To be honest, I am a little embarassed to be posting and asking this because I believe all parents hope that their child is a genius in the making, a future ball player, or maybe a gifted artist. I want to be sure that I am looking at things with objectivity! I resist pushing things because I just want to be sure that his love for math is his, not something I want for him. In any case, I am hoping that I can get some feedback on our 6 YO son and his math skills.

To get straight to the point, my son (youngest of two) absolutely loves math. So much so that he asks if we can do word problems during tuck-in time before bed. Admittedly, my golf buddies think this is a little odd! He is comfortable with subtraction (including negatives), addition, multiplication, counting by 2's, 3's, 5's (forward), is able to write out solutions for basic algebra, and has a basic understanding of the powers of 10. He even grasps the concept of exponents (ie; 56). Here are examples of problems he is able to complete. Of course, he's not always 100% correct! Then again, neither am I.


Finally, I will spare you an example of the word problems we do, but they are generally a fun story with multiple math problems tied into it (ie; Four pirate ships sail out of the harbor with 6 pirates on each, how many...)

I know that problems like these are not kindergarten fare, and I know that some of them have not yet appeared in my 3rd grader's curriculum. What I do not know is what I have on my hands and/or if I should pursue additional testing to see where he is at, or even where to go to do so.

Candid opinion, advise, and ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards,

MadManMoon

My oldest turned 5 in December and I would say he is currently doing the types of problems that you have written above. My son is not even in K until this fall. Luckily he is in Montessori right now and although they allow some advanced math, he does much more math on his own at home. I can also relate to the asking for math problems all the time.

My son has been tested and has scores >99.9% in IQ and in achievement in Broad Math. IMO, based on your descriptions your son would definitely score in the HG+ range if testing.

You are indeed correct that this is more than 3rd grade math and in some instances material covered in much later grades.

I think that testing would be helpful to see what kind of accommodations are needed for your son. Is his current school providing more advanced math? Is he happy at school? How is his reading and language skills? Can you request testing from the school?

sounds like my DD8 who also tested 99.9 percentile. Testing would be good so you have a better idea of his learning needs. Oftentimes siblings are also gifted, but maybe your other child's giftedness manifests itself in a different way than math aptitude. You might think about having both of them evaluated for giftedness.

Neato

Not intending to hijack your thread, but I'm curious about the testing you all are referring to when you say your mathy kid scored 99.9th%. Are you refering to WISCIV or Achievement scores? My DS was doing similar things at that age but scored only 97th% on PRI w/ WISCIV. I had assumed this index assessed math ability but I read somewhere that algebraic ability was more involved w/ VCI rather than PRI. He also did not score well on arithmetic subtest of WISCIV (14) but his last 2 subtests were the lowest and I could definitely here that DS's perfectionism issues w/ math was causing him to answer cautiously. Psych also said DS was fatigued and he wished he had tested him over 2days. I suppose I will know more when DS takes WJIII Broad math subtests. Math is the one subject he constantly complains about is too easy so I expected that it would be his high area.

Dazey

Thank you all for the rapid reply. It is definitely helpful, and provides some insight. My biggest question is where would one find resources for testing children at this age? Which lends itself to the next question of what to do if it is determined that he has an aptitude for learning?


Not at this stage (kindergarten). We have been told that the 1st grade teacher that he has been assigned to does provide more advanced math for students that require it.


Absolutely. He had some boredom issues at the beginning of the year -- not disturbing anyone but daydreaming. Deep, deep daydreaming! After some time, he has since improved in this area and it is no longer an issue.


I would consider reading and language to be average, or slightly above. His teacher told us in December that he is one of only a few in his class that was able to complete the end of year assessment. Nonetheless, I do not feel that he is particularly advanced here. Kids learn at different rates, and I would anticipate that most of his classmates will soon catch up, some will not, and some will race past him.


My children attend a small Catholic school that, despite being private, operates under the area school district, so I would assume that we have access to everything the public school does. However, before doing so, I would prefer to go through the process independently.


Not at all. If he had, I probably wouldn't be here asking for information on resources . It's odd -- his older brother scored 90+ percentile in all areas of national assessment testing -- he's bright, but not a standout per se. He has always been very strong in reading/language skills, scoring 98+ percentile in testing. I suspect that he will be the kid who "has so much potential". He's very happy with "good enough". Which is exactly what I was like growing up.


While I truly appreciate your feedback, and I know that this is what the site is about, I am terribly uncomfortable with designating a child as "gifted". The implication being that the child is somehow blessed, given a gift from whatever supernatural being you believe in. Somehow superior to his/her peers -- when in fact they may have won just one of many prizes available in the DNA lottery.

The fact is that they are simply normal children, no different than their peers. While my son may have an aptitude for math/logic based skills, another child may have an aptitude for lightening quick thinking on a baseball field -- fielding a grounder, checking the runner at second and throwing to first to get the runner out. I am a software engineer, yet I am in awe of the man who raises my car up on a lift and is able to take the engine apart, fix it, put it back together, and have it running as good as new. In my view, that man is gifted. At least as much as you and I, or our children.

[steps down from soapbox...]

Hi MadManMoon,

Welcome. I hope you find some answers to help you and your son.


You may be able to get testing through your school or you could find a psychologist or diagnostician to give your child an achievement or IQ test. You could ask your school for a professional recommendation, inquire at your local university, or look in the yellow pages.


There is an abundance of resources available, many of which are discussed on this site. You may want to look through some of the threads with math titles to get a general idea of some of the more popular math resources.


Like you, many of us are uncomfortable with the term gifted. Unfortunately that is the term that was coined to describe a specific segment of the population- individual's in the top 3% of intellectal ability. We cannot seem to find a more appropriate, generally accepted term to describe this segment of the population so we continue to use the term gifted.


Though this would make life so much easier, this is not the case with gifted children. That is why so many of us have found our way to this forum. Gifted children are special needs children. The more extreme the giftedness, the more extreme the needs. These needs fall in the areas of academics, social, emotional and even spiritual. As a matter of fact, the needs of many gifted children are so extreme that their families are told by the public schools that the schools cannot meet the children's needs and they must find other ways to educate their children. If your son is as gifted as he appears by the description in your original post you will soon discover, if you have not already, that he does have special needs. Most people who participate in this forum do so to find the resources and support to enable them to meet their children's special needs.

madmanmoon,

Gifted is just a word. I'm sorry you have attatched such a negative connotation to it. I agree that many people are gifted in many different ways.
I respect your wishes not to have your children identified or lableled. To each his own.
I have had my children evaluated for giftedness and I am glad I did. Both of my children are at the extreme right of that bell curve, and have some special needs associated with the way their brain functions. There is no value judgement attatched with that, it's simply a fact. In the same way I would not ignore their learning needs if they were learning disabled, I will take into consideration everything I feel they need to develop into happy, healthy adults. Their extreme intelligence is simply a part of that package. I have never expressed, nor will I ever, that my kids are better than others. In fact, there are many times I felt things would be much, much easier for them if they were ND children.
You expressed that your children are happy and things are going well, I think that's great. Personally, I feel if it's not broke, don't fix it! But please do respect that in a lot of situations on this forum, things were not going well. We didn't push our children into IQ tests out of some elitist self-serving need to have our children labeled as better than another child.
Personally, my pediatrician referred my to the gifted psyd. for testing because at the time my DD8( who was 3) was saying some very unusual things. I was unnerved and scared. So my child led us to have her tested in her own way, just be being herself.

MadManMoon, here are some links you might be interested in:

http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/About_GDC/whytest.htm

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org (the hoagies site has an enormous wealth of information, including a state by state list of private testers http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/psychologists.htm , although they are by no means the only ones)

I agree with you 100% that the talents you listed--talent for fielding a grounder, putting a car together, etc.--are "gifts," and they are valuable! Everyone has gifts. Everyone!

But these gifts are different from being "intellectually gifted," which is the way the term "gifted" is generally applied in the field of education to kids who score in the top 5% or above (sometime top 2%, sometimes top 10%, sometimes other %s...) on IQ and/or achievement tests. Not everyone is intellectually gifted, by definition.

You don't have to love the term, I guess--though I have to admit that resistance always puzzles me, since it's a word with a very specific educational meaning that has nothing whatsoever to do with being better than others, nor do any of us involved in GT education think that it makes the kids better--but you probably do have to accept that it applies to your child.

GT kids just think differently, they learn differently, they need differently. A child in the middle of the Bell Curve simply doesn't beg for word problems at bedtime. That's just a fact.

As a side note, I attribute the all-too-frequent discomfort with the word "gifted" to be part of the same anti-elitist backlash that mostly eliminated grouping in schools--grouping (which is different from tracking, BTW) that helped ALL parts of the Bell Curve, not just the high-scoring tail. The result of this shift has been a woeful lack of attention for GT kids in most of the educational system in our country. So personally, I wish everyone in this country would stop reading more into the term "gifted" than is there, get over whatever semantic issues they have with the word, and just deal with the problem that is posed by systemically undereducating these kids.

I don't care if we call the kids "berdofpid" (or any other random collection of letters), as long as we provide a decent education for them!

Stepping down from *my* soapbox now. Who's claiming it next?

P.S. Testing is usually performed by psychologists. You can ask your school to refer you to someone--though you probably want to be sure that the person you choose has experience with testing GT kids and not just with testing kids for LDs. If you want to get a better idea of the extent of your child's abilities through the testing, then you need a tester who doesn't stop the test too early.

Hoagies has a list of experienced GT testers, and snowgirl linked you to it.

Some university psych departments offer testing for less $$$, but again, you want to be sure you're getting what you want/need from them. Inexperienced testers might not know how to get the fullest responses from a GT child, so you might not wind up learning very much.

Sidenote to Dottie: I went to the brink of insanity and back today, so I'm right there with you! It was a loooooooooooong weekend!

Ugh.

I'm two-for-two! Yahoo!

(That's about all that went right this weekend...)

At least I didn't get the speeding ticket I thought I was going to get...which would have made me run out of gas for sure...and made us late to the soccer game we had driven 3 hours to get to this morning...as my DS6 sat in the back seat saying "I TOLD you we should have gotten gas already!"

Like I said, to the brink and back...

I'll grab the soapbox for a couple minutes.
If a child is gifted athletically, would you do your best to expose the child to a variety of sports and find what really inspires the child?
If a child loves mechanical things, would you encourage him to explore the possibilities?
If a child loves to help others learn, would you encourage him to follow a teaching career?
If a child loves to learn, and learns quickly, would you discourage that ability?

I've got more, but the bottom line is we are not blowing out other kids candles to make our kids shine brighter. We're just giving our kids what they need to allow their candles to burn as bright as possible, and hope other parents do the same for their children. Keep in mind it's a whole lot easier in the American culture to provide a child with athletic opportunities than it is to provide a child with educational opportunities tailored to his specific needs. That's why this forum is so valuable.

Ah, OHG, well put! Really well written!

You might consider submitting that to Hoagies or someplace. I think more people should read that!

Hi, I am a Mom of DS5, he is currently in K. He excels in math (doing 4th grade math now). Your son is very good in math and my guess would be that he would for sure tested in 99%, probably higher.

Whatever you are doing is for sure working It's great that he is happy in school. Is his K half day or full day? How much is his teacher aware of his math abilities? K work is way too easy for him and he could use much challenging work. I would suggest Zaccaro book for elementary students.

It takes time to get used to the gifted label. I suggest reading Ruff's book. It explains quite well, how gifted children differ from other kids as well as each other. They really have different needs and smarter they are more difficult things get.

Hi Madmanmoon,

IQ & Ability testing are very useful to understand your child's strengths, weaknesses. It helped me understand my kids more thoroughly, rather than just instinctively. I encourage many people to do diagnostics on their kids, not just because they're showing great ability. Some parents wonder about learning styles or exceptionalities. It's just a tool and doesn't commit you to anything. We hired the district diagnostician who does private testing on the weekends for supplemental income.

Aside from the gifted label, do you have a goal if you were to test him? For instance, if you found he was 99.9% in math, what would you do about it? Would you try to get the school to give him advanced work? Subject skip? If you saw several strength areas, would you grade skip? Since he's new to school (which is a challenge in itself), he may not have any issues or problems now, but as time goes on, he probably will be bored to tears. Do you think it's right that he waits 4 more years to do math that he's able and anxious to do now? I would say that's tragic.

I think highly gifted kids are in need of "special education" as much as disabled kids. It means parents have their work cut out for them--I don't believe we are gleefully cheering how smart our kids are, but more searching tirelessly about how can we help them. There is a lot of research out there that indicates highly gifted kids are prone to depression (less so when they've been academically accelerated), higher high school drop out rate--we're being proactive in trying to make sure this doesn't happen to our kids and that they grow up to be happy, well-adjusted adults.

I understand the "if it's not broke, don't fix it" idea, but just be prepared that things might change.

I think Genius Denied is about PG kids. I think it's hard to find your child there. You can dismiss the book saying that you do NOT have a child like that, but you can easily see your child in Losing Our Mind. I don't like her LOG, but I still think it's an excellent and eye opening book when you are new to GT.

There is a nice book about math kids, Developing Math Talent A Guide for Educating Gifted And Advanced Learners in Math.

I think the baseball player is an apt analogy. I know some really amazing young players. They got so good that they cannot play in the local leagues, they're on some sort of all-star regional teams now. I think some parents would freak out if they played on the local team. With sports, there's a system in place. It's clear-cut who can advance to these better teams. It's purely skill-based. I would never ask one of these kids to play tee ball with kids his own age, if he could already throw 90 mph fastballs. Nor is is good for the other kids. It's not a big deal to have some sort of all-star academic type environments.

It shouldn't be a big deal, yet it seems to be.

Yes great analogy calizephyr!

To extend it further with real life incident....my son switched from recreational soccer to travel team soccer which is alot more work. He said he loved travel team soccer. I asked why. He said because the kids work hard, they really want to play, and they play much better. Also, you get to keep score and that makes it fun. In the regular league, while he wanted to learn plays and a position, the other kids weren't there yet in their skills. It wasn't fun being top dog. Now on travel team, he's average for ball skills but has his niche on defense which he naturally plays well. He has really rose to the occasion on travel team now that he's being challenged. Gee I wonder what he could do if the same thing happened in school?