Am I the only one who finds that using reason with a toddler works? DD 23 months actually comes out of a meltdown when I explain the situation and emphasize with her perspective of disappointment. Isn't this exactly what we are told to NOT do?

Not necessarily. I *try* to do this with differently levels of success. It works more on DS5 than DS2. DS5 likes to have classic meltdowns and getting him to talk about his emotions and his feelings really works. There is a book that we have that goes into details on why this is a better approach (sorry! I don't have it handy and can't recall its name!) but it has to do more with getting kids to talk about their feelings. So you might hear me say things like...

"I see you're really upset"
"You're frustrated. I can understand that."
"Well I wish we could do X. But we can't. Makes me mad too."

etc. And then using that to open up a dialog to explain the situation. This maybe works with DS2 25% of the time and with DS5 50% of the time... though while DS5 is emotionally mature he's pretty darn intense so 50% of the time is not bad in my book.

That's not to say we don't also use stimulus/response approach a lot.

"Don't do X"
>>does X<<
"Don't do X"
>>does X<<
"Don't do X"
>>does X<<
"You're on restriction for the morning"

JB

Whatever works, use it! Some toddlers don't understand too much of an explanation. My dd2.3 does seem to appreciate an explanation at times but at other times she is beyond an explanation and can't stop crying to hear what I am saying. I have to be careful that I don't give her too much attention when she has a meltdown. It seems to feed into it and teaches her that if she throws a tantrum, she'll get my attention. I've started to just tell her that I can't understand her when she cries and whines and she'll need to use words (I say that even if I know exactly what she wants). She can communicate very well - I wouldn't take that approach if she wasn't able to communicate so well.

my kids responded that way, too. I think some people may have thought we were nuts, but it worked for us. Even if they didn't completely understand the explanation, I think the idea that there WAS an explanation made them feel less out of control. It's pretty scary to have your emotions completely spin out of control, and at least for my kids, it helped to hear that it was reasonable to have the emotion and that there was a reason for the frustrating situation. It also, I think, helped ME not feel upset, helped me empathize, and therefore prevented my frustration or upset feeding into a tense situation.

We did work hard on ds6 from about the age of 2 to develop emotional literacy - we noticed he really couldn't handle anger. We started with the 'when your tummy feels upset and your shoulders are tense and your face feels hot, that's probably anger you're feeling..." sort of things. He's fairly articulate now, though he doesn't always know what exactly is bothering him. My recently turned 3yo has trouble with anger, and we haven't worked with him on learning to articulate emotions just out of parental overload. He tends to be ok until suddenly BOOM, he loses it and has trouble hearing ANYthing. Note to self...must do better on that one. he clearly needs help noticing and soothing building frustration before it swamps him. He can take the explanation if it happens BEFORE he explodes. He can take it when upset, whining, but there is a point it's too late.

DD10 was the type of toddler that would comply only when I explained things to her. For example, at barely 2, she would ask for things at the grocery store. A simple "no" would lead to a tantrum. Once I explained to her that we only buy things that are on sale, so we can get more for our money. I'm not sure why I thought she would grasp the concept, but she did. From that day on, when she found something she wanted, she would ask me if the item was on sale. If I said "no", she was fine with it. Of course, certain things like apples and milk were always on sale:)

With DS3, I always explain that mommy can't hear whining and I pretend not to hear him. I also praise the "whine free" moments which makes a huge difference.

Jen

My mother always said that she felt kids deserved explanations. She said that regardless of whether they understood or not, taking time to explain meant that you believed they deserved respect and that you wouldn't just toss them around willy-nilly like you thought they were a sack of potatoes.

Of course, my mother only raised gifted kids, so maybe she had a skewed perspective. But she would maintain that all people should be treated like people regardless of their age or IQ.

I always reason with my DD and we have a 90% success rate. My Ped. was shocked with her communication skills (Talking in complete complicated sentences) and when our Ped. talked to me, she stated that I will probably not have the 'terrible' twos with my DD b/c I will be able to communicate with her. She was absolutely right. I have yet to have a tantrum (knock on wood).

I know the experts argue against reasoning with toddlers b/c the normal toddler is suppose to be like a neanderthal and only understands short responses, but ours (people on this board) are not the norm and our Ped. picked up on it right away and made that connection.

Our DS (now 13) was just fine at 2--no problems. But then 4 hit very hard. He could throw all those years of listening to me reason back at me with full force. He spoke in long complicated sentences, used the tone I used with him, but (being only 4) didn't actually make any sense. Then I would explain back to him why he didn't make sense and he would explain back to me that he was right and then he would start to shout and then I would start to shout and then we both broke down in tantrums. He was a master at bringing me to his level!

Not sure if that is your future, but in case it is, I just thought I'd warn you. LOL.

After 5, though, we have basically done really well with having thoughtful discussions. Even at 13, we do OK at least 80% of the time.

Same experience here, Katelyn'sMom. I always said he deserved an explanation before any request/order - you have to do x because, never because I said so. And he complied. Never had tantrums. But then again, that's probably him. Had meltdowns - but they were related to unmet sensory issues we didn't know about at the time (noise, smells, uncomfortable clothing, etc.) and happened mostly when he was tired or hungry and just couldn't cope with whatever it was that he found distressing.

We used reasoning, but also used the "if...Then" principle.

Ex: If you put the book away, then you can help me cook.

We tried to use this in away that taught sequencing of events, responsibity, and useful skills.

It was not bribery. "If you put the book away, I will give you candy."

My dds liked to have feelings acknowleged ad even to know that you have feelings too. I remember one day, DD7, then 2 wanted to go outside to play and it was really rainy and cold. After explaining to her the "why", we both laid on the floor and hid our faces until she said, "I will get a book, Mommy!" It was a great day where we were able to come up with lots of alternative things to do!

yes, we did (and still do)..... but sometimes we have to have "Mommy law". That's when I just laid down the law.... "It's a dictatorship, and I'm the dictator! Luckily I am a benevolent dictator........ Now do what I tell ya kid, and for the umteeth time..........GO BRUSH YOUR TEETH!"

I agree. I discovered with DS7 when he was 8mos. old that if he understood a rule, he would follow it. He almost never tantrumed, and if he did, it was because he was frustrated that his body wasn't doing what he wanted it to do. Timeouts for him consisted of holding him close until he calmed down and then helping him as needed. Even now, he pretty much only throws tantrums when he's hungry and/or frustrated that he can't perform as he envisions.

I have a hard time being mad about that.

OTOH, DS4 is a totally different personality type, and reason is much less successful with him. He tantrums often and in order to get his way, and usually without even telling me what he wants before he falls apart. It's extremely frustrating and wearing to me. He's also the kid who is now lying and cheating to get what he wants. Obviously the tantrums didn't work, so he's trying another tack.

I think a lot has to do with both intelligence and personality type. In my experience, talking logic with an emotional kid is like speaking Mandarin to a white-bread-and-mayo midwesterner. The message just doesn't get through. Child #2 has been a LOT more trying for DH and I than child #1. But then, DH, DS7 and I are all Spock clones. We speak the same language.

I know that my mom felt I was very trying, and she's highly emotional like DS4. She and I have always had trouble with misunderstanding one another.

What comes around goes around, huh? :p

I was lucky to see my fabulous cousin interact with her 4 kids when DS was an infant. DH and I marveled at how well behaved the kids were, and how my cousin would not just say "no" - she'd give an explanation. We tried to do that to, and it worked wonderfully. We noticed that if we were rushed and did not explain, big fits would follow.

And because of early communication, we didn't have the terrible twos at all, but 3 and 4 had some fantastic tantrums when he didn't get what he wanted! They are getting fewer and further between, but we still get some doozies, and they're almost always in public.

Yes, we had the terrible 1s (when DS7 wasn't yet very skilled at telling us what he needed) and the terrible 3.5-4.5s. The twos were mostly a dream!

With DS4, not much has been a dream...Though he's also much more cuddly and affectionate than DS7, and I describe him as "sunshine on a stick" when he's happy. He lights up a room like no other kid I've ever seen! his pre-K teachers noticed it, too. Very extreme: extremely happy or extremely unhappy, swinging on a moment's notice from one to another, with nothing much in between. When he was a toddler, DH and I used to call him "bipolar baby," actually.

(No offense intended to anyone suffering from the real thing, of course.)

We take the good with the bad, I suppose...

LOL, I hear you and have been very aware of the next stage and am curious about how my DD will be. My friends have wished the terrible twos on me b/c I have always made statements about how much I love them at that stage, so it is safe to say that my friends are holding a grudge against me. :P

I always talk about 2 year olds need to assert independence at this time and I know this is common knowledge, but in the middle of the situation do people remember this? I don't think one of my friends does. It also means, as I say to my husband, pick your battles. Exploring the lights is not really worth getting into an argument and enforcing a timeout. (I know you all are probably thinking my kid is super spoiled little brat, but she really isn't. She uses her manners and says please, thank you, etc.)

So I am a little more laid back on things, but to be fair, I was never a baby talking hold on tight kind of mama. You know the type: IE. baby walking or running in the house slips and falls on his/her knees or butt but not hit his/her head; mama sucks in her breath jumps up and runs to the aid of her baby. That is just not me. My response? Nothing, unless she is crying then I know she is hurt and that gets a simple acknowledgment and kiss.

My favorite was a few months back. DD was in her big girl bed for a nap and I hear a THUMP and then a pause and she starts to cry. So instantly I knew she fell off the bed so I ran up the stairs to check on her. When I opened the door she cried even louder and said "I fell off and hit my head". I really REALLY wanted to say "Mama called the doctor and the doctor said" .... but I was good, however while talking to her it was VERY singsongish. So I held her and asked DD were you jumping on the bed? She stopped crying instantly and said yes in a low voice. That was it. She knew what she did was wrong and she had paid the highest consequences. She seemed to have accepted the bump on her head as the punishment with me not having to say anything. And ever sense that day (Knocking on a serious log of wood) she has not attempted to jump on her bed.

I wish Mr W would use reason with us. It is very frustrating when he is upset about something and we don't know what it is.

That's where we're at with DS4, Austin. When he cries BEFORE he asks for anything, it's hard to help him. Mindreader, I ain't!

You mean you haven't taken the mind reading class yet? Around here they offer it right along side baby 101 and breastfeeding.

What worked for us was just a firm, silent hug until the sobbing subsided. Once he calmed down, we could talk. If I spoke before he was calm, that pretty much derailed the whole process.

This may also work with a 13 year old (but never in public), but whether or not it works would be information that I am not allowed to disclose--sworn to secrecy. LOL.

That is DS6, exactly and he's still like that- he's either bouncing off the walls in happiness and the sheer joy of being alive or lying in a heap on the floor screaming with the fiery rage of 1000 suns. And he's loud about everything, he doesn't have a normal tone of voice, everything is done very loudly.

But for the OP, we do use reason with our kids, especially the toddlers. I give short explinations because I truly believe that if kids understand the rules, it makes it easier to follow them. My kids have a "BS" sensor that goes off whenever DH or I make up non-sense rules and they always call us on it. I'm not afraid to use "Because I'm your mother and I say so" (actually it's usually "I've given you my reason, I'm not explaining it again, if you continue to argue xyz will happen"), but only when we're locked in a battle of wills and they're arguing not because they don't understand, but because they don't like the answer.

The boys (DS4 and DS6) seemed to need less reasoning as toddlers, they heard the explination one time, the consequence for not obeying and that was all they needed. DD2 will usually only obey if I explain (again) why she can't do whatever. But, once I tell her she usually simply says "Oh, ok" and then complies.

I laugh, but only because I know that if we don't laugh, we must cry over this.

But, yes, logic is still useful in the right context, even with these kids. Natural consequences, firm boundaries, clear explanations, etc. are all that stand between me and insanity some days, I suspect...

Wow. What an interesting discussion.

I was surprised when logic worked on a meltdown, since I tried it as a last resort.

Okay, just want to note here that I am now terrified of age 4, which has always been my favorite age for kids. LOL

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...

I had been and still am quite fond of 4 in *other* people's children. It was just that when my DS was 4, he definitely targeted me as the reason for all his woes. He was fine with everyone else. He was realizing that I wasn't omnipotent and he resented that. I remember one particularly breakdown that occured when I "refused" to put back together a potato chip that had fallen on the floor and been stepped on. He kept screaming, "put it back to together" and pounding me with his little fists . We went in to time out. I went with him because it was a very public place he continued to hit me in time out. DH got free from what he as doing and came to help. As I left, DS became all smiles and within seconds after I left, he was fine and rejoined the party. There is no doubt in my mind that this was personal--it was all about me!