I am really new to the tests used to evaluate our kiddos. DD7 had the WISC IV but I've seen many different ones listed here. What is the difference between them? Is the WISC IV a good test compared to others out there? Im just curious. Thanks!

That totally helped, Dottie, thanks! There's just so much information out there that it can be a bit overwhelming at times! If Im understanding correctly, the WISC IV has a ceiling of 160? Its interesting how different the tests can be. But I am glad to know that they gave dd a more current and widely used one. (WISC IV).

We may need to start a new discussion since now Im curious why the SB-LM is considered highly controversial...lol.

Got it.

DD scored 17's and 19's on 6 of the 10 subtests. (Funny, no 18's...just 17's and 19's) Her only area of weakness was coding and block design where she scored 13 and 10 respectively. I had posted this somewhere before but dd has always hated puzzles and so after the test she knew she didnt do well on that section and so when we got home she put some blocks together, drew the patterns on them and within a day she mastered block design! LOL! It doesn't matter now but Im curious how she'd score now that she has that down to a science?

Anyway, it all makes a bit more sense now. I can't tell you how helpful it has been to have this discussion board available!

She was given the WISC-IV

Do you mean the pre-test? She was given the Weschler abbreviated scale test before the full 2hr test was given. Is that what you mean?

To be honest, I'd have to go back in her paperwork to see what she was given. I dont remember seeing WAIT OR WJ on any paperwork sent home from the school but I'll go back and look. She has had a lot of testing done by the school, all of which I included in her application. Now Im curious if she had any achievement tests done.

Yes, we made the Nov 15th cutoff so at this point we are just waiting to hear back. Fingers crossed!

Our school district uses the RIAS (Reynolds Intellectual Assessment Scale). I'm just curious if anyone has knowledge of this one. I think the ceiling is 160 and was just curious how it compares with the others.

Some here have referred to the SAT...is that the same as the one given to HS students? I'm still learning, so bear with me!

My dd has had the WISC IV but that is the only formal testing she has had done (aside from assessments at school). What is the necessity of these other tests? What benefit is there in having multiple tests done?

Oh ok, thanks Dottie!

Just to support Dottie's point about achievement and IQ testing going hand in hand...

Dr. Amend actually recommended that we give DS6 another achievement test (he had one near the end of K to "diagnose" giftedness) at the end of this year of homeschooling to be sure that he's progressing at least a year for a year of school.

I'm not sure if we'll do it because of the cost and because I think there are other ways to check progress, but I see the value in it.

I agree with you that in my experience, it's the "brick and mortar" kids who are more likely to learn nothing in school. It only stands to reason: my home-schooled child has an IEP automatically!

To tell you the truth, I think I test him all the time--assuming testing is anything you do to see if a kid really "gets it." That's a big reason why I'm not fired up about doing another achievement test. I don't need to test him to see if he's advancing in math and reading and social studies--I know he is because I'm watching him do it. I even see the change in his handwriting and artwork. Down the line a bit, when I'm not having to be quite so hands-on with his education, I could see needing the testing. But I don't feel that it's a need right this second.

In our state (OH), we are required to give an end of the year test or else to have our home-schooling portfolio reviewed. We're going with the test because I want DS to have more test-taking practice and because it's less work for me. (Lazy mom...That should really be my screenname!)

I'm not sure what test I am required to give him, but obviously it's going to be some sort of grade-based achievement test. I don't expect it to go above grade level, so I don't think it will be very useful for my purposes. But you never know. Maybe they'll surprise me... (Not likely!)

Kriston-

You can administer an achievement test to your son right at home, with minimal cost. There are several different options, such as the WRAT, CAT5, and IOWA. My family uses the CAT just because it seems to address a wide array of skills for a relatively low investment. I believe we pay $40 per test, and we always order "up" a few years. I purchase the CAT through Family Learning Organization online, and the people there are very helpful and accommodating. Just FYI if you decide to go that route.

I have found the tests to be reassuring and also helpful in pointing out the occasional gap. For example, when one of my kids took the test normed for end of year kindergarteners, she scored in the 98th percentile overall, but we realized that she had no understanding of currency. We'd never thought to introduce her to coins and bills, and a kindergarten student is expected to know the various denominations and be able to count them a bit. We also learned through this same test that she could tell time at least to to the hour and half hour, although no effort had been made to teach her.

I do know unschoolers who don't do any testing and end up attending college and doing very well. It all depends upon what you are most comfortable with doing.

Okay, I'm new to this. We've been in Thailand for 8 years, and have homeschooled. Before we left, I knew that my 3 and 5 year olds were gifted. I myself was a gifted child, and my public school had a great program for gifted children.

My kids are now in 7th and 9th grade, a grade ahead for their age. Also, my 9th grader is taking 10th grade math, and my 7th grader is taking 9th grade math.

We've done the IOWA test every year, and they both score in the 98th percentile. Two years ago we did the aptitude test as well, and both scored in the 98th percentile.

Should I have them take any other tests while we are here in the States? Like the SAT, since they could take it at the local high school?

I would suggest that they both take the SAT or the ACT if it's convient. I would also consider giving them the same Iowa test they currently use, but up a few grade levels, so you can see what they "don't know." It's a good idea to know where they stand in relation to other kids so that as you look at Online, correspondence or University courses you have an idea of where to start them.

As they take classes the correspond to SAT II or AP classes, you will want to be able to document their work with those subject standardised tests as well.

Are you in the USA now? Returning to Thailand soon? Will you continue homeschooling? Are you doing all of the teaching or have they started to suppliment with outside resources?

Smiles,
Trinity

Does Lorel or anyone else know how/where to purchase the IOWA to administer at home?

Thanks,
Incog

You can get it from BJU Press. www.bjupress.com/services/testing
You must have a college degree in order to administer it to your own kids. Also, some state block certain grade levels. So you just have to check it out.

We're in the states right now, but will probably return to Thailand in 9 months to a year.

I am doing all the homeschooling, but am looking to see what resources there are in the community around me to get them involved. We've been back only a few weeks, and we started by joining the city athletic facility so they can learn some American sports and get more active--it's always hot in Bangkok, and they need to exercise more!

My daughter is studying piano, so I'm looking for a teacher for her here.

As far as academics go, I have them on a fairly strict curriculum path--Sophia (the 9th grader) is in her third year of Latin. She's doing geometry, biology--with labs and lab reports (Apologia)--and a literature program that is pretty demanding with writing literary analysis essays every week. Her history program is pretty standard. And then we do Wordly Wise, Building Thinking Skills (verbal and figural), Word Meanings, and stuff like that.

Matt, the 7th grader, is in his first year of Latin--an intro program. He's doing Algebra 1, a general science program with labs and lab reports (Apologia), Grammar and Lit, World History, and then all the extras like Wordly Wise, etc per above.

My biggest problem with him has been motivating him. He decided two years ago that all of life is heading towards death, that existence on earth is pretty meaningless, and so why bother? It's difficult to get him to read--books that were on his reading capability level bored him in terms of the topics and treatment of the topic. This year his reading level is up to adult level, and so he's beginning to read adult books which interest him more, but it's still very hard to find something that interests him.

In addition to being gifted, he's also "HSP"--a highly sensitive person. So much so that he prefers to be alone or with only one friend. Most of the kids his age bore him, so I'm having a hard time getting him to socialize with other kids. In Thailand, he and his sister have been very alone, so he's used to being withdrawn.

I'm also at a loss in terms of encouraging him career-wise. He's intelligent enough to do anything, but has so little interest in anything any more.

I even wonder if our return to Thailand (we're missionaries there) will be less than beneficial for him in particular. Sophia knows she wants to be a teacher and that she wants to go to Wheaton College. And she socializes with the college students at the Bible school where I teach. But Matt is really a loner there, and I don't feel that he has the opportunity to see many occupations that might stimulate interest. I really want to make the most of this year to figure out what is best for him.

Well, don't know if this made sense or not.

Thanks for listening!
Kathi

Hi Kathi,

This sounds somewhat like existential anxiety to me, but I'm not a psychologist. Exisential anxiety is not uncommon for highly intelligent kids, especially the young philosopher. I really don't have any good ideas for you except maybe google existential anxiety kids and see if the descriptions sound like your son.
You could find a child psychologist who tests for giftedness and is practiced in these types of issues. You mentioned your daughter would like to go to Wheaton college. If you live anywhere near Wheaton, I know a Psyd. that specializes in child/gifted and he is the best in the area. Feel free to private message me for his name.

Peace,
Incog

I completely agree about getting counseling for him. It may be overkill and it may not be necessary. But I have known a few HG teens who were struggling with the meaning of the existence, their parents chalked it up to typical teen angst and then the kids attempted suicide. I would definitely take the better safe than sorry approach. I would also choose a counselor very carefully--a gifted teen can smell condescension and pat answers a mile away. They need someone who can truly appreciate the despair they are feeling and take it seriously; if that counselor doesn't do this, then this will just prove to them that they are alone and adults can't be trusted.

You may want to consider looking at some of the existential philosophers who struggle with these same issues. I really liked a book called Irrational Man when I was struggling with the same stuff in college. Some of this stuff is pretty heavy though and it might backfire. So I probably wouldn't want to go there until he's in counseling.

Since you are missionaries, I wondered how faith fits into all this for him. Do you think he has a secure Christian faith that is supporting him through this or is he questioning some of what he has been taught? Because of who you are and what you do, is he finding this as a way of rebelling against his parents?

I was curious about why your kids have been very alone. I have friends who have spent a lot of time in Thailand and the kids have a lot of friends, both expats and Thai. I think they have gone to an international shcool so that has introduced them to a lot of people. I have heard that having even one or two good friends is very helpful to teens and significantly reduced the chances of a major psychologic event, so finding a way for him to make friends when you get back to Thailand seems really important.

These are just some ideas. Obviously, you have been doing the best you can for your kids under challenging circumstances. I wondered too if there have been other missionaries that have experienced a similar problem.

The kids have been alone because we were in a city in southern Thailand and there were no international schools. There were only a handful of other missionaries in the city, and none lived close to us. There were a total of 4 other missionary kids in the city, and we saw them from time to time, but not weekly. At one point, we all lived near each other, and the kids played together a few times a week--that was the best year or so for my kids. But then we all moved in different directions...

Matt has a strong faith. In fact, when he came to his conclusion of the "meaninglessness" of life, he began to say, "Why couldn't God just bring me home to Him now that I've accept Him?

I've tried explaining about God's plan for man and how man is to relate to the earth and to one another. And he accepts that for other people, but for himself, he says that he can't be bothered having to learn everything you need to learn to live in the adult world.

Honestly, I think a good deal of it comes from watching his dad--my husband has been having mental health issues, and we are in the process of getting it diagnosed (that's why we are back in the States this year). He is probably bi-polar, and when he is in the depressed state, he doesn't interact with us much. So I think sub-consciously Matt doesn't like what he sees of "adult life" in his dad. After my husband is diagnosed, then we're going to do some family counseling and individual counseling for the kids.

What good does it do to have a pschy. dr. diagnose him as "gifted?" He exhibits many signs--when he was 2 years old, the adults in the church nursery would spend the time talking with my son rather than watching the other kids, and they would tell me how much they enjoyed the conversations with him because he was so deep and philosophical, and it goes on from there--what will a diagnose do for us? When he was about a year old, and Sophia was 3, a friend was working at a pre-school for the gifted, and she said I should read some books about gifted children, as she observed my daughter was very much gifted like the children with whom she was working. I read several books, one of which was a woman's testimony of having been gifted and raising a gifted child. I cried as I read the book because it was like reading a story about my childhood. But I made it through without being clinically diagnosed. Albeit, my school system had a marvelous program for gifted children--in 7th grade thirty of us were separated out from the other 900 and we began high school curriculum, and the last two years of high school we took AP courses. So I was in a peer group just like me--we had similar interests, sense of humor, etc.

So I'm thinking that if I could find my son some friends who were gifted, or if I could get one of the college-age guys at the house of prayer here to hang with him...maybe that would help him. What would a doctor's diagnosis do for us?

Kathi
I am sorry you are going through such a rough time.

a doctors diagnosis will do nothing for your son. But a kind and wise therapist or counselor can do a great deal.
Existential depression is very real and can be devastating. In the accompaniment of heritable and or biochemically based depression as in the bipolar family of mood disorders it can be very serious indeed. If your son had cancer would you not get him treated?
Labeling your son will not help him you are right, but having a safe outlet to explore his feeling about the meaning of life, Gods expectations for him, and why sometimes life seems unbearably hard. you and your husband may not be the right "safe outlet" for him right now. Even the Christian community might not seem safe to him to be his honest self and express his feelings that might not be so pretty. Many PK and MKs have difficulties with needing to measure up to the expectations of the Christian communties that they live in. Being gifted with a dad with bipolar only amplifies it all the more.
That parable of the Talents is a heavy weight to many. I have always wondered what happened to the guy who tried to use his talents and lost them. and i have always been a little bit angry with God for not putting a fourth man in that story.

Being angry at God is not always tolerated in Christian communities. Your son may have feelings that he feels aren't Christian to have and aren't allowed. He may think he has to be perfect to be an adult and its just to hard to get there with all his imperfections. You never know.

Secular psychological professions are often hostile to faith systems. But there are many types of therapists out there that may help your son. In my opinion the important things are that they respect his faith, understand existential depression and have wisdom.

One group of professionals that might fit are Pastoral Counselors. They are trained in a faith tradition and also in psychological counseling. They can be very helpful.

I am making alot of assumptions here and i appologize if i am off base. But please consider if your son might be clinincally depressed and seek guidance.......
I will pray for you.

to the board -- I also appologize for getting more specifically religious that seems to be the norm accepted here. Faith communities can really hurt the gifted but they can be sources of great strength. There is existential depression but there is also existential joy.....

I just want to say that I agree with all of Confused's points. (Since confused's screen name tends to undermine her authority, I thought I should back her up LOL ) Even if we are making inaccurate assumptions, there are a number of red flags in the history you give and I would take it very seriously. Counseling in a safe place is important.

I was thinking about what you said, "In fact, when he came to his conclusion of the "meaninglessness" of life, he began to say, "Why couldn't God just bring me home to Him now that I've accepted Him?'" It started to make me nervous--this could be interpreted as a pre-suicidal thought. I don't know him and I don't know exactly what context it was said in. But in my line of work, I have been taught that it is better to overreact that underreact.

Thanks to all of you who answered. Your insights are good and helpful, helping give expression to concerns that have been in my heart and mind for the past year or so. I will have to try to find a good counselor in the Kansas City area who can draw him out--he doesn't want to open up to our family counselor (from our church).

I appreciate you all taking our faith into account.

Grace to you all,
Kathi

Hi Kathi,

I have a good friend who was a missionary in central america for several years. She had 2 school age children. The demands of her and her husband's work took so much of their time and the needs of the communities they were serving were so great and urgent, that they put their kids emotional needs on the back burner. I think it is an easy thing to do, especially when serving in a developing country. Don't stess about what you might have done--Just take the time you have now to relax, get back in synch with your family, and see what you can do to get them back on the right track.

Wow! I missed a lot in not reading this thread for a while. Kathi, I am so very sorry to hear about your son's current issues. I experienced a similar crisis as an adolescent, and it was a very difficult to come out of it. I absolutely think professional intervention is warranted. Be aware that kid's in this position often appear to "get better" for a while, only to dip even lower into despondency. Any regular contact with an adult mentor or older brother figure would also be helpful.

my prayers are with you-

Not that it makes much difference to my original post on testing, but I forgot to point out that my child was 3.5 when that kindy test was administered. That's the beauty of being able to order ala carte! You can get whatever level you like. It would be better for my asynchronous kids if we could order each subject individually, but I guess you can't have everything!