Hi Everyone,

My daughter, who is 6 years old and in first grade, just went through the testing program here in PA, and they have decided she is not gifted. This is a huge surprise to me, and reading through the report it seems that although every other source identified her as gifted, her WISC IV score was not high enough for admission to the program. Here are the scores:

CogAT (Aptitude/Ability): Verbal 124, Quantitative 150 (she actually didn't miss a single question in this section), Nonverbal 121, Composite 139 (above 99th percentile)

ITBS (Achievement): Level 1.7-1.9, Concepts Level 7 (98%), Reading Level 7 (99%)

Teacher evaluation scale: Highly Probability for Giftedness in all areas

WISC IV (Intelligence): Verbal 116 (86th percentile), Perceptual Reasoning 117 (87th percentile) On this section, picture concepts was 8, while the other two sections were each 15. GAI - 120 (91st percentile)

Additional info: She taught herself to read at age 4, her piano teacher said he has never had such a young student progress so quickly. We do not push her to study, have never prepped her for an exam or anything. If anything, we have sometimes tried to pull her back a little because she reads better than her older sister.

I don't know what to do. Most of the stuff I have found talks about kids getting low scores on CogAT but better on the WISC. Does anyone have any advice?? I would greatly appreciate and help.

Thanks!

Thanks for responding Dottie! To answer your questions...

It is funny that Quantitative is higher for her, because I actually see her as more verbal. But, this is coming from someone who is a math geek (and future high school math teacher) but who did lousy on the verbal part of the SAT.

I don't have them in front of me, but I think all three sections on the verbal part of the WISC were 13s. I don't think she was given the other two portions of the WISC.

She is definitely very shy and reserved. I was wondering if that might have something to do with it. Maybe we should think about a private testing service next year?

Our school gives the CogAT to the whole first grade and uses it to screen. However, you only need a 125 on it to get bumped into the next level of testing, then you have to do well enough on the ITBS and teacher evals, THEN you go to WISC. She did so much better than the 125 (I think that's only about 90th percentile or even less, and she was above the 99th) that I kind of thought that it was a given she was going to get in. I am gifted myself and I see so much of myself in her...

I guess what I don't get is, how is this test administered? I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall to see what was going on with her. That one low score kind of messed the whole thing up - did she not understand the directions for that section or something?

As far as reading goes, she likes the typical stuff like Magic Treehouse, but she thinks it's really easy. She'll sit down and read a whole book in one sitting. I probably need to get to the bookstore and get her some better stuff. I just know from comparing her to my older daughter (who is only 20 months older) that she is so much more fluent. It was so frustrating when my older daughter was trying to read and her little sister could do it before her. And just as a comparison, my older daughter scored 123 on the CogAT, so almost qualified for testing, and is tracked into the advanced math class as well.

Thanks, Dottie! We will either wait until next year or maybe consult a local private testing service and see if they are familiar with ways to convince the school district that Kate's test was not representative of her real abilities. The problem with waiting until next year, is if she gets a high CogAT score again, are they going to say well that happened last year too so we're not going to test her again? It just seems a little funny to completely disregard all of the other indicators all for the WISC. The district would be willing to disregard a low CogAT score, but not WISC, and that seems a little one-sided to me.

I have a brother 3 years younger who taught himself to read about the same time I was learning to read, at age 6. Yup, I can see why a parent would try and sandbag the younger. But in the long run, I think it's better to aim for a family where everyone is allowed and appreciated to be who they are. Did it undermine my self confidence? Yes, it did, but then on the other hand, we played hours and hours of boardgames, and the fact that I could beat my younger brother half of the time meant more to me than then the reality that I could beat age peers all of the time. So when it came to job training in a male-dominated field, I had more than enough self-confidence, which I trace back to competing with younger brother.

I wouldn't say that you have to have them read aloud 'head to head' but I would start bringing home real books from the library for 'whoever wants them' and see if you can get either one of them hooked on actual literature for children. I love 'Little House on the Prairie' and 'Phantom Tollbooth' anything by E.B. White and the books in the OZ series. Books published before 1970 have a better chance of being kid-appropirate in subject matter.

Kerrip,
It is again one of those cruel tricks played on gifted families, that one one sits us parents down and lays out the situation. If I had funding, I would travel throughout the US and tell moms: "Ok, the books that are currently being written and sold as good for beginners are good for most kids, but you need to be exposing your children to books with strong characters, excellent language and the beginnings of a plot much earlier than the other parents do."

Magic Treehouse series is one of the best of it's type, but still ((cringe!))

My guess is that once you take the sandbags off (maybe off of both daughters - afterall, it isn't how well one read's aloud that really matters, it's how deeply one dives in!) and make a conscious effort to encourage your daughters to talk to strangers on a regular basis, in a year the WISC might pop right up to where you want it.

My mom was pretty brutal in training all of us kids to talk to strangers. If we happened to be in a restaurant, we didn't eat unless we could order from ourselves at an obnoxiously young age. If we were waiting in line, my mom would strike up a conversation with any available adult and then pressure us into 'showing off' for the grown up in line (usually she picked little old ladies who were charmed) as in,
DDM: Beautiful Day, isn't it?
LOL: Yes, nice change after the recent hurricane
DDM: My daughter know all about how hurricanes form, here dear, tell this nice lady about hurricanes.
me: well, um, there are these wind currents (and so forth)

Whenever relatives or special friends of hers with older children would come to visit, each child was expected to 'entertain/show off' one of our special skills - from playing a song on the piano, to explaining the mating habits of penguins,or singing TV jingles. My mom usually chose what we did with leading suggestions. It was embarrassing but validating at the same time. DDM made it clear that we were only doing our part to help the Adult get to know us, which was part of why they came, afterall.

DDM also had me checking out our grocery order, holding the money was fun. She also sent me into the library at about age 7 to pick up one of those OZ books for my younger brother and she was generally was willing to make a PIA of herself to give me chances to interact with adults, and she was great at coaching. I did a bunch of that with my son without even realizing how abnormal it was.

In fact I always forget how unusual that part of our upbringing was. DDM was clear that her kids were NOT going to hide their light under a bushel. With my son, I tried to add further guidance that once kind of behavior works with Adults and a different set of behavior works with Kids. I had to figure that out myself the hard way ((wink!))

shrugs and more shrugs,
Grinity

Grinity - thanks for sharing that insight into your own childhood. It has really given me something to think about in comparison to wondering how much we should hide or not discuss where our kids are at.

kerripat, you sound like a great parent who is sensitive to the needs of both your children. It is tough if you have a younger one who is catching up to, or outstripping, your older one in some ways. Still, I wouldn't hold either of my children back in any way, ever. That would be doing a worse disservice to the more advanced one. I'd probably not gush over your younger child's reading ability in a way that might discourage your older child, but in the long term I don't think there will be any harm in letting your younger read material that's more level-appropriate. Your older child might even be inspired to try harder at reading.

ETA: What Grinity said: take the sandbags off.

Thanks everyone for your responses!

We have pretty much removed the sandbags now. The only time we were holding her back (just a little) was right when my older daughter was struggling with reading. Once it clicked with her, she was okay that her sister was reading too, and I don't think she realizes that her sister is a better reader. I think the older one has discovered that she has a few things that she does better than my younger one too, so that makes her feel better.

We need to start hitting the library. I bet those books that you all suggested would be much appreciated over the summer when there is more time. As it stands now, we have an activity pretty much every night, plus have to get the instrument practicing in... When does it ever end???

This is I'm sure a long shot, but does anyone's child have MAJOR clothing sensitivity? My younger daughter has always been a little more sensitive to her clothing (tags had to be cut out, socks and shoes were always a problem, no jeans or any itchy fabrics, etc.) but in the last 6-9 months her problems have really escalated. We are to the point where she has NOTHING she will consistently wear. She complains that nothing fits her and blames it on the clothes, but things that were her favorite last week she will outright refuse to ever wear again this week. We are buying new stuff out the wazoo, and we have major problems every morning. The latest thing is that she can't find a single pair of sandals or flip flops or a single bathing suit for the summer. She has tried on (no kidding) at least 40 bathing suits, and she has missed out on swimming once already. She is so upset by it, but more angry about all of the stupid clothes that don't fit. She is very sad too and cries that she won't be able to swim this year (one of her favorite things to do).

I took her to the pediatrician Wednesday and they referred us to a counselor. Does anyone have any experience with this? I'm losing my mind!

magic tree house books are awesome/ Every four books is a set. There are clues in each book (all are stand alone as well). My dd is also enjoying Judy Moody books.

Ask your pediatrician for a referral to an Occupational Therapist who is knowledgeable about sensory integration. If it is bothering her enough that she would rather miss out on favored activities than tolerate the discomfort, then it is not something that counseling is going to fix without also addressing the sensory processing component. In my experience, addressing the sensory processing component first so that the sensations are not so bothersome would make a lot more sense than getting counseling aimed at trying to develop coping strategies for dealing with constant irritation.

Lol why not both? But it isn't I good sign that think Tiger Mom is a comedy.

I'm with you Grinity! When my older daughter was about 3 she had severe speech problems and was diagnosed with verbal apraxia. I immediately started researching, making calls, advocating, etc. I got her into 4 days a week of speech and 2 days a week of occupational therapy, a special preschool, had her on 4-5 different supplements, plus a GFCF diet. Boy did we kick the apraxia's butt! I was told at one point that she would probably have lifelong problems with speech and possible learning disabilities and that she might be on the autistic spectrum, and now she is thriving and no one even believes she ever had a problem!

Kerrip
I don't want to joke too much about moms causing Psychiatric issues in their kids but from my observation. Moms have different gifts that they are able to pass along to their kids. Its awesome that you were able to kick apraxia's but. It is awesome that Dottie was able to give her DDs the gift of time as far as talking to strangers. We give our children the gifts we can and as our kids grow they get to seek out other role models to pick up the rest. Like every other relationship each member of the relationship does some asserting of their essence and some blending/blending. How much? In which areas? We get a lifetime to explore this issue.
L&ML
Grinity

Hey just an update as an FYI to anyone going through a similar thing...

I talked to our school guidance counselor yesterday, and she said that typically it's only the non-verbal section of the CogAT that correlates with the WISC, because WISC doesn't really have any quantitative section. My daughter's worst section was non-verbal, and it did indeed almost match her WISC GAI. She said that my daughter will be placed in the higher level math in 2nd grade and will probably be able to accelerate to 4th grade math in 3rd grade.

Another interesting thing, though, was had she not bombed that one section (picture concepts?) of the WISC and instead got a score in line with everything else, she would have got into gifted. She only needed a 127 on WISC because all of her other scores and evals were so high. They will automatically test her again next year.

This all made me much happier about the whole thing. Really, it's not the gifted program I wanted for her. I just want her to be able to accelerate and not be denied because she's not in gifted. Apparently, our school district only uses gifted for enrichment, and acceleration is based on completely unrelated measures.

This certainly wasn't the case for my dd, but the verbal section of the CogAT is actually the one that correlates with the WISC more so than the nonverbal part. This study has the correlation btwn the verbal section of the CogAT and the verbal index of the WISC-III at .87 and the nonverbal part of the CogAT only having a .64 correlation with the performance index of the WISC-III. I only skimmed the article, but I do believe that the subjects of the study were above average but generally not gifted. It would be interesting to see the correlation when using kids with gifted identifications only.

Well, I guess she was bound to do worse on the WISC either way, because her high CogAT (139 composite) was mostly due to hitting the ceiling on the quantitative part (150) while still getting decent scores on the other two. Verbal was 124 and non-verbal was 121.

Okay, now I'm even more confused. I was starting to think about summer books and enrichment, and I wanted to see what I could find about DD6's reading level. All I could find from her GOAL report was that her WCPM was 129. How does that compare to where she should be?

I couldn't find anything else, so I decided to have her take the DORA test recommended in another thread. Here were her grade-level scores (she is in first):

HFW - 3.83 (ceiling)
WR - 12.83 (ceiling)
PH - 4.83 (ceiling)
PA - 89% (good?)
SP - 1.83 (ha! she aces her spelling tests, but will just spell everything else phonetically)
VO - 4.83
CO - 5.5

So it seems like, other than the spelling, she has the reading skills of a 5th grader. Is that about right? Is this an extreme difference, or is more common than I would think. She did not qualify for GOAL, and it was because her verbal scores were not very high. I realize that the DORA is not supposed to be a very accurate measurement tool, but I kind of was blown away the few times I was looking over her shoulder and saw what and how she was doing. The reading passages seemed WAY above her reading level, but she didn't have any problems and answered most of the questions correctly.

BTW - I had DD8 start to take the test too. If anything, it confirmed with me that DD6's abilities are innate, because DD8 didn't do nearly as well (WR-3.83 and PH-4.5). We don't "practice" this kind of stuff at home.

So the big question is - what kind of books should we look for at the library? How do I know what will be the right level?

I had ds5 take the DORA last week. It recommended 5th grade reading for him as well. He is far from a 5th grade reader. He is about first grade reading (he is in pre-k)

HA! This made me LOL. Thanks for the laugh.

I didn't think DD6 was that far ahead of grade level, but then when I heard her reading the passages for the comprehension part and then proceed to answer most of the questions correctly I changed my mind. The passages were about The Silk Road, The Trail of Tears, Erosion, etc. Far from first grade level, and she did really well with them!

When it comes to the library, get a selection of books from varying levels. Books published before 1970 are going to have fewer 'mature themes.' See if she is interested in 'Little House on the Prairie' or 'Ozma of Oz'
We loved 'The Phantom Tollbooth' and anything by EB White.
also the Dinotopia illustrated books.

Take a look here for more ideas:
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/hot_topics.htm

Once you've found a few books at 5th grade level that she likes, ask the librarian for more suggestions.