DS2 was tested at age 5(K) by his school to see if he was eligible for the gifted program. He is now 6 and in his first week of first grade.

I received the following message - which I believe to be a fairly typical response from schools:

"...students must have high achievement scores (NWEA test results) and have a Full Scale percentile within the top 2 percentile on our standardized intelligence test. The standardized intelligence test measures a combination of both verbal and nonverbal abilities and calculates a Full Scale percentile based on those two measurements.

Using the criteria mentioned above as well as the parent and teacher input forms, it has been determined that your child is not eligible for High Potential Services. All scores are given in age-normed National Percentile Ranks."

I am a bit surprised that he didn't qualify - his NWEA scores are at the top and he certainly presents as gifted to me.(I'm basing this on spending 13 years with his PG brother and having obtained the Ph.D. in gifted behavior that we all get as we attempt to understand and gain support for our children so that they may have the educational services they deserve.) I wrote back to ask which specific I.Q. test was given and was told the following (which I don't think is typical, but maybe it is?):

"(-School District Name- Assessment for Gifted Students Intelligence Test" "...which are our own standardized and nationally normed tests. We do not accept outside testing."

Aren't there standard IQ tests? Can one just decide their test is an IQ test?

I'm a bit confused. My older son was home schooled until recently and has only taken Explore, ACT, SAT tests. He's never had an IQ test, so I have no experience with this type of testing. I see everyone discuss the tests their children have taken and I don't think I've ever seen anyone report a school specific test. It's always WISC-II or other similar IQ tests.

Any suggestions on how to proceed?

Thank you so much for reading this far. Looking forward to any help y'all can provide.

Hmmm. I would be suspicious that the school test is really an "IQ" test. It might be some sort of aptitude test that they've created. I would be especially curious about how they got age-normed national percentile ranks if it's a test of their own. Was your DS administered the test individually, or in a group? From my very limited understanding of the common IQ tests, you must be qualified to give them (e.g., be a psychologist with specialized training).

Is there any other opportunity for your DS to get into the GT program, or do they only test in K? What would be the benefit of the GT program (what would you be fighting for, and would it be enough anyway)? Is he not getting his educational needs met? I guess I'd work from that angle first. (I.e., if your son needs more challenge, will the school respond and give appropriate work, regardless of whether your DS is ID'd as GT.)

Well that sounds fairly iffy to me. I'm a trouble maker, but I think that I'd be requesting a meeting with the district GT coordinator in which I'd go in armed with whatever data you do have and ask for research that shows that the district "assessment for gifted students intelligence test" has been proven to be a reliable and valid test of intelligence.

Specifically, I'd like to see proof of convergent construct validity (the extent to which this test's scores correlate with the scores obtained on other valid measures of intelligence such as the WISC or SB). Face validity alone wouldn't do it for me and I also wouldn't accept content validity if the only people who were involved as experts speaking to the test looking for giftedness were educators. I'd want to see psychometricians involved in assessing content validity if that's the form they're claiming.

I doubt that you live anywhere near me, but I took tons of statistics classes in grad school and also have some experience with getting a district to change their GT identification procedures that excluded individual IQ tests (but no longer do). If you were close, I'd offer to come with you to add support.

I agree with the above. Standardizing a test is not an easy thing to do. I've never heard of a school district standardizing an IQ test. By the time they finished standardizing the test using US census statistics, establishing reliability, developing norms, etc., the test likely would have been nearly outdated! If you feel strongly that your child should be eligible for the program, I would considering asking for a WISC, KABC, Stanford Binet, or other well established standardized intelligence test. Good luck!

Welcome!
Is the GT program 30 minutes a week or an all day thing. If it's an all day thing, then it's worth fighting for. If it's 30 minutes a week, back up and start advocating for your child's needs to be met all week long.

I think it's much easier to laser beam focus on your child's needs then to try and 'prove' that he's gifted. Afterall - everyone defines gifted in their own way, so you'll never 'outlogic' them. I could create a program for kids who can touch their noses with their tongues, and no one could say 'Boo.' Sorry for all those short tongued folks.

So I would go to the school with concrete observations about what's going on that makes you worry that not being included in the GT program is a problem for your particular kid.

School like to help kids. Schools like to be the authority. Ask for you kid to be grouped for instruction with other kids with the same MAP scores....that should do it.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Thank you all for responding so quickly!

@ SPG: Well, I guess technically they call it an "Assessment for Gifted Students Intelligence Test," not necessarily an "IQ" test. But yes, it sounded mighty fishy to me too. I don't know if he was tested in a group or not. I assumed it was individual but perhaps not. It wasn't administered by a psychologist. No, he isn't being challenged. He wasn't challenged in K either but he only attended 2 1/2 hours so it didn't seem so dire at the time. I'm not sure how they'll work with me since school just started.

In first grade, it would be limited pull out services. I don't anticipate him being challenged in his current situation. In second grade and beyond, however, there is the potential for all day gifted. IF he qualifies, using their "test."

@Cricket: Yes! I can be a bit of trouble maker too. Trying to keep my own wretched school experience from coloring my attempts to advocate for my children is a constant struggle. I also question and wonder about their "national norm" claims. Especially since they won't accept outside testing. I'm in Minnesota, sadly - not close enough to you. Thank you for the kind and generous offer.

@Mcchanceny: That's what I thought. Thank you for helping me realize I wasn't nuts for thinking that too.

@Grinty: I agree. I'm worried about his needs - not the label. I only need him to be classified as gifted for the services. I don't want him stuck relearning the K curriculum that he mastered about 2 years before K started. Last year his half day K teacher told me 6 weeks into the school year that he wouldn't be challenged or learn anything and declared him the smartest student in the class. I love your idea about grouping him with his NWEA peers. I had not thought to ask for that - thank you for suggesting it.

My older ds(13) is much more verbal and outspoken. He was debating his 1st grade teacher-on the first day of school-about a 3 letter word he picked to rhyme with cat. The teacher told him it wasn't a word. By pick-up time he was livid and threatening to bring a dictionary to prove him wrong. He dropped out of school after 2nd grade and stayed home until last year when he started HS at 12. My younger son, on the other hand, is the shy, quiet, somewhat anxious, dreamy type who just shuts down, tunes out, and stops working. Those still waters of his run deep. He isn't one to make trouble (yet) or "show" what he knows. He doesn't like to be singled out. He won't ask for more or different. He will check out books he was reading at age 3 or 4 rather than request books at his actual reading level. Last year his NWEA scores dipped a bit in the Spring after his teacher told everyone to "Go slow. Take your time." He took her literally and slowed down so much he nearly didn't complete the test. He also got quieter and more withdrawn as the school year went on and stopped finishing his work. I mean really, how many times can he be expected to cut and paste a picture of a cat and the letters C A T. I'd have poked my eyes out with my blunt cut scissors!

Thank you all for listening and offering all the good advice. I really appreciate everyone's wisdom and experience.

And my guess is that you wish you had pulled DS13 sooner, right?
Good thing DS13 was born first...otherwise imagine!

So you can't rely on DSyounger to speak up - that means you have to speak up for him, right? Gradeskip is one way to keep a 'fading into the background' kind of kid up against the proper 'background' - although I'm wondering if homeschooling his is a possibility. Keep reminding them that NWEA's MAP is all about figuring out what a child is ready to learn next, and keep asking them to place him with other kids of similar readiness levels - don't worry about the age of those other kids.

((Hugs))
grinity

However, do you think that you would get a school district to agree to grade skip a child who they can't even accept to be gifted?

Yes, Grinity - I DO wish I'd had pulled DS1 sooner, or never even sent him in the first place. Thank goodness he came first!

No, DS2 likely won't be speaking up to anyone other than me, it seems. I do remember him telling me in K that he was an okay speller, yet fretting that he couldn't spell spherical. Not that anyone had asked him to spell that particular word.

I wil be his voice and speak up for him. I do like the idea of a grade skip. (We skipped his brother 2 years but that was after 4 years at home. By that time we had SAT scores of 2,000, invitations to SET, etc., in our back pocket. We also enrolled him in a very small private school that awarded him a scholarship and was open to the idea of having him there. I don't think any area public school HS would have allowed him to do that.) This school doesn't appear to be too acceleration friendly. Heck, they won't even allow him to do weekly pull-outs and didn't place him in the 1st grade class with the brightest students from his K class. I feel as if I need an outside assessment just to "prove" to them that he is capable of the work. But since they don't accept them, what's the point?

I will start by trying to get him placed with his NWEA peers and see how that goes first, I guess. The new scores for this year should be available in 4 to 6 weeks.

There are 2 or 3 other school districts in the area that also have full-time gifted programs that begin in 2nd grade. We are already open-enrolled in this current district (due to their gifted-friendly reputation) so I'm used to driving an hour or more each day. He seems to enjoy the idea of school and wants to go (at this point). I am open to homeschooling again, if need be. Sheesh! It really shouldn't be this difficult.

Thanks for listening! I guess I needed a safe place to vent. I'm so glad this forum is here for all the wonderful guidance and comfort it provides.

I'm thinking they wouldn't even entertain the idea. I wonder if I presented it as a "temporary" trial-run, they'd be more open to it? Start it now and let it go until the new NWEA scores come out. See what everything looks like at that point in time?

I feel so defeated already and the school year just started. Ugh.

Bug-House, you ain't the only one! I have been fighting the school with my 2nd child, and my 3rd is languishing. Last year in second grade, she scored 2 points below - TWO POINTS BELOW - the NWEA level for math. Her teacher bugged and bugged the gifted program. DD taught math to her class all year.

Well, how are you supposed to test on harder math that you haven't been taught? Of course she didn't test there this year either.

We were looking at the "Colorado Growth Model" scoring for our district. Her school is at the 13th percentile for Colorado schools helping girls to move ahead in their math scores.

DD's new teacher told us they will challenge her during "math RTI" time. Thursday I picked her up during this time - it's the last 1/2 hour of the day - and they were cleaning out their desks. I asked her what they did for the last 1/2 hour on Friday, and she said they had an extra recess.

Trial - run is a great idea.
Also start practicing to translate your ideas into 'school-speak' -
They want to know any signs that he is unhappy and suffering socially -
So talking about his worry over and self blame over not being able to spell spherical might be a good one - shows that he is developing unrealistic expectations that are due to him not getting a reasonable amount of challenge inside the classroom (They may not instantly make the connection, though)

Any crying, stomachache or other bodily symptoms. Signs of stress, worry, fear will make an impression.

They don't get it that 'having it easy in school' is not something to envy, so you have to connect the dots and show how he is in pain due to 'too easy.' They have memories of breaking a mental sweat and how painful that is. Try and get them to connect the dots that normal amounts of stress create growth as well as sad memories, and that your son is being denied the chance to get used to working hard. Throw in a few family examples that this is actually a problem. Very few people can coast all the way through their lives, and you don't want to bank on that for your son - you want him to experience the normal learning-associated stress along with all the other kids. Not too much but not too little. It's unpleasant but necessary. Try and find any concrete examples of this in your son to share.

Is he reluctant to try new things that he isn't instantly good at?
Does he feel that he has to be the fastest in the classroom in order to feel ok about himself?
Is he mentally equating 'smart' with 'effortless learning?' This is a set up for him have low resilience and quitting the minute the going gets rough.

Read through Tracy Inmanhttp's excellent - 'What a child doesn't learn'
http://www.wku.edu/academy/?p=430

and see if you can find any little stories of your son that demonstrate these points.

School folks are people - people can move heaven and earth to help other individual people once their hearts are touched. You job is to translate all these ideas which make so much sense to us, here, into words that School folks will hear. They are still living in with their own experience of struggle in school, that they probably don't realize was such a gift - but it's possible that you will be able to help them see that challenge is natural to human development, and the fantasy of breezing through school is as much as a delusion as becoming a Pro Athlete or marrying the Prince.

You can do everything right and still get no where - that's why it feels so hard, because you can ask, you can beg, but the control in this situation is outside your power. (I've failed in the public school and felt that it was my fault. It wasn't.) It's great that your older son has found a school with a different attitude. Is it possible that the DS12's school has a connection with a school for elementary aged kids that they could make a phone call on your behalf and open some doors for your younger son?

Such a large proportion of IQ difference is genetic. Even if the school isn't aware of this on a conscious level, I think that most adults are aware that some families just seem chock full of bright successful kids. That might be better tree to bark up, yes?

Best Wishes,
((Mom-Salute from one Mom-warrior to another ))
Grinity

I think this is a situation that begs for Hothousing - just a bit would be all that's needed, assuming it would be fun for your DD. Even just taking a weekend to give all the kids a whack at a free trial of

http://www.aleks.com/free_trial

next rainy weekend just to see what they can do with an enriched environment, if you truly haven't been doing any Math Afterschooling, then that little bit is probably all she needs.

They do have to draw the line somewhere....but to my mind it's better to break the group into 2 subgroups and include a few more of the kids on border in the slower group. Or maybe your DD was an isolated data point? ((In which case, just let her in on a trial basis?)) There should be some group of But basically you are back to the 'SUV' problem if other parents are afterschooling and you aren't.

But I think I'd make more of 2 points on a MAP test than on any other test I know...afterall, the MAP test gives many many many questions that are right at a child's readiness level.

This is an excellent topic, LinCO, and I'd encourage you to move my post and yours to a new thread. Statistically - Vast numbers of kids are in your DD's situation. Every kid deserves to be in a classroom where there is teaching at their readiness level - with academic peers!

Every kid deserves to be in a classroom where there is teaching at their readiness level - with academic peers!

Love and More love,
Grinity


Love and More Love,
Grinity

My pg SIL had it out with a teacher at the same age re: the word "gnu"...

I would strongly encourage you to get the book From Emotions to Advocacy. I suspect you will be needing it. Good luck!