Hi Everyone,
I've been attempting to research the subtest deviations in my dd's wisc-iv and you guys really look like you might be able to help - and I'm hoping you can!

The psych has told us she is 'profoundly gifted'(in the area of verbal comprehension) but has relative weaknesses in the other areas which are the cause of her frustration, emotional issues and depression. She inferred that her Perceptual Reasoning may also be low due to years of inadequate stimulation because verbally my daughter can (and has) accelerated herself; she is a voracious reader. However, we have not looked at Math etc. to the same extent (I'm an academic in the area of literature and psychoanalysis and hence she learns by copying me, I guess). The psych also felt that anxiety and perfectionistic tendencies were heavily apparent and said it would be unethical to give her an official full scale iq as it would be doing Emmie a disservice(although she did say it would be >132). Next step looks like OT which I know very little about. Anyone in this boat and/or have any recommendations? I would be so very grateful as my daughter, who is eight, cries several times every day out of what appears to be apparent frustration. She is extremely empathetic, cries if someone else does and is constantly concerned about saving the planet and worrying about, in her words, 'mother nature'. Life is pretty tough at the moment as she is so preoccupied and upset, inspite of our concerted efforts for 'play time' both as a family and with friends.

Scores are as follows:

SI 19
CO 17
VC 16
VCI > 144

BD 11
PCn 16
MR 12
PRI 119

DS 15
LN 13
WMI 123

CD 11
SS 13
PSI 112

Many thanks to anyone who can shed any light on this for me.

K x

Hi Kbee!

Welcome. It's hard to know how much stock to put in those stories by the local psychologist who I would bet has never tested any kid with a VCI of 144 before. In fact, I think you should ask this in a nice way, for example:

"I'm trying to wrap my head around these numbers...Would you feel comfortable sharing in 'people-talk' just how unusual a 144 VCI is?"

If that doesn't pop out a 'well, I've been testing for 10 years and only saw it once' sort of response, you can follow up with:

"So did a lot of kid you tested this year have a VCI of 140 or more?"

Then you can have an extra 'fact' to store right next to the Tester's explaination. In other words, I'm not buying that there is anything wrong with her scores - to me, they just show a spiky profile gifted kid with a whopper strength in Verbal. If you look at http://www.davidsongifted.org/young...holars___Qualification_Criteria_384.aspx
you'll see that her Verbal score is either enough (if you include the extended scoring) or very close to qualifying her into Young Scholar's Program. (BTW, I do agree with the idea of getting her achievement scores, and then sending them all off to YSP to see if she qualifies.)

If someone showed me (not a professional, just a mom who has lived through it) those scores and my brain would 'point the finger' at 'what is her school situation like' and 'does she have peer-ish friends she can unwind with?' faster than a See and Say Toy with a Farmer spinning in the middle.

We psychologically-orriended types can miss the forest for trees sometimes. If you look at the actual circumstances of her actual life as closely as you look at her possible internal realities, what do you see? Spend an hour observing in her classroom - is she bored out of her skull? Is she expected to 'take care of everyone' at the cost of getting anything academic out of her day? Is she being bullied (by the students or the teacher?) When she raises her hand - if she raises her hand - do the teacher and the students cringe? What does she do to handle the hours and hours of boredom during her school day? To put it another way, maybe she is depressed because her life stinks 6 hours a day.

Are there any situations where she appears comfortable in her own skin? Are there specific friendships where she is really happy?

In other words, tell us more about what she is like as a kid, what her school and extracurricular activities are like, what she loves, what she balks at, and we can try to help you brainstorm some experiments to get to the root at how to make her life better.

I know with my son, now age 14, there have been a few years when I've had to hang on to a vision of how happy he could be based on just a few days out of the year to not get ground down into thinking 'well, he's just a serious kid.'

(And yeah, sometimes those 'few days' were at YSP events where I could observe him with peerlike peers and see the lights go on.)

Huggs and More Huggs,
Grinity

I agree with Grinity.
I just PM'd you. Check your box.

Hi Grinity and Dottie,

Thanks for the replies - it's reassuring to hear from others who have been there. The psych was a specialist G&T psych, but she inferred that she very rarely comes across scores like Emmie's. No extension testing was offered and I guess I was hoping for more information than simply a referral to an OT, and feel like we are being shoved from pillar to post. I got the feeling that the psych is used to testing kids with straightforward IQ's of kids from middle class families who have money and simply wish to push their kids academically as much as is possible (please note I'm not decrying this), rather than gifted kids with 'issues'. She immediately assumed that we would be trying to get Emmie into the most elite private schools in the area rather than simply trying to make our daughter 'happy'.

Em is unhappy nearly all day every day, with the exception of when I work with her to teach her things, we are currently learning all about the human body for example and she is in her element when we are doing this. Basically, if she's learning she is happy. Her teacher is fabulous, extremely intelligent (has a doctorate in marine biology and is G&T herself at a guess), adores Em and actually recommended that she should be tested, but I feel that as she has a class of mixed age (two year groups in one class, and unfortunately this year Em will be the oldest in the class) as well as mixed ability kids in a state school that does not agree with ability grouping or streaming that she simply does not have the time to give Em what she needs, although she does have an IEP.
As for friends, kids do like her and she has friends but there are no children that she enjoys socialising with as their interests just aren't the same. Interaction, without fail, leads to tears and frustration and kids are bemused by her emotional outbursts. Thankfully they are 'good kids' who don't bully her but the differences are becoming more apparent with age (she's eight). In essence she relies on me for all of her intellectual stimulation which obviously is neither ideal, healthy or even possible when I have another child. Her demands to learn are constant. I would love for her to have a friend that she could share ideas with but simply can't find one! Art and craft groups provide an outlet but can only do so much. So, yes, Grinity, your comments do sound pretty much spot on. Em says she enjoys school but 'daydreams' and 'hums' a lot, doesn't really need to listen when things are being explained and even with the extension work she says on an effort scale of 1 - 10 her work is a two. The school tested her spelling age when she was seven, which was approximately fourteen, and she reads like an adult and has done since she was six.
We just want a happy daughter. She says that she feels anxious a lot, that her 'heart hurts inside' but she doesn't know why, and about twelve months ago she tried (unsuccessfully, thank goodness)to stab herself in the heart, with a wire coathanger that she purposely untangled, as it hurt so much that she wanted to die. She then panicked about what she had done and came to me in hysterics. This prompted a visit to the GP and twelve months with a psych, which realistically got us nowhere (except for ruling out aspergers, adhd etc.) as Emily wouldn't talk to her. It's been a tough 12 months, well, six years really! She's a beautiful girl, extremely sensitive, highly moral and ethical and concerned with the greater good, but just impossible to live with!
Thank you so much for listening (and for the hugs!)

K x

Katebee-
At the top of your page, click on My Stuff, then messages to see your PM.

I would strongly consider taking a trip to meet with http://www.patriciagatto-walden.com/index.html

The financial cost might be high but it seems like it would be well worth it to be able to help your daughter. Probably you have read the articles on the SENG website about emotional intensity in gifted kids, I found lots of helpful info. there. Also this book could be helpful:
http://www.amazon.com/Living-Intensity-Understanding-Sensitivity-Excitability/dp/0910707898

My daughter's sub-test scores for VCI and PRI were very similar, but she had a much wider spread between those and the working memory/processing scores, so we were given similar advice and hired an OT to work on dysgraphia. It was a mixed experience, and over the two years since the testing we've seen her "even out" in a number of ways (she's now 9.5), especially after a year of homeschooling gave her a chance to breathe, a bit, after a hectic classroom experience. Seven was an intense, volatile year, with lots of tears and anxiety; 8 and 9 have been much better. I'm not sure, in retrospect, that the gaps between my child's areas of strength and relative weakness were having much impact on her feelings or her behaviour. I think she felt isolated when her vocabulary and literary references went over the heads of her friends and they found her "weird". Over time we've managed to locate some kids who are also big readers, and foster mentoring relationships with a couple of teen babysitters who share her book interests (we've said no to vampire books!)

The more useful thing for us has been finding a variety of outlets for very sensitive/empathetic/hyper-reactive kids, since the world does not cater to them. Drama lessons have been a lifesaver; we've also had some luck with limiting overwhelming sensory experiences (loud music, scary books and movies, news, boisterous playmates), spending lots of time outside, and trying to cultivate quieter activities and interests like sewing. Our daughter seems to need home to be a kind of cozy nest. The Highly Sensitive child book was also a help.

Good luck, Katebee!

Ok well that says quite a lot - if this is your local 'specialist' and she describes your DD's scores as rare (assuming she is talking about the unusualness of the strengths, not the unusualness of the spread) than that definitely tells you to put a little purple question mark with any conclusions the tester is drawing. Rare kids are rare, unfortunately, and it is really hard to find true expertise. What part of the world are you in (vague is good enough) ? There are specialists who really 'get' kids like this, and can work remotely after an initial visit. Dr. Ed Amend in Kentucky, USA is one I can recommend highly. He likes and 'gets' parents.

But on to simple solutions.

What do you think about looking at other schools as a possibility. I'm not a huge fan of the 'elite private school' trip, but if you find one that is staffed by wise and caring people, it can go a long way.

Another alternative is a gradeskip. Hate to give up the wonderful teacher, but unhappy all day every day calls for some compromises. As you mentioned, being the older group in a multi age classroom and truly doesn't work for our kids.

Are there summer programs or 'saturday clubs' in your geographic area? Can you find a bright high schooler or local college student to tutor her in a topic of interest? Can you find a book club at your local public library for 'age 9 and up' and wiggle her in? Have you read 'Sophie's World?' We tried it but I brought home too early...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie's_World

Also worth borrowing from the library if you haven't already is:
Some of My Best Friends Are Books: Guiding Gifted Readers from Pre-School to High School (2nd Edition) [Paperback]
Judith Wynn Halsted

Either of these books might be good guidance to give the tutor/mentor.

I would also get ahold of some middle school text books (unless high school level is better) for overviews of 'biology' 'history' etc. The idea is to get her some overviews so you can see what she likes and delve more deeply on selected interesting topics.

If she likes it when she is learning, then keep your eyes peeled for people, places where learning can happen for her. Taking it all on yourself - being the parent, teacher and friend is too much, and yet, you may just 'have too' do it for a little while longer while you get your resources in place. I used to have to say to myself - over and over - 'if he were special needs the other way, would I be trying to find a balance, or would I just shut up and give?' That helped me at least not feel freakish that I was doing 'super-parenting' for no visible reason.

Is she doing a musical instrument? That's a great energy-sucker-upper, and a part of the life where mentorship is expected.

Golly, sounds like you need to go to the school and have a good cry with the teacher or the principle and tell them how exhausting she is and how you would take any crumb they could send your way as far as getting her into a classroom that is academically challenging.

FWIW, I totally get you 'just wanting her to be happy' - DH and I used to say that all the time. What we didn't getis that there exist kids who 'burn to learn' and for whom learning is just as necessary as air and water and physical activity.

I'm currently exploring Heart Rhythm Meditation, and you DD reminds me a bit of me, so maybe she might like it too. I found some information on Meditation and Gifted Families here -
https://sites.google.com/site/giftedmeditation/?pli=1

Best Wishes,
Grinity

Kate, sent you a private message, look under "My Stuff"

Thanks so much for all of your replies:).

DD had a piano for Christmas so we are hoping that will help, and we are also looking at drama lessons.She attends art and craft at the local environmental centre on a Saturday, which she loves. I'm just not sure where all the money is going to come from! We also have an appt. with a developmental optometrist.

We live in Western Australia. There are no specialist schools for another five years, and our G&T extension program doesn't commence for another two. As per the psych's instruction I contacted GATCA (the G&T Assn. of WA) and they advise that the subtest discrepanancy is likely due to learnt behaviour: i.e. as dd has never been sufficiently challenged at school her pervasive fear of failure will have stopped her from attempting any questions when she wasn't 100% sure of the answer, apparently research shows that this can be the case with as many as 1 in 3 kids, particularly if they are exceptionally gifted. This makes sense as the psych said she kept crawling under the table and hiding behind the couch during the PRI questions. To be honest I have imposter syndrome and am struggling with the fact that Em is apparently between 1 in a 1000 to 1 in 10,000, statistically speaking. Homeschooling has been advised, even if only part time in conjunction with a grade skip, more as a form of emotional therapy through appropriate level intellectual stimulation than academic progression. Apparently even in the long term a 'gifted'school will not fulfill all of dd's needs.

I am also struggling as I have been advised that my bipolar diagnosis may be off the mark, and I am more likely to suffer similar symptoms due to G&T; after being directed to the SENG website I read an article on gifted 'ex-children' and cried! The G&T specialists we have consulted seem pretty sure that that if a misdiagnosis has not been made, at least a dual diagnosis should be considered.Yet again, the research backs this up but potentially accepting myself as 'gifted' rather than having a pathology is extremely hard. I feel quite emotionally overwhelmed.

Sorry, for the long post! I just don't feel that discussing this with friends will get me anywhere. I feel that understanding that 'bright' equates with issues is hard for them to understand. It's almost like they think it's a lack of discipline and that I should tell her that 'she's a child so she should act like one'. Pretty difficult when on many levels she's more thirteen or more inside, not eight. Not to mention has little confidence and suffers from depression and anxiety! Not sure a shouting match until she agrees to time out in her room is quite the way to go!!

Thanks for listening. And Grinity thank you so much for taking the time to write such long and helpful posts, the compassion shown by all of you is sincerely appreciated.

Thanks again,

K x

Oh, Grinity, I forgot to add that we go to meditation at the buddhist centre every week. DD's favourite is metta bhavana!

We've also been advised to arrange a reading test to back up the other scores and give a better profile, which sounds like a good idea to me. Just not sure where we're at with resiliency. DD is currently pretty low after the IQ testing. I guess they make it fun, certainly hope so! Think we may leave it a while though.

K x

Hi there. You should probably get a hold of the Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnoses book by Dr. James Webb. I would also highly recommend you read one called "Gifted Grownups" by Marylou Strenewski.

I just read up on that and it sounds like a perfect fit for your DD's perfectionism and your 'expanded awareness' of yourself too - can you work a 15 minute sit into your daily lives once or twice a day? The meditation I do involves listening or feeling the pulse or heartbeat and timing the breathing to the pulse-count. You might like to try adding that to everything else for more fun.

I also sprinkle a minute or two of deep slow breaths throughout the day when I need to get more compassion-energy to get through. Slowly over time this could become a powerful tool for your dd.

Heartbreaking to think of your DD behind the couch hiding from the 'hard questions.' Is homeschooling a possibility? What about a gradeskip? Or going up to higher-aged rooms for reading? If you homeschooled, would you be able to recruit her current teacher as a science tutor?

The afterschool activities sound good. Keep tweaking!
Grinity

K x - I don't know of any research on this, but it sure fits lots of personal stories I've heard. And I've experienced and hear that the reverse is true as well - getting into a challenging environment has helped my son and many others get better at dealing with challenge. I used my observations with my DS's interactions with challenge to gauge how hard to push the school over the years. I loved it when DS made friends at a summer camp with a kid who had learned to solve the Rubix cube in 3 weeks and my son set himself the goal of learning to solve in 10 days or less. Youtube has tutorials now, but it's still a big job to memorize all those steps. Believe me - DS tried to teach me! I was even more delighted when DS returned to school that year and was willing to show off to his friends his cube-ability. An adult friend who works at the school told us she saw DS walking between classes in 8th grade, a friend handing him a jumbled up cube as they passed in the hall and DS solving it as he walked to class, with a larger and larger crowd surrounding him as he walked. He got to class on time and solved the puzzle on the way. That sums up my picture of what I want for DS - 1) willing to try hard things, 2) willing to openly share his interests with his friends.

So the question is - what can be changed in her school environment to bring in the challenge? Can they allow her to attend gifted extension with kids two years older as a trial and see how that goes?

Love and More Love,
Grinity

dont worry

This is all very interesting to me. Thank you for posting about your experiences and thoughts everyone!

Our younger dd, age 10, has been IQ tested twice. Once her VCI was in the 99.7th and PRI was in the 99th and the second time, a year later, the PRI had dropped to the 75th if I recall correctly (VCI was similar to the first testing). Since she also did achievement testing @ the time of the second testing and it was more in line with the first IQ score, a psych she's been seeing recently felt that the first IQ score was likely more accurate. She has significant anxiety and was coming off a year in which her teacher kept telling us (and her) that she wasn't that bright and just "guessed well" whenever she scored highly on anything (including IQ).

B/c she is also a very divergent thinker, she has also spent a lot of time hearing that her answers are wrong as she approaches things so differently. The above quote is interesting to me for that reason b/c I can certainly see in our dd's case that she has learned a fear of failing b/c, in her mind, she has failed at a lot. It also hasn't helped to have an older HG sister who is a superstar student.

Hi all,

Sorry for not posting sooner, we've been seeing a gifted specialist and reading lots!

DD is a divergent thinker too, hence being taught in increments doesn't work for her. In effect she just knows the answers, but doesn't know how, so apparently we have to work backwards to get her to demonstrate how she got there. We'll see how we go.

I'm considering homeschooling for a term to help her resiliency levels but am concerned about removing her from school and then re immersing her, although it would more than likely be in a different year group as we've been advised she needs accelerating and also above level testing and then p/t homeschooling as a permanent feature of her education.

As always, this is all new to me and I'm a little overwhelmed with taking on the educational responsibility of a profoundly gifted (and profoundly sensitive!) child, even in the short term. Not to mention fighting the school, etc. etc. Oh, not to mention terrified of the though of no reprieve from her intensities. I know this sounds selfish but I'm built the same way and so I'm unsure who would be in tears the most!

Desperate for advice (again!), but feeling better that I'm finally getting a handle on what the problem is. Now I just need to figure out how to make life a little easier on us all!

Hope everyone is happy and well :o)

K x