I am new to this forum but need some guidance from those of you more experienced. We are meeting w/school psychologist tomorrow night re: 8yo DS WISC IV scores. New school psych asked to test him based on 99th % MAP scores, (FINALLY, by the way, 3rd year in a row for these MAP scores). We've been asking for some help from them and are incredibly frustrated. Private school, no gifted program. School psych told me last week that he's "around 140". What specifics should we ask for? The school has always seemed very reluctant to release info. Thanks to all in advance for any guidance!

Other than MAP, no testing I am aware of; they do ERB in May. The only feedback I have received so far is from my DS who said he went "as far as he could go" on sequencing and digit span, which was (sort of) verified by the school psych after I questioned her. At the same time, she let me know that for some reason he scored lower than she expected on either comprehension or general knowledge. The former school psych gave him the KBIT(?) in PK but said she couldn't score him because the answers he gave weren't exactly wrong but weren't the "expected" responses. Do we need the MAP scores as well? The school seems to feel that they are academically advanced enough and don't need to offer gifted options. We are seriously considering switching schools at the end of this year. Thank you so much for all your help.

I was just wondering if, in addition to the breakdown of all the WISCIV subtests, we need to get scores (if there are any) from his MAP testing. They have done MAP testing for 3 years and they tell us he's in the 99th % every year, but we've never seen any sort of number score. They told us that MAP was an assessment test and I'm just trying to make sure I get everything I need in order to research on my own so that we can get him in the proper school. We are also dealing with some issues of older kids making fun of him. The school psych okayed him to go to the 4/5/6 grade "math club" (extracurricular) but after his 2nd time, he never wanted to go back because the older kids were teasing him. He's the youngest in his 3rd grade class as well so he's the smallest boy. We have been asking for at least math differentiation for 3 years, which the school touts as one of their strengths - "meeting kids at their own level" but we have not experienced that in the classroom. We don't entirely blame the teachers because we don't think they are very well-equipped to handle gifted students. Part of the reason we chose that school was the possible differentiation and small (14) class size. Their solution has typically been to send extra work home and allow him to do higher grade level math on IXL, again at home. They really don't teach him anything new. In fact, they are having him tutor his classmates, which isn't really benefiting him very much if at all. He's bored stiff all the time at school and rushes through assignments so quickly that he's starting to miss easy problems/questions on all subjects. Last night he was assigned 15 minutes on IXL. He chose a 6th grade level section on decimals and decided to "test" it. He put in leading zeros, the decimal point, the correct answer, and more zeros, and although his answer was mathematically correct (we checked), IXL marked it wrong. I see where he's going and I'm concerned that if we don't challenge him now, we'll be in trouble soon! Again, thank you. Sorry for the lengthy reply; as you can tell, I am frustrated!

Definitely put your request to the school psychologist in writing. Ethically, he/she is bound to release them unless he/she sees a danger in doing so. By law, the school must release the scores/profile to the parent if it is requested.

The school psychologist should have done a report that summarized the findings- ask for that, too.

I'm curious if this is a public school or a private school. If this is a public school, then are there 'other choices' in your public school system?
Is homeschooling an option?
Love and More Love,
Grinity

Private school. We've looked into our local public schools as well, both the one he would attend based on where we live and one in a nearby city, both with GT programs. It so happens that 4 of our neighbors are public school teachers and only one of them has advised me to look into her school; the other 3 have told me it would be a mistake to send him to their particular GT program for various reasons. We considered homeschooling a few years ago but he was very shy and timid, and we were advised by his PK teacher to continue attending school at the time. He has since totally blossomed, LOVES his friends, so we feel it was a good decision. His closest friend (also gifted) left this year to attend a private school w/GT program and they are very happy. They left for the same reasons. We are looking into that school even though it's further away; another friend (not gifted) has applied to that school as well. We visited the school and are impressed with their GT program. They carefully accelerate each student based on individual testing and emotional readiness. The school has counselors, paraprofessionals, teachers, etc. trained in gifted education, though that's just a small part of their total population. What we really like about it is that when students reach the junior high level academically, the gifted counselor prepares an individual curriculum tailored to each student. I have asked around and it appears they actually do what they say they will do. We'll see. Suggestions?

Dottie, I'm embarrassed to say I don't know how far past the 99th % he is. I will find out. Thanks for alerting me!

I can see having these problems in public schools, but your are paying them. Why all the secrets? Why are they not forthcoming with information? The school should send home a MAP report each time your child takes the test (which in most districts is a minimum of 2 times a year). NWEA (the company that does the MAP test) creates a Student Progress Report and I get it each time my child takes the MAP. It is an especially useful tool to monitor your child's growth. I would suspect that your child is in the 99% above his grade level. The MAP score is based on a RIT number that correspondence to a %. So, if you can get his RIT, you can go to the NWEA website and get the conversion chart and see for yourself.

Sounds like a wonderful school - I would suggest: a car pool!
awesome!

Met w/school psych last night. We will get something in writing next week, as we ran out of time in our meeting and will meet again next week. Suffice to say, understanding this is a daunting task! Here's what we know...hope it makes more sense to you than it does to us.
FSIQ 138
PRI 139/99.5%
WMI 148/99.9%
PSI 126/96%
VCI 110/75%

She said he would need another test if we want to get MORE details re: WMI, as he hit the ceiling at 19. She did say that the VCI score could be due to a couple things - whether or not he was really tired of the testing and just stopped trying or (and this is our opinion as well as hers) what his experiences have been. She gave us an example, though not an actual question from the test, and we knew immediately why he answered the way he did. When we explained to her, she understood too, but that doesn't change the test result. With the 138 FSIQ, he's good to go into most gifted programs here in Ohio, so should we worry? She doesn't seem to think so - she says he's sheltered and we need to let him grow up, that his responses in the VCI showed "immaturity". Thoughts anyone?
PS - on the MAP score issue - she doesn't think we need to know any scores because they are something the TEACHERS use, not parents. We may pursue this further.

From what I remember the VCI was very balanced, but I will get actual numbers next week. DS used to be very reserved even around other children, only one friend at a time. In the past couple years he has become very social as long as he knows someone in the group but remains steadfastly reserved if he doesn't know someone. Unlike most, he sits back and observes until he knows he can do something himself, then he just does it. The psych says his planning skills are remarkable. The problem is then that it's mastered and finished, and he wants to move on. Hence our issues with traditional classroom education...having to do things over and over is the bane of his existence. Interesting that you said "Good luck" getting the MAP scores...that is EXACTLY the phrase our school psych used when we asked for them. She said they had nothing to do with grade level.

Just make a written request. You could also get a lawyer friend to write a letter on their letter head. Or ask the gifted school to call and ask for the actual numbers (not the percentile.) The idea is to look at various schools and say 'where would I have to put this kid so that he would be at the top 10% but not in the top 1%? 3rd grade,4th grade, 5th grade, 6th grade?'

Each school has a different batch of kids in each grade level, so with the raw score of MAP you can compare 'apples to apples' - at least sort of.

The assumption is that teacher are good at what they do, and will teach to the 'readiness level' of the classroom where you child is, and as long as your child is near the pack they will do well.

Remember this?


I don't care what the number on the classroom door says - I don't want my kid in any classroom where he is getting the feeling that he is dining alone.

Get your tires checked and your oil changed and stock up on some great audio presentations. ((wink and smile))
Grinity

When I was having trouble getting accurate MAP reports from the school, I learned that the score will come up at the end of the test. I asked my kids to write this number down and give it to me so I could look up the above grade level percentiles. I'd ask your son if he remembers this number and if not, ask him to remember or write it down for you in the future.

P.S. Since it's a private school I don't think you'll have much luck with FERPA:
http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ferpa/parents.html

Received scaled scores.
VCI - SI 14/VC 13/CO 9 (Dottie, you were right)
PRI - BD 16/PCn 14/MR 19
WMI - DS 19/LN 18
PSI - CD 14/SS 15

Any other numbers that would be helpful?

How do I know what the GAI is - can I figure it out myself? What I have in front of me is a copy of the front page of the WISCIV Record Form. There is no indication of "GAI" but I'm sure it's in this bunch of boxes & numbers somewhere...

You can figure his GAI using WISC Technical Report #4 . With the numbers you have, I'm getting 129, 97th percentile. For kids with lower supporting skills in WMI and PSI, the GAI can be helpful but b/c your ds has such high WMI & PSI, you'd probably want to stick with the higher FSIQ.

Hm. I'm not as sanguine about a spike-low Comprehension score, especially in the context of Picture Concepts being the low man on the PR totem pole. Both rely on "real world" information. Depends a lot on *why* that score was low and the kid's academic and developmental history.

We discussed the "real world" issue w/psych. She gave us an actual example because we were so confused by the score. I know she's not supposed to do that, but she was trying to make a point both about his being "immature". ? was something about smoke - DS based his response on HIS real world experience, Our next door neighbor has bonfires all the time, and the smoke comes directly into our house. I have allergies to smoke, so I complain and run around closing windows. We have never discussed house fires, nor do we watch the news when he's around. As I said in an earlier post, she understood, but we can't change the scores. That's why she told us to stop sheltering him. Make sense?

If that's an actual test question, you should probably edit it out since the actual questions are supposed to be kept confidential. My dd10, too, has much lower comprehension scores than the other two indices on VCI. Both times she was tested, her other two VCI scores were 18/18 and 17/19, but comp was 15 once and 12 the other time, if I recall correctly.

From what the psychs who tested dd said, she had some atypical ways of interpreting the questions that didn't show lack of comprehension of social situations, per se, but certainly weren't what the person who wrote the test was looking for.

In the example you gave, I don't know that I'd take that type of a response as a sign of sheltering. It may just be uneven development, it could be an issue with social comprehension (such as Aspergers although I'd be loathe to consider that without significant other indicators), or it could be a variety of other reasons.

Do you have enough other kids in his age range to compare him to to see if he really seems to be socially sheltered beyond the norm? Do you know anyone else with a child his age who would be honest with you if you asked?

Thanks for the advice about the question - I edited it out. Anyway, this is the 2nd time we've had this issue w/testing (KBIT at age 4), and like you, we were told it isn't an indication of any social problems nor Aspergers, but it was more what was "normal" for him, and he didn't give EXPECTED answers. As far as being sheltered beyond the "norm" - I have good friends with whom I discuss all of this - two have gifted kids, two do not, all are good friends with my DS. We have all been told by someone at the school that our sons are "sheltered". In particular the gifted kids my son hangs out with all learned how to read on their own around age 2 so they left picture books behind; my son didn't crawl for more than a couple weeks, he walked early, etc. He seems to sort of leapfrog those physical developmental milestones, so testing probably reflects that. Plus, I come from a family where most everyone is gifted--my 1/2 brother scored 162 on the SB in the 1970's, my dad 147, etc.--they are all little "odd" especially my brother, so I never thought anything about it when my DS sort of skipped these things. I figured it was just in line with the rest of my family!