I posted a while back, but with a newborn haven't had as much time to be on as I like. I hope you would still be willing to give me some advice. My dd is in K, we are deciding if she should be moved to 2nd next year instead of 1st. The school was against her moving to first in Novemeber when we had a meeting. In my opinion they are being very vague in their recommendation of skipping first. They have said it is a good idea, but also a bad. I feel like all they do is talk in circles, never really answering the questions and I feel more confused than ever. They did map testing to see where she fell and she got a 187 in math and a 177 in reading(it was her writing that really pulled this score down. This was taken in the begining of December. From what they gave us she is scoring right now as an average fall reading 2nd grader and a high fall math 2nd grader. Currently they do little to enrich her even though the said they would. She does stuff that we have sent in with her and we continue to enrich her at home. She is also in a gifted Saturday program. I guess I feel like they are putting the decision on us with little input so if she fails it is on us. I do not want a repeat of this year where she is bored, frustrated and almost becoming lazy in her work b/c there is no challenge. I've had friends say wouldn't you rather she was the top first grader than a average 2nd grader. I just am feeling overwhelmed with this decision. If we put her in first and she is bored they will fight us on the classroom change, if we move her I am afraid her writing won't be up to snuff and she may feel overwhelmed. She is close to the birthday cut off so I am not worried socially as she already plays with many kids who will be in 2nd next year, it is just more the writing/grammar aspect. Any advice or input would be greatly appreciate. My husband and I feel all alone in this decision and it is overwhelming.

You said that she was close to the bd cut-off; does this mean that she is one of the youngest or one of the oldest in her current grade?

You're in such a tricky spot. I'd generally agree that it is desirable for a child who skips to be in the top 25% of the grade into which she is skipping, so I do see the point of the people who say that skipping her into a grade in which she'll be an average student isn't ideal. However, I also understand that she may be underachieving due to inappropriate work.

We agreed to skip one of our girls a grade and she was one who still fell near the top of the grade into which she was skipping. Our other child we haven't skipped and I don't imagine we will be choosing to do so in the future. She has been an underachiever at times and an erratic achiever. Some of her underachievement probably came from some time where she wasn't taught much and kind of coasted by.

Your dd is still early, early in her elementary experience. I wouldn't look at it as a now or never proposition. What I might consider is supplementing her education with something like Aleks or EPGY at home, seeking subject acceleration in her strongest subject next year, and then seeing where her achievement falls come the end of 1st grade. Maybe at that time her performance level will be such that it is obvious that the skip is warranted (or not).

She is 5 months into K and already scoring like an average to high second grader. It isn't as though she is going to make no progress in the next 9 months. At this point, with the skip, she is probably going to walk into 2nd grade already knowing much of what they are going to "teach" her there. The point of school is not to prove what you already know, it is to learn things you don't know yet. From the standpoint of the child who is going to be sitting in the classroom, spending 7 hours a day going over boring stuff already mastered is just torture. You don't want her to spend first grade hating school. K to 2 is one of the easier skips to make, since so much of the first grade curriculum is just basic reading instruction and simple addition and subtraction.

You have nine months to play writing and grammar games with her if you are really worried that her skills there are below par - but it might be good for her to have a work a bit and not be the best without even trying in some area.

She is already part of the social group that will be in 2nd, so there is no worry about not fitting in or not having friends.

I'm not seeing a single reason to argue against the grade skip. If this were my child, I'd go for it.

Does your school use the Iowa acceleration scales? Using this can often put it out there in black and white a lot more clearly and relieve some of the anxiety about whether you are doing the right thing. If you did use this tool, I think she would be rated as an excellent candidate for a grade skip.

Thanks for the response. She missed starting K the previous year by 1 month so she is one of the oldest in the class right now. The only problem with her school is that they will not do subject acceleration only in class enrichment. Sadly, what they are doing with her is so minimal and it is a full day K so it isn't like they had limited time. Pretty much what they do is when they are practicing writing numbers she writes the words. When they are writing "A" for words that begin with that letter, again she writes the word. She has her write sentences here and there and she also writes in a journal we sent in with a story starter book I had. She does this in one of the centers, but that is twice a week.

I guess my biggest question for any really familar with MAP scores are do they think those qualify?

They do not use that. They did want to see the results of the testing done to qualify her for the gifted program she is in. That is through Northwestern Center For Talent Development in Illinois. I do feel as though we could help her catch up as she is eager to do activities at home. I just like getting perspective of people who have experience, so thank you for the advice.

So, looking @ the percentiles, it would probably make the most sense to see how her scores compare to 1st graders at the same point in the year since that is the group you'd be looking at her being part of. Her being on the older end is also a plus.

Her math MAPS score for a mid-year first grader would be at the 93rd percentile. Her reading MAPS score for a mid-year first grader would be at the 81st percentile. They're both at or beyond the 99th for a mid-year kindergartener. (Sorry not to have looked that up earlier before I replied!) It doesn't sound like she'd be average in that group, just not a super-star, top of the class kid.

eta: For mid-year 2nd graders her scores would be: 25th percentile (reading), and 77th percentile (math). There must be a lot of expected growth btwn mid 1st and mid 2nd on reading! Unless you have concerns in that area, her reading will likely take off like all of the other kids in 2nd, though. You mention her writing pulling the reading score down. The MAPS test is a computer based multiple choice test and the reading part doesn't including writing as far as I know. Are you sure it was reading MAPS and not Language Usage MAPS for which you were given the 177? Language Usage, while still multiple choice computer administered may include recognition of writing customs as well as grammar and punctuation.

Have you had any ability testing done? I'd definitely want to do that before deciding on a skip. I'm not saying that this is the case, but there are kids who achieve highly early on due to factors beyond super high ability and I'd want to make sure on that front too. The Iowa Acceleration Scale does say that kids who are on the older end can be considered for grade skips even if they aren't in that 98th percentile and up range as long as they are 1 standard deviation above the mean. It seems quite likely that your dd will fall at least that high if not higher.

I'll just give you a little of my experience since we just did what you are considering.

I skipped my DS into 2nd this year. He was in K last year. His birthday was the day before the cut off so before the skip he was already the youngest in his class. That puts him probably 2 years younger than a lot of the kids 2nd grade. He turned 6 at the end of September. He has a step-sister in 2nd grade who is 8 and a step-brother who is 6 and in K so I was able to see his interactions with both age ranges before skipping him and I was pretty sure he'd do better with older kids socially.

I think for us it's been a really good decision. I'd say that he's still probably at least top 3 in his class (he's never brought home less than an A on a report card) but he is finally seeing some new material. Having to actually use his brain a little when doing homework has been a learning experience for both of us but I think that he needs to learn to put some effort forth in school so it's been a positive. We do have a problem with his handwriting being not so great but I think it's because his motor skills are still developing.

Socially he's doing really well. This is the first year (he's been in school since Pre-K) that he has friends that he talks about and he seems to have one or two that he plays with a lot. I think that the kids in 2nd grade are more on his level than the kids in 1st were. He also seems to have stepped up his maturity level now that he's in a class with older kids. He still gets in trouble from time to time but probably not any more than average.

I'm glad that we skipped him now so that he can move up with these kids through elementary and middle school. He's really short for his age so he's especially short for 2nd grade but nobody has bothered him about it. Nobody has said a thing about his age to him either as far as I know. This is the happiest he's been since he's been in school.

It says on the results they gave me: Reading score 180
(phonological awareness 163-179)
(phonics 170-187)
(concept of print 181-198)
Reading score 174
(vocab. word sturcture 165-179
(comprehension 169-182)
(writing 166-180)

It is my understanding to add the two top scores 180 and 174 and then average them to get the real score which is where the 177 came from.

I also have results on a chart that list her scores as
Reading 177:
Kdg not on charts for fall or spring too high
1: higher 90% for fall
Avg 65% for spring
2: Avg 34-65% for fall
not on charts for spring too low

Math 187
Kdg not on charts for fall or spring too high
1: not on charts for fall too high
High 66% for spring
2: high 66% for fall
Avg 34-65% for spring

The chart they gave says RIT scores to percentile rank conversion chart. It seems like there are several ways to read them.

I'm not familiar with what the subtests in K are, but here's the link to the chart where you can convert RIT/MAPS scores to percentiles: http://pickens.it.schoolfusion.us/m...ssionid=14d1e9266e4482d198ebc39c6e6bc9c3

Breaking what they gave you apart,
That sounds almost right, since 177 is exactly at the 99th percentile for mid-year K and falls right btwn the 96th and 97th percentile for spring K.

Again, that sounds right around what I'd get off the norms chart: 93rd-94th for fall 1st, 63rd-65th for spring 1st.

I'm getting 43rd-45th for fall 2nd and 17th-18th for spring 2nd. I don't know why they said it was too low to be on the charts.

That is definitely above the 99th for fall K and right at the 99th for the spring of K.
For 1st grade, I'm getting: right btwn the 97th and 98th percentile for fall and 78th to 80th for spring
I've got: 77th-78th percentile for fall and 36th - 39th percentile for spring.

I wonder if they are going off of an older norms chart. I believe that these 2008 norms are the newest set of norms for NWEA MAPS.

I'm also wondering why they are looking at fall and spring norms when the test was administered mid-year. The mid-year norms seem to make the most sense to me and, like I said, it seems like she'd be well above average (easily in the top 25%) for the mid-year first graders -- which is who you're aiming to place her with.

I'm also wondering why they are looking at fall and spring norms when the test was administered mid-year. The mid-year norms seem to make the most sense to me and, like I said, it seems like she'd be well above average (easily in the top 25%) for the mid-year first graders -- which is who you're aiming to place her with. [/quote]

Thank you for the link and the break down. The chart is dated 2008, but it is just showing fall and spring scores for KDG thru 8th. Maybe since she took the test December they still consider it fall, though I'm not sure why.

She is on board. We have asked her. I don't think she'd have any problem with skipping the grade and I do feel it would be better for her to have to work a little bit to earn a good grade rather than already knowing it. Her work quality has gone down b/c I think she is bored. I also have to really push her to do the little homework she gets, while she would gladly work for hours on challenging material. I think b/c they are coloring shetts and write the letter/number practice pages she is annoyed by them almost if that makes sense.

You have to scroll way down. Appendix A starts on page 127 of the report and that's where reading norms start. It will have K-11th grade reading fall followed by reading mid-year and reading end of year. Language usage starts next and then math.

Using MAP test to advance kid is a bit risky. My DS8 has MAP scores 2-3 grade above consistently since first grade. There are actually a few kids perform at his level, and the school does have flexible grouping as well as gifted program to accommodate. Except the fact that DS math skill leaped way into 99 percentile for 8th grade in last year's MAP test. That caught attention from the new principal and he initiated to move DS from 3rd grade to 7th grade math class.

FWIW, kids with good mental strength would eventually outrun others including some of the early birds. And early advancement might expose some weak links in the mental development.

This note made me realize that I am rather cautious with skips which is probably why I may be coming across here as more hesitant than others. It took a lot of data and convincing from dd12's school to get us to agree to skip her. I wouldn't have done it early on and with just MAPs scores. We had IQ, MAPS, ITBS, Explore, SRI Lexile, DORA, DIBELS, Acuity, WJ-III, and had her teachers fill out the IAS and I still wasn't absolutely sure. That's not to say that this much data is needed! I just may be overly cautious, though, and I'd venture to guess that if Dottie thinks a skip is a good idea, it may well be! We are on the other side of the age cut-off with both of our kids as well so perhaps more caution is warranted in a situation like my family's where looking at skipping a child who is already young for grade.

My guess is that no test in the world is sufficient to predict what would happen when you put a 3rd grader into 7th grade math. At a certain point you just have to be willing to try and see. Erich, it sounds like you have a wonderful school system with a bunch of really advanced kids to keep your child company - good!

We ask the schools to be flexible all the time, so I think it's ok to ask ourselves to be flexible as well.

So how is it going for your DS in 7th grade math?How long since the move? My son was full skipped (missed 5th) and Math accelerated (into prealgebra) at the same time, and he had to undo the extra subject acceleration. The next year he did the class over and did very well. Socially the decel wasn't a big deal, although we were worried.

Welcome,
Grinity

I would be open to more testing and have even asked about it. The district has never even heard of the IAS. They do SAGES testing though(not familar with it will have to research it). I spoke with the principal for K and she feels my dd is a good candidate for a grade skip b/c of her test results so far and b/c she is so close to the age cut off. She said she did speak with the Super. and the curricululm coordiantor and they feel that a K-2 skip would be difficult as a lot of social growth happens in 1st grade. I would respect their views more if I felt they did something to evaluate my dd. I feel as they just made this decision based on some guideline they have in place not based on her. I also am annoyed since they told us in Nov. that it was too late in the year to grade skip, but made it sound like it would be a good idea if her test results were high enough for a skip after this year was completed. I feel as though they told us something just to make us go away. The principal herself said " the bar has been set very low for dd. That even next year it would be difficult to provide her with the appropriate curriculum inside the regular classroom." I am not in the frame of mind where are grade skip is the only option, but after seeing how little they are doing with her and how it is changing her behavior I am at a loss of what else to do. I can enrich her at home and send her to weekend programs, but that doesn't change that she spends 6 hours a day doing work that isn't a challenge to her and that really frustrates her. Her school day is 1 hour longer next year and I feel as though she is starting to view school as a punishment. The personality difference after she comes out of her Saturday enrichment class really makes me realize how much she enjoys being challenged and being able to be creative.

My DS was similar last year to your DD. He was in K last year with an early November birthday - 36 days after cutoff.

His fall MAPS were Reading 172 and Math 189. He was in all day kinder where in our district only 1/2 day is required. So, he was able to go to 1st grade for reading and some of the other parts of the day were more enriching because of the extra time. We did not request and the school did not advance him for math (we probably should have). His spring MAPS were 203 reading and math was 196. This indicated to me that when he was nearer to his actual level in curriculum, his growth was amazing. I did not think to grade skip him last year because after much advocacy from both my husband and I, the school was actually working with us and trying to provide him some challenge and he loved Kindergarten and was very happy. Looking back, and knowing what I now know about 1st grade, he could have easily skipped K altogether, but I do think it had a benefit for him as it was his first real year of structured school and that took a little getting used to for him.

This year (1st grade) he goes to 3rd grade for reading and 2nd grade for math (again through our advocacy). His fall MAPS for this year were 206 reading and 217 math (his math was summer growth) Based on these fall MAP numbers, the prinicipal requested that the school be allowed to do congitive and achievement testing to make sure the MAP numbers were accurate and they also did the IAS.

After the results of the IQ/Achievement tests and the IAS, we considered a mid year skip this year, but DS (and DH for that matter) were not sold on it but he (they) realize now that he knows the 2nd grade curriculum (already) and so he will likely go to the 3rd grade next year.

This is the path we have taken and by no means is it the path for everyone. But, I think you will see similar growth in your DD if she is provided more appropriate curriculum and your DD will need something more than what she is getting now either through subject acceleration/enrichment or through whole grade acceleration. And, I think she should get it at school (i.e. it is not OK for them to say they will have trouble providing her with the appropriate curriculum - they need to be part of coming up with a plan for her or at a minimum not block your plan for her). My DS has been bored too but his boredom leads to him being disruputive (chatty, coming up with creative ways to entertain himself, singing in class, etc.) so it has been in the schools best interest in some ways to keep him challenged.

Good luck. I hope you can get the school to come around on these issues.

Thank you for your response. It sounds like the district you are in is doing some wonderful things with your ds. If they would be open to ideas like those I would be very excited.

I did speak with the curriculum director today who is setting up another meeting for this coming Thursday. She would like the principal, teacher, school psychologist and us to sit down and come up with goals for her. She said through her observations it is clear she needs more enrichment than what the teacher is providing.

She was against any testing b/c she feels she is too young to do them. She did know about IAS and said they do use it as a way to evaluate children for the gifted program in 3rd grade and that again ds was too young for that evaluation.

She said that she hopes we can come up with a plan that will make us all happy and help to enrich my dd. That they again would prefer to come up with a plan that works without a grade skip as she feels the educational gaps can be significant and may impact her in the future. Her exact words were "something she misses out on now may not be noticed until she goes as far as Algebra and could hinder her future success". I am by no means a math expert, but I highly doubt any lesson she'd miss in 1st grade could somehow impact her future algebra score, but again I am no expert. I just hope the would at least be open to her going to 2nd for math as that is the area she is scoring the highest.

I just hope that the outcome is much better after this meeting. The last one we felt good when we left, but it has been 7 weeks of days with dd in class and she has brought home 1 sheet of homework that was modified to be challenging and she wrote in the journal once that we sent in at their request. I just feel very discouraged about everything right now. It is nice to have this place to read what others have done and that many have successful outcomes. It makes me hopeful that if we continue to stay on top of the situation, come up with good options that the school with work with us and help make her school experience what it should be.

That sounds like total baloney to me. Math is my dd12's weakest subject. Pre-skip she was scoring btwn the 92nd to 97th percentile on grade level math achievement tests (ITBS and MAPS). She was in the 99th for everything else and remained in the 99th for everything else even right after skipping. Two and a half years after skipping 5th grade (including, of course, 5th grade math), her in grade math achievement scores are around the 94th percentile -- still not her strongest area, but she's not having any trouble.

My kids are much older and I would be shocked if anything she missed in early elementary math would impact her later. That sounds like something coming from someone who wants to scare you into following her advice. I was told by the principal at the neighborhood elementary when we enrolled dd12 to start K shortly before her 5th bd something similar -- that we might not see the ramifications of her being younger for years and years but that it would impact her later years down the line where she would struggle academically and we would wish that we had waited to start her when she was older (which was obviously not the case).

If you can get your hands on a copy of the IAS manual and read through it, I think that might be helpful. Perhaps ask the curriculum specialist. Certianly send and email thanking her for her time and 'following up.' Here is a possible way to 'ask the right question' that might help get the ball rolling. Weirdly, if a key player is 'against acceleration' then they will act like it's impossible, right up to the minute before they change their mind. Then it was all their idea. It's a good time to take a deep breath.

Dear So and So,
I'm so looking forward to the next meeting, and I'm so pleased that you are clear that my child needs more than what she is currently getting. I had a few parts that I think I could have misunderstood, perhaps you could clear them up before the meeting.
1) You mentioned that my child is too young to use the IAS, is that correct? If so, can you show me where the Manual shows that he is too young?
2) You mentioned that my child is too young to benifit from testing, is that correct? If so, which tests do you typically use, and can you explain in more detail this idea?

You mention that of course gaps can be detrimental to a child. On the other hand, there is also possible detriment to a child's developing work ethic and love of learning by not providing a good fit educational environment that is much more difficult to remedite than Algebra. My spouse and I are perfectly willing to sign a paper that we will be responsible for any problem that gaps cause our child.

The positive effects of grade skips have been well documented (see http://www.accelerationinstitute.org/Resources/Policy_Guidelines/
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Nation_Deceived

and that we should be sure not to take any workable alternative off the table without carefully studying our child's educational needs.

Thanks again for your attention and caring,
.....

That is my feeling as well, that they are trying to scare us. I posted another thread that we have a meeting Thursday. I am really hoping they would at least do the math acceleration(even though they told us no before). I was also thinking of asking if they could start putting her in first now for math/reading and then the 2nd skip wouldn't have these so called "gaps". My dh feels they just don't want to grade skip one b/c then they will have the headache of dealing with more parents who want one and the testing/meetings etc that would come with that. At the end of the day, that is their job and shouldn't hinder what is best for my dd.

That's certainly a reasonable thought as to why they are dragging feet here. Perhaps if you paid for outside IQ testing they might be more willing (?). I think that our school system didn't worry a ton about other parents coming and saying that our dd was skipped so why wasn't theirs b/c we had a ton of data including IQ scores that most of the other kids didn't have. It was easier to say that this one child had different needs and more data to support it. I wonder if they worry that all parents with kids who score well on one achievement test will start beating down the doors asking for grade skips. Of course, I can't imagine doing that if it wasn't going to work out well for my kid!

Can you go to the meeting. You are amazing at the way you word these things!! Thanks everyone. All of this has been keeping me up at night(well that and my 4 month old) and when I come here it makes things much better. I know we will get through this.

I have considered this. The one issue is really the money. From what I have seen it is 1200-1800/ We did pay to have her tested through Northwestern's CTD for their Saturday enrichment. I did give them those results(they asked to see them) and told them I would give them her end of session evaluation. Just between my ds4 preschool tuition, the extra activities with dd6 and my new little man money is tighter than usual. I was hoping we could possibly hold off b/c we can use that money for CTD summer program, but we may have to do the testing. I will ask at the meeting if they will even take those results. The curriculum director seems to think she is too little for their test, so I wonder if they feel she is too little for them all. If anyone has any good recomendations for testing in the chicagoland area that they have used that would be great. CTD has a person they use, but would be open to other suggestions.

We were in a similar spot three years ago -- ds was even taking Saturday classes at CTD, we lived in Evanston! My ds-then-5 had even higher MAP scores, and his school flat-out denied a skip. Wouldn't do it. We had him privately tested and they blew off the results.

It was beyond frustrating, and we ended up moving him to one of the massively over-priced private GT schools in the area (which we really can't afford).

If I had it to do over again, I'd have gone above the principal's head when it became clear I wasn't getting anywhere with her. She was a brick wall.

There is some truth to the idea that if you skip her, you still want her to be top of the class in the *new* grade. Looking at her scores, I think she'd probably be well-placed in second grade next year.

If you feel a skip would be best for her, stick to your guns, and don't be afraid to escalate! I know that's not a ton of help, but I took the easy way out of the situation. :-/

I wish we could do a private school. We can't get any aid and don't have enough income to cover it. Even if I went back to work the money I'd pay in daycare for the younger two we'd be in the hole

We moved to this area for the good schools and pay really high property taxes. I'd move to a smaller house, but with the economy tanking and the housing market our house has lost too mcuh value. We'd lose everything we put into it, so we have no choice really. I am just going to have to persistent. Like I've said before I'd be open to enrichment, but they were already supposed to be doing it and it hasn't been successful.

This is our first session at CTD. We take them at the Naperville location(it is a 45 minute drive to get there, but still the closest location). How did you like it? My dd has really been enjoying it. We just got the dates for the spring session and I think it is going to overlap with her soccer seaspm so sadly we won't be able to do it. It looks like we can do a week of the summer program though instead.

hi.. I'm in Schaumburg.. I am going to push the school to test ds (5yrs) before he starts kindergarten. I am hoping they place him into 1st grade. DD (7) just took the CogNat tests and I am hoping they will give her the wisc this year instead of next. I cant afford the tests privately as I was just laid off last month.

My 8yo took a few CTD Saturday classes as a 5-6yo ... he didn't love them, but he did enjoy them. It was something to remind him that he really *did* enjoy math, because school was doing a great job of quashing his natural curiosity and ability!

Like I say, I'm not happy he's at the private school -- it's a gazillion times better than the public school he was at, but we've since moved, and I feel like I could have done a better job advocating. We've since moved from that district, and I wonder what we could do with the public schools where we are now ... the school he's at now, while much much better, is still not really designed for kids like my ds, so I'm feeling pretty gypped! Even with the max amount of financial aid they offer and splitting it between two families (my ex-h and I share the cost), it's still hard. :-(

Good luck! I hope you're able to work something out.

So glad you feel better now. I wish I could come, but most likely I'm pretty far away. If you can bring a 'parent advocate' (either paid or a friend faking it in a suit) to listen and take notes, that is ideal, but either way - it is true that you will get through this.
Love and More Love,
Grinity

They changed the meeting until next Thursday. They are really starting to annoy me.

CTD is the best option I could find when the school district is reluctant to offer any help. Except that we live about 40-minute away from Northwestern Univ campus. Commuting every Saturday is a big concern for winter session. I sent my DS8 to CTD for four years. But DS chose not to go there this year because they are offering fewer and fewer classes nowadays. Many classes DS wanted so much are not on the list any more.

BTW, I also noticed the macro-economic situation had some impact on CTD. We went there for EXPLORE test last Saturday, and the parking lot in front of Anneberg was only half-filled.

We go to the Naperville location. It is pretty full from what I see and they are now going to do the summer program there b/c of the demand. We also do the long commute there, but there is nothing close to where we live.