We just got test scores in today and I could use some input on them. What do you make of her scores in working memory and digit span? She does have ADHD and is on medication for it. Is that what I'm seeing with those scores?

Full Scale -131
General Ability Index- 143
Verbal Comprehension- 134
Perceptua Reasoning- 137
Working Memory- 102 (not a typo)
Processing Speed- 115

Similarities- 17
Vocabulary - 14
Comprehension - 16
Block Design- 13
Picture Concepts- 17
Matrix Reasoning- 18
Digit Span - 8 (also not a typo)
Letter-Number Sequencing - 13
Coding - 13
Symbol Search - 12

Lol to not a typo...my guess is that without the medications her WM score would be worse. You ve got an unusually gifted girl there with very significant bottlenecks.

My guess is that you think of her ADHD as mild. It is probably severe but she is compensating with her GAI strength. She probably also doesn't get much recognition for her giftedness at school and is treated as mildly gifted if at all but you see a kid with very advanced thinking skills partticularly abstract reasoning and big picture vision...2 qualities that are totally off the radar in most elementary schools.

Anyway. U aren't Crazy. Pull up some virtual wall and we can bang our heards aggainst it together....ok?

Grinity

You're daughter's scores are similar to my DD9's (when tested at 7.5yrs). Her FSIQ was 132, GAI was somewhere between 148-152 and her working memory was only in the 34%ile (can't remember score... high 80's maybe?). And she WAS medicated! For us, it highlighted exactly how much she struggles to get her smarts out on a daily basis. In the past year, we have pursued further testing and she has been identified as having dyslexia and dysgraphia. The initial IQ and achievement testing left us wondering why she was struggling so much and we are glad that we kept pushing for further testing.

I think that her low digit span would be in keeping with a 'relatively' lower working memory. My DD struggles to keep anything in her brain for more than 30 seconds. She can do it when she tries really hard (as she obviously did on the day of testing), but she chooses not to use that kind of concentration on a daily basis.

I agree with Grinity that their abilities often hide so many of their weaknesses. On the same thought, their weaknesses often hide their abilities! For all the world, my DD looks like an average grade 4 student. She pulls in straight B's with a few A's. I think many would consider us insane if we told them her IQ scores. It just isn't that visible because she is compensating for her severe disabilities (which in turn present as mild because she is doing such a good job compensating).

IQ scores are a good place to start. Do you have any concerns about your daughter's school performance?

I looked back through old posts after I posted, and saw that your school has a full time gifted program, and in the fall your dd was struggling to keep up....is that right? have things shifted at all?

Can you pinpoint what sorts of things make it hard for her to keep up with the kids in the gifted program? Have you been able to observe the room in action?

Smiles,
Grinity

"She probably also doesn't get much recognition for her giftedness at school and is treated as mildly gifted if at all but you see a kid with very advanced thinking skills partticularly abstract reasoning and big picture vision...2 qualities that are totally off the radar in most elementary schools"

Grinity you hit the nail on the head. It's so frustrating how they just don't see her. We're fighting to get her into the gifted program because she isn't scoring out well enough on their intelectual checklist scale. Basically they're saying she doesn't act gifted enough. Which is ridiculous.

Things at school have improved since she started taking medication for her ADHD. Shes completing assignments on time and actively participating in class now.

Keep fighting - hopefully these scores will make that fight easier.
I'm so glad to hear that the medication is helping her, and, I'll bet helping her feel more comfortable in her own skin.

Look up 'Slow Cognitive Tempo' subtype of ADHDI

How do I know all this? It's a whole lot easier when DS is 15 instead of 5, and able to finally strut his stuff instead of falling all over himself.

sigh

Grinity

morgans-mommy-

I have a daughter whose scores are somewhat similar (digit span 7, lns 7, arithmetic 16). Her VCI was 140, PRI 131, WMI 83 (!) and PSI 121. Our daughter's GAIs are both 143.

I have been told she does not have ADHD, but I am not entirely convinced. I think she may have a "touch" of ADHD, but I think her true WM is somewhere in between the 7 and the 16 of her arithmetic score. She does much better remembering material that is meaningful to her, and she does much better remembering things if she sees them versus hearing them.

Did your tester give that supplemental arithmentic test? Just curious. In any event, just b/c your child has ADHD, that is no reason to not address her giftedness. Good luck with your fight to get your daughter services. She sounds like she definitely needs and deserves them!

I spoke with our tester today and he feels we should give her a few more subtests to make certain her current scores are valid. He feels she had a lot of scatter in some areas. I agree with him. I believe he mentioned one in arithmetic, one on information and there was one more I don't remember. Well be going next week Tuesday for those tests as well as achievement testing. Wish us luck!

Good luck. Let us know how you make out with that. I will be interested to hear what the results are and how the tester interprets things.

Is that my dd you are describing as well -- lol?!

It is my private hunch that pg women with adhd outreproduce pg women who aren't 2e....therefore that will describe a lot of our kids. It really says much more about the training of our teachers than it does about our kids.

Smiles
Grinity

I actually don't think that I am 2e FWIW, though. I have a touch of SPD like dd13, but not a major issue. Dd11's ADD, etc. seem to stem more from dh than me.

And I am NOT pg!! Maybe mg? And DH has the ADD. I have the OCD.
:-)

Oh, I should have specified that too! I, too, am not PG. I'm more in the MG- maybe HG area depending on how one defines that.

Thats my DD described there too. And wow Grinity that's a pretty interesting thought. Part of the last year I have spent coming to understand my own level of 2e-ness as I learn about my kids. I am also not PG, or if I am it's with the radically spiky profile of the 2e, and major, MAJOR under achievement... The thing that is most interesting about this to me is that as a 2e person myself I feel so ill equipped to deal with the demands of raising 3 gifted kids - one MG with major other Es, one HG/PG with some mild other Es by the looks and one that's too young to tell but keeps me REALLY busy. I am so often utterly overwhelmed by the sensory overload produced by three chaos monkeys and by the fact that I NEED order but simply cannot maintain it...

Ok. I have the updated WISC scores (tester went back and did additional sub-tests)in along with achievement testing. I'm not sure what to make of the WIAT scores other than maybe she had a bad day? Any input is appreciated.

Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children - Fourth Edition (WISC-IV)
(Mean = 100, Standard Deviation = 15)

Scale/Composite Standard Score Qualitative Description
Full Scale 141 Very Superior
General Ability Index (GIA) 148 Very Superior
Verbal Comprehension 142 Very Superior
Perceptual Reasoning 147 Very Superior
Working Memory 107 Average
Processing Speed 121 Superior

Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children - Fourth Edition (WISC-IV)
(Mean = 10, Standard Deviation = 3)

Subtest Scaled Score
Similarities 17
Vocabulary 14
Comprehension 16
Information 16
Word Reasoning 16
Block Design 13
Picture Concepts 17
Matrix Reasoning 18
Picture Completion 15
Digit Span 8
Letter-Number Sequencing 13
Arithmetic 10
Coding 13
Symbol Search 12
Cancellation 10


Wechsler Individual Achievement Test-Third Edition (WIAT-III)

Composite Standard Score Percentile Qualitative Description
Total Achievement 129 97 Above Average
Oral Language 123 94 Above Average
Total Reading 133 99 Superior
Basic Reading 139 99 Superior
Written Expression 128 97 Above Average
Mathematics 109 73 Average
Math Fluency 93 32 Average

Subtest Standard Score Percentile
Listening Comprehension 114 82
Early Reading Skills 112 79
Reading Comprehension 130 98
Math Problem Solving 106 66
Alphabet Writing Fluency 115 84
Sentence Composition 125 95
Word Reading 137 99
Pseudoword Decoding 127 96
Numerical Operations 110 75
Oral Expression 125 95
Oral Reading Fluency 130 98
Spelling 127 96
Math Fluency-Addition 87 19
Math Fluency-Subtraction 98 45

What does the tester think about the difference between the WISC and WIAT scores. My DS had very similar differences and that is what led to his diagnosis of stealth dyslexia. He was even diagnosed with dyscalculia even though he is in the highest math group his school offers (and making 98s, 99s and 100s without difficulty). It just makes you wonder what these 2e children could do if it weren't for that 2nd e.

I sent the tester an e-mail to see if he has any theories on the discrepancy in the test scores. We'll see what he says. I am wondering would the ADHD lower the WIAT scores like that? The WIAT testing was done on a different day than the WISC. Actually it was done over a two day period. The tester stopped the test early the first day because she was getting tired.

DS9 did his testing (WISC and WIAT) in 3 sessions over a couple of weeks. The neuropsychologist that did his testing said that when looking at the WIAT scores in comparison to the GAI, any difference of more than 15 points is most likely due to a learning disability. In fact, I think that is what the educational system uses to define a learning disability. In our state, the difference has to be 30 points in high school, but only 15 points in elementary school.

Is it possible that ADHD is the only thing getting in the way here? I'm not sure. Possibly? I ended up having someone from a local school for dyslexic children look over DS9's test results. She poured over all the details, looked at his written answers and ultimately made the dyslexia diagnosis. I was floored because he reads well above grade level. But once I started researching stealth dyslexia, it described him perfectly. I'm not trying to suggest that that is what is going on with your child, just suggesting that you make sure you get the answers you are looking for because I don't think it is "normal" to have such a discrepancy between WISC and WIAT.

I'm not familiar with the WIAT, so I can't help you with specific questions, but fwiw my ds12 has LDs and his scores jump around quite a bit on individual achievement tests (WJ-III) in spite of the fact that he performs extremely well at school. What helped me understand his achievement test results was to look at the specifics of what each subtest measures and how the test is administered - for example, on the WJ-III some subtests are administered by giving an oral prompt, some require reading etc. Some subtests are timed, some are not. Some subtests require a written response, some require an oral response. When I made a chart and grouped subtest score vs response type or prompt type etc, very clear patterns emerged that make sense with respect to his LD.

Just looking briefly at the scores you've posted, most of them seem really a-ok, with math computation possibly an area of weakness. I suspect that any test labelled "fluency" involves a timed component, and when you see a lower score in a timed test with a kid it's quite possible that the reason for the lower score is simply because the test is timed and has nothing to do with the child's mastery of the subject. There can be many reasons that any of the test scores are unexpectedly low, including the timed test. I'd suspect ADHD could make it difficult to finish a test in a given period of time; my ds doesn't have ADHD but the act of handwriting causes him to have a challenge with timed tests.

You should be able to get clarification from your tester - but in the meantime, it might also help to try to google around and find a list detailing what the specifics of each WIAT test are.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Here is the tester's response.

Overall, even though the numbers look different, she only displayed a significant difference in one core area: math. Although her score's are different from what would be expected given her ability it is not abnormal. Very rarely do you see someone who excels in every area. Similar to her cognitive abilities she has areas where she excels and areas where she is average (working memory- 107). The fluency is really where she struggled in that it was not automatic, she had to sit and think about the answers often using her fingers. Using fingers is not a bad thing, because over time we expect it to fade as she places calculations into memory for immediate recall. She displayed similar core abilities in math (problem solving 106- numeric operations-110); which are in the high end of the average range. I would still expect her do be able to handle the workload of the gifted program in math. As the math becomes more fluent, which it will, she will be fine.


She also displayed a discrepancy on a subtest -Early Reading Skills (standard score 112), but not overall reading ability. Early reading skills are the ability to understand and identify rhymes or sounds within words. When i gave the test i was surprised with the results. She only missed two questions, but they were questions I would have expected her to get correct. She missed both questions where she was asked to identify the second sound of a word, for example (FLAG, FROG, FREEZE); she picked flag and freeze. After the subtest was over i went back to see if it was a mistake or did not understand the directions (even though an example is given before the question) and she still missed it. I would not be overly concerned.

Dottie, I have no idea how to figure scores aside from the GAI so I'll have to take your word on the VCI. I thought her scores jumped quite a bit as well. I will have the tester double check his numbers. The report he gave me was just preliminary numbers, not a full report. Maybe there was an error in his calculations? As far as the substitutions. He said "Giving the additional subtests is justified since there is a large discrepancy in her scores (the original ones I assume). Again, I'm just going off what he said.

"I do know quite a few more "verbal only" gifted types, who excel in language arts but are really struggling in classes like honors physics and AP calculus. Not that I expect your daughter to be one of those!" LOL! Dottie she may very well end up being one of those because that description fits me to a T!

Dottie, do you know if Aimee Yermish does consults for kids using previous test scores? I'd love to have her input on this, but can't afford to have her do testing.

morgans-mommy, Aimee Yermish is also a member of the board. You may want to send her a private message and ask .. just a thought.

Sheila

I know for a fact that she does.

Please forgive any newbie mistakes, I just found this site and am not an experienced poster. Our 9 YO has scores that are not so different, at least in terms of being all over the place, note the processing speed.

WSIC-IV Verbal Reasoning 148; Perceptual Reasoning 137, Working Memory 116, Processing Speed 94 and GAI 153.

Similarities 19
Vocabulary 19
Comprehansion 16

Block design 12 (mixed up the colors, but got pattern right I think)
Picture concepts 17
matrix reasoning 19
Digit span 12
letter-number sequencing 14

Coding 10
Symbol search 8

They say that she has mild ADD. She does not take medication. I don't know what to make of any of this, but offer this information for what it may be worth.