But that is just not my reality in this moment, and I no longer really feel that it's possible, at least not right now. My son is just so... he's so intense. He needs so much - input, attention, conversation, information. And he's so very persistent. And easily bored by things that do not fully grab him. (That is, I can spend 10 minutes setting up some complex activity I think is going to be very successful, and 20 seconds later he's like "Yeah... I see what you did here. Thanks. What else?")

TV is the one reliable thing that will focus him on something that isn't me for a few minutes at a time. We don't have normal TV (we have a roku, so no commercials) and we restrict his viewing pretty strictly to certain types of programming. So there are certainly ways we could be doing worse than we are. But... I still have the guilt and I wish it were different, but I literally don't know what else to do to cope!

(I too let him eat while playing. I know this is not Ellyn Satter-approved, but like many, he's so easily distractable by non-eating activities. I'm doing the best I can here, and our diet is totally junk-free, so... I don't know. I often think of things I want to change or improve about our family life, and then I immediately think about how I am 100% focused on my child already, I just don't know where the ability to change things like eating while he plays is going to come from.)

Phew. I'm having a particularly hard time today. I'm really glad this forum exists. It's so nice to know that other parents are where I am.

This is exactly where I was a little over a year ago. My husband was strongly against the idea of another baby because we knew we couldn't survive more years like the ones we'd just been through. But I thought, what are the odds... Thankfully DD1m is the mellow baby we prayed for, but I see a gleam in her eye sometimes that makes me wonder what we're in for further down the road.

I'm not going to lie though, pregnancy was hard because I had even less energy than normal. I looked into preschools, but nothing that seemed like a good fit ended up working out. I felt bad that I couldn't play with DS3 as actively while I was pregnant and after DD was born, not having as much time for DS made me feel very guilty at times. It's been a tough adjustment, but not quite as bad as I imagined. This was partly thanks to my husband, who used up all his vacation time and worked from home whenever possible, since we knew our son would need a lot of help with the transition.

All that said, I wouldn't change things and I'm glad we went for it. But it's such a personal decision. We are definitely done at two, no more Russian roulette for me since I'm not sure how #3 would turn out. I don't want to push my luck.

We've occasionally joked that DD13 is "good enough for two children," as our tongue-in-cheek explanation for why she's an only (which is complicated and frankly nobody's business anyway)...

but the real reason is at least partly that she's just.... ENOUGH for two children. Enough intensity, enough curiosity, enough conversation, enough stubbornness, enough unrelated medical problems, etc. etc. She's just been an e-ticket ride from day one.

I sometimes feel like she's given us the parenting experiences that some of our friends with three or four haven't had. (Seriously.)

I'm very sorry to tell you this, but my DD is nearing 7 and still talks nonstop. I have to say, she comes by it naturally; I still remember myself at that age, and I drove my brother insane.

I don't think I could handle it if I had been home with her all the time before she started school.

Mom! Mom! Mom! Mom! Mom!

I've tried answering her in a mocking version of her shriek, to make a point, but unfortunately all it's done is become a habit for me, so that when either kid says "Mom!" I automatically shriek "What?"

I've had some slight success with inquiring "is anyone bleeding?" "Is anyone on fire?" but it only gets a momentary respite before the summons resume.

My mother is undoubtedly laughing her butt off at me when I can't go to the bathroom without at least one child.

I'm reviving this thread because it is so à propos. 2 years later, DS is still a non-stop conversation on legs. Everything is lived through a detailed play-by-play, often accompanied by excitement that leaks out physically as an impromptu Martha Graham style interpretive dance. Thankfully, he now eats (with a steady stream of books.)

I, on the other hand, have gotten softer around the edges (both figuratively and literally!) Now, DS can accompany me on my workouts (and I have learned to listen patiently to a diatribe on whatever while doing deadlifts) and I can slap together a meal for us that takes more than 5 minutes of active prep. The constant input need is still exhausting, but in a more forgiving way than before because DS is developing a better appreciation that his parents do fatigue.

One big sanity saver has been DS' sleep maturation, whereby he can self-sustain sleep for an hour or more without direct physical contact. I no longer need to actively manage his sleep environment. (As I type, he's snoozing beside me, without our touching, as hammering is going on below us.)

I'd be interested in a redux from the other posters.

Hi Aquinas,

It's gotten better for us too. At almost 4.5, DS still talks nonstop when he is interested in having a conversation or playing or in the bathtub/shower... Lots of interpretive dance and singing here too. He is absolutely silent when reading, which he does very intensely. I check in on him because the silence makes me a bit nervous that he might be up to something.

He is eating better too. He will sit and eat at the table with us. Occasionally, he wanders off for a bit, but he comes back to finish eating. He doesn't eat as quickly at the table as he does when watching tv or reading a book, but we are now easing into those better eating habits. We no longer feed him while playing. He's welcome to take a break and have a snack though and often does. He still out and out refuses most junk food, so some of those early habits have paid off. He just didn't develop a taste for them (yet).

Some days he intensely wants my attention and input and other days, he really just wants to be independent and my presence (hovering) just isn't wanted. I can actually make a real meal that takes a lot of prep. Two years ago I wouldn't have thought it was possible.

As for sleeping, he sleeps in a bed tent that looks like a race car over a twin mattress on the floor. He still rolls out of bed every once in a while, so it isn't on a box spring or bed frame. Every once in a while, he'll call for me to get him a cup of water in the middle of the night, even though he knows it is next to his bed. No complaints on my end though. He'll probably grow out of it eventually.

This is so funny.
DS is 8 and I STILL have to yell at him to STOP! BITE! CHEW! And frequently "Come back to the table!"

For cultural reasons, I refuse to have books or any screen time going on during a family meal (I eat while working or reading by myself of course which is, um, totally different). So, he will have to learn how to sustain a multilateral dinner conversation and still eat. Not easy. Having him learn to read fluently, sustainably at age five was such a wonderful development for our family. It's only when the non stop talking stops during the day that you realize just how exhausting it is (and I am an introvert to boot).

These days, I am also not above to just telling to stop and shut up. Nicely, the first time. Not so nicely the fifth. Sometimes I need to hear my own thoughts.

Oh, and the sleep thing really got better around age 5.5, too. Not sure whether it is coincidental, but feel being able to get sustained intellectual input while reading quirky in a corner as opposed to getting it through an activity that somehow winds you up (talking, screen time etc) really helped.

I'm here! It's funny, I'm currently going through another wave of "Oh God, is my child gifted? Do I have to get him tested? I need help!!!!" and feelings of despair. I hate googling for information about this, because first I have to wade through the layer of stuff about "you probably think your kid is gifted but you're probably wrong" to get to the people I can relate to, who are more like "Listen, it's more helpful to think of my kid as someone with a disability who requires accommodation" than people who are happily sharing the information that their kid is very smart. So naturally I came back here to read what other people are going through, and saw this thread had floated back up.

My son is 5 now. The short version is that nothing has really changed, only intensified further. I have learned more coping and self-care skills in the intervening years, but as I've learned to cope more, so has his intensity increased (in fact, I think that my improved ability to remain calm in the face of his emotional intensity has slowly taught him that it's safe to let that stuff run - hoo, boy, mixed blessing), so that overall I feel that I'm emotionally in a sort of holding pattern. I level up, he levels up, etc. Very Red Queen. I feel that my central challenge has been to accept that he is the way he is, no matter what label gets put on that way of being, and I increasingly have. Other parenting opinions are less important to me now, because I can see that they just don't really apply to someone who is the way he is. Great, you think that the key to parenting is to be "firm and consistent"? Meet my child, who has been brushing his teeth every night for years and who resists like SPARTAAAAAA every single night with novel arguments. His father is a successful lawyer with extremely powerful arguing skills and he still gets argued into the ground. (Which is the kind of thing where if you don't have that same experience, will sound like... "but the parents obviously just need to put their foot down", I know.)

It made me laugh to read in this post that he was, at three, interested in taking out window screens, because I had forgotten, but right now he's going through another phase of that. (Apparently he had an idea that if he could take one out, it would make a great pretend giant screen computer ala Star Trek or something.) So his behavior and intensity has not really changed, but now I talk to him like he's an adult, basically, about why it doesn't work to take out window screens. It still takes many, MANY repetitions, because his drive to do things he wants/needs to do to satisfy curiosity is so intensely powerful. What has changed is that I am more able to accept that this is a fundamental trait in him that is not helped by being authoritarian. So it's more that I am able to remain calm in the face of the totally insane things he does and less that he does saner things.

In a lot of ways, my family/domestic life revolves around managing his intensity. The way our home is decorated (nothing can hang on walls - all furniture is chosen to be safe for people who need to parkour around the room), the way I feed him (yes, it's great that your child is eventually convinced to join in what everyone else is eating - thanks for your opinion that I could easily make this happen with my child if I tried harder), the way I run errands (without him whenever possible). Our family life is essentially designed, at this point, to be the path of least resistance for dealing with someone who is extremely driven, extremely intense, extremely emotional, extremely physical, extremely curious. Other families have "screentime limits", ours has conversations about how marketers try to manipulate children into desiring their products using narrative and cute characters they recognize. The forbidden fascinates him. I have learned the hard way to not forbid ("Because I said so" does not work with him. Trust me, I've tried. It doesn't.) and instead to talk to him about listening to your own brain's instincts about safety, emotional safety, etc.

My bottom line at this point is that I have a radical child-rearing approach that makes it often really hard for me to relate to or talk with other parents in a genuine way. (I think it's easy for the way I parent to seem "permissive" to others, which makes me feel sad, defensive and isolated.) My home life feels not very similar to other peoples' home life. Mom and dad are still the ultimate authority here, but our lives are also set up so that he can make as many of his own choices as possible. It just feels like he isn't like other kids so dramatically that I've had to piece together a child-rearing system that looks very little like other peoples'. That often makes me feel like I'm alone in the universe, as a mother.

He's in his last year of a progressive preschool program and will go to their elementary program next year. It's a very non-traditional child-led program, which is (I hope) a good fit for him, because he shuts down in the face of direct instruction. I went through a short phase of encouraging him to learn to read (for probably obvious reasons) and all that happened was that he would dig in, get extremely resistant, and then when I wasn't paying attention do math on his own or whatever. He is not a person who generally benefits from direct instruction unless he has come to you asking for it. Answering unasked questions, with him, is counterproductive. I went through something similar with trying to potty-train: it was totally pointless, a power struggle that went nowhere. Once I backed off completely and was able to genuinely say "You'll figure this out when you're ready. It's okay to wait until you're ready", he potty-trained (including overnight) from literally one day to the next, without my "help".

My best metaphor for thinking about parenting him is to think that he's a visiting alien dignitary I have been assigned to show around the planet. Thinking that I'm here to teach him how things are, how to behave, how to do things, backfires almost every single time. Thinking, instead, that I am here to facilitate growth that emerges from within him, is the only way to make things work moderately well for both of us.

For us as parents, this trait of resisting direct instruction tends to feed our "Is he actually "gifted"? Are we crazy?" because there isn't something specific and academic to point to to bolster our suspicions. He isn't reading Shakespeare. (He sight-reads certain words but aggressively resists phonics or direct reading instruction.) He has an enormous and ever-increasing vocabulary, but we can never tell if that's an indication of anything. He self-generates math for himself, but it's just addition and subtraction and some multiplication. He has broad, intense interests. He has extremely grandiose ideas that far, far outstrip his ability to execute those ideas in physical reality, which is very frustrating for him - this is a major issue that is hard for me to figure out how to support. The gap between where he is (can build a circuit in his Snap Circuits) and where his ideas are (autonomous robot that will pick up his toys) is enormous and very disappointing to him. Starting at three, he's had moments of having very intense feelings about things like the infinity of the universe or the finite nature of biological life. He had a series of spiritual/existential "crises" (I don't know what else to call them) starting at around the time I wrote this first post. They were really hard for me to cope with, because talking to someone who is three about whether or not there is a consciousness that persists after death feels very complicated. I've had conversations about spirituality with him that are more difficult and complex than most conversations I've had with adults. (I'm not saying that to brag - if anything, I'm saying this because OH GOD HELP ME.)

I still find parenting him very challenging. I feel even more than I once did that he isn't much like most other kids. I still wrestle with "is this giftedness? or is this... something else?" His father and I repeatedly cycle through wondering if he has some kind of mild developmental disorder that causes Difficult Personality Syndrome or if this is all part of the way in which his brain is an uncommon one.

His emotional intensity has been hardest for me to deal with. I've gotten some use out of Dabrowski's theory of overexcitabilities here, but fundamentally I am still in the position where I have to live with/parent someone who can have very deep sadness or anger over things like there not being more milk in the fridge, or be sad for days that a house he built in Minecraft burned down. It's very easy to find myself tiptoeing around him. I often feel unqualified. Like maybe my kid needs a group of gurus/therapists to follow him around and buffer the world for him, but instead what he's got is me. I could at least use an 800 number for emergencies, you know?

Re: sleep, it took a long time to get him to be able to sleep apart from me. He now spends part of the night in his own room and part of the night next to my side of the bed. I'd like to get to a place where I no longer have to sit next to him as he falls asleep, but path of least resistance. I try to remember the lesson of potty training, which is that his development tends to be invisible, invisible, invisible, BOOM, total radical change you didn't see coming.

I've learned, in terms of self-care, to use the time he's in preschool to meditate and do yoga and take care of myself instead of trying to work. It's been a tough journey for me: I defined myself in terms of my work (which I LOVED and was the center of my life before becoming a mother) but for right now, the sanity that becomes possible when I take care of myself is more important than my work. (But I really miss it.)

Right now, my husband and I are trying to figure out whether or not have him evaluated. I feel quite fearful of what I worry will be an initial gauntlet of "All parents think their children are geniuses" headpatting, because I find raising him to be so exhausting and overwhelming - I don't want bragging rights, I want help, insight, and support!

appleblossom, I don't know if it makes you feel better but FWIW, I am raising a girl version of your DS and it is really exhausting and overwhelming. Yesterday, we spent the whole morning outdoors and I thought that'd slow her down. She practiced music all afternoon. At that point, I thought she was physically and mentally exhausted. I tried to send her to bed after dinner but her response was, "But Mommy, how am I supposed to go to sleep? I'm not tired at all." I wanted to cry.

DD4 had to get evaluated for K entrance and I have no regrets but if your DS is happy at his school and you feel his educational needs are being met, I'd hold off on the eval until he is 6 so he can take the WISC. I think you'd get more of a complete picture that way.

Appleblossom, just wanted to chime in that although things have majorly improved for us, it is still incredibly exhausting. Our house is definitely set up for parkour. :-). And a trampoline is a necessity in our tv room.

I'm glad you have a school that is fitting. That is really great. We're pretty much planning to homeschool. The unschoolers groups have been a good fit for us for the most part, although there are a few parents who don't appreciate that our son has interests they deem too academic. That has more to do with their own issues. For the most part the groups and kids have been welcoming and the parents are accepting of the intensity and self driven decision making. The older kids have been great for our son.

We are thinking of waiting until at least age 6 for the WISC to have DS tested. Our main motivator is access to programs like DYS.

amen to the trampoline. we have one too.

My ex got the trampoline in our divorce and I miss it. I have 2 and they're so incredibly exhausting, though each on their own may be slightly less stubborn. I look at people who's children stand quietly in lines at the grocery store and I think, How do you do that? I have no idea. Appleblossom, it sounds like you might get some comfort out of testing, but only if he'd cooperate with the tests, of course. My 5yo DS did not, and it ended up being mostly a waste of time because of that. My daughter wasn't particularly cooperative at around age 5 either but we did get reliable solid scores at age 8. It's a long time to wonder, though.

What kind of trampoline do all of you own? We live in a small loft, but I'm starting to think it might be worthwhile to sacrifice our downstairs bathroom to trampoline storage as DS is always running, jumping, and climbing.

We have a small fitness trampoline with a padded handle and a 150 lb weight limit. It is roughly 3 feet in diameter and worth every square inch it takes in my house. My husband and I often joke that we wish we had one in every room.

We never put it away. It is always out and used several times daily. It takes up most of the floor space in the room. On the bright side, pretty sure it is extending the life of my couch, which just can't handle so much bouncing as he has gotten bigger.

If you do get one, definitely get one with a handle.

Aquinas, this is the one we have: http://www.amazon.com/Stamina-36-in...id=1432136885&sr=8-6&keywords=trampoline

It doesn't have a handle, but we haven't seen too much of an issue there - sure there are some tumbles, but the thing is so low to the ground thats it's not really any different than falling off of anything else. I figure it will teach them balance. Or how to fall gracefully? Maybe not. :P

Basically, it's inexpensive, not very big...easy to shove in the garage or under a table (or against the wall) if we need to be rid of it for some occasion. But it pretty much always stays out in our living room

Thanks ladies! I've been looking into a few folding trampolines with handles, but they all have negative reviews about the trampolines flipping! I'll take a look at your suggestions.

We have a Bazoongi 48" one. It has been worth every penny and more.

Our son hangs on the handle and has used the handle to bounce the trampoline off the ground a bit, but we have taught him that the trampoline needs to stay on the ground and to watch his balance. You definitely won't want to leave him unsupervised with it until you are really comfortable that he knows whathe is doing and is safe on it. When he was smaller and still figuring things out, I'd keep within reaching distance and put my foot on the frame iif I felt he was getting too much air -- but we've had this one since he was one.

LOL - we have ours in the living room (no other place for it really) my DS7 bounces from the trampoline to the sofa, to the ottoman and back again!

I've (mostly) given up on trying to save the sofa.

Ours doesn't fold - it's out pretty much all the time. But if we need it out of the way we can lean it against a wall.
Purchased it at a store that sells fitness items.

We also use one of these:

http://shop.fitnessdepot.ca/Bosu-Ball-Home-Balance-Trainer--P79.aspx#.VV8oqEbMKcM

I apparently like to come back every year to update this thread, hehe.

I finally got our kid a trampoline after seeing the raves here. I really hesitated, because we live in such a small big-city apartment, but it has been GREAT. I'd recommend it to anyone. Totally worth sacrificing the space.

Thanks for the trampoline tips! Really helpful.

Hi appleblossom,

Omg, I so empathize with your original post! DS6 has always been that way, and DS4 is not that far behind. I don't know if anyone has posted about this, but we've found that audiobooks are an absolute lifesaver. We use them in the car but even if you don't drive, they might still work at home (or heck, with headphones on the bus or whatever).

We started off getting some from the library for longer trips, but I now keep a steady supply of them in the car even to get around town. That way, we know that we can get a break from the incessant talking as soon as we get into the car! They've been listening to the Magic Tree House books and we're now on book number 44. When we get to the end, I think we'll just start over again. Or maybe they'll be ready to move on to Roald Dahl or something.