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Posted By: Austin IQ Tests - 08/25/10 11:37 PM
I moved this discussion here.

Originally Posted by Buzz
Perhaps this is the wrong place to point this out, but the entire concept of "IQ" is deeply flawed. If "intelligence" could be boiled down to a single number it wouldn't be much good, would it? Human cognition is a very complex process and despite what psychologists like to believe, no test or battery of tests can describe it. We all possess a wide array of skills that reflect both our genetics and our interests and experience.

Although I don't agree with all of it, this is an interesting link: http://www.gifted.uconn.edu/siegle/research/Correlation/Intelligence.pdf
I also recommend Stephen Jay Gould's "Mismeasure of Man." Quick read and a very interesting book.

The fact that all of these tests are reported to be "reliable" -- i.e. there is consistency with scores early in life and later in life, is primarily a function of the fact that most "IQ" tests and their ilk test similar skills, not that the tests are "valid" and actually measure "intelligence." I will eat my words when someone demonstrates that these tests show high consistency with jazz improvisation, or creative writing, or the ability to reduce a complex process to a simple mathematical description.

"Success" is far more varied than testing, or academics for that matter, can really capture.

Moreover, I would argue that one should think carefully about labeling a child "gifted" or "intelligent." On the one hand, it could serve as a form of encouragement and that's not all bad. But the downside is that it is inherently a relative term -- i.e. "you are in the top 97%" and may foster a sense of entitlement and lack of empathy with others. It could also be a burden --setting out a specific form of achievement as a goal. It is not necessarily helpful for all children to be saddled with these types of goals.

The entire issue of a "gifted" label also makes no sense to me, as in my estimation the strategy for raising a child should be the same regardless of what you might label them (of course, I don't think this applies to major issues such as autism spectrum, etc.). If your son is interested in math and reading, then by all means encourage those interests and find the best environment to give him what he wants and needs. But bear in mind that much of these skills are just that -- skills that children develop by interest and practice, and not necessarily inherent abilities that set them apart from other children. Other kids are more interested in soccer or swimming or music and devote their time to these activities. They do these things more and practice them and get good at them. At this young age, this certainly doesn't mean that they will be academically limited in the future...

I always consider with some bemusement programs like "your baby can read" -- which claims to teach children at very young ages to read. I don't doubt their claims -- surely you can teach children many things early on as they are very smart. However, they cannot make a claim (and there is no evidence for) long-term improvements to reading. Simply because a child is precocious in one aspect of development does not mean that it will persist or transfer to the much wider skillset necessary for future life.

Sorry for waxing so abstract. The upshot, in my opinion, is that I wouldn't put too much stock in the scores of these tests. Even less in the subscores. Based on his environment (which probably IS in the top 90% in terms of stability and economics), you should expect to see scores on the "high" range. Your son could easily just be a normal kid who likes reading and math.
Posted By: Austin Re: IQ Tests - 08/26/10 12:07 AM


I agree that IQ is not everything, (Self-discipline has a higher correlation with success.) but it is a precondition to functioning at a high level intellectually. There is a very strong correlation between IQ and the ability to learn and to reason.

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I will eat my words when someone demonstrates that these tests show high consistency with jazz improvisation, or creative writing, or the ability to reduce a complex process to a simple mathematical description.

Madonna's IQ is 140 and Shakira's is 140. Neal Pert's is 150.

Stephen Hawking's is 160. Most top mathematicians are >160.

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Moreover, I would argue that one should think carefully about labeling a child "gifted" or "intelligent." On the one hand, it could serve as a form of encouragement and that's not all bad. But the downside is that it is inherently a relative term -- i.e. "you are in the top 97%" and may foster a sense of entitlement and lack of empathy with others.

All of these are assertions with no evidence to back them up.

First, its a fact these kids learn faster and retain greater detail. Second, its a fact that these kids have a higher level of sensitivity to others and to most situations. Third, knowing their high abilities will motivate them and their parents to seek out much more challenging schools and choose more demanding professions. Fourth, the documentation is needed where advocacy is required to ensure these kids get what they deserve.

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The entire issue of a "gifted" label also makes no sense to me, as in my estimation the strategy for raising a child should be the same regardless of what you might label them
...

But bear in mind that much of these skills are just that -- skills that children develop by interest and practice, and not necessarily inherent abilities that set them apart from other children.

If kid can do calculus at age 12 and can earn their PHD at 20 years of age, that makes them no different from other kids? These kids are INHERENTLY different because they are very, very capable academically from other kids - both from their level of interest and their level of motivation - not to mention their talents.

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However, they cannot make a claim (and there is no evidence for) long-term improvements to reading. Simply because a child is precocious in one aspect of development does not mean that it will persist or transfer to the much wider skillset necessary for future life.

Reading is not a requirement for success in life? Learning via reading is not conducive to success in life? There are many, many studies showing the effect of literacy on success in life. And many many studies showing the effect on learning if literacy is achieved early.

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The upshot, in my opinion, is that I wouldn't put too much stock in the scores of these tests. Even less in the subscores. Based on his environment (which probably IS in the top 90% in terms of stability and economics), you should expect to see scores on the "high" range. Your son could easily just be a normal kid who likes reading and math.

LOL.

So, you are a licensed child psychologist? A pediatrician? A published researcher? A teacher? A college professor? Do you even have any kids?
















Posted By: Cricket2 Re: IQ Tests - 08/26/10 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by Austin
Madonna's IQ is 140 and Shakira's is 140. Neal Pert's is 150.

Stephen Hawking's is 160. Most top mathematicians are >160.
This is a side conversation and I do generally agree that high IQ isn't just some random number and a prerequisite for a "gifted" label. However, may I ask where you are getting these numbers? I see a lot of IQ numbers thrown around on the internet for celebrities and politicians. I don't know that any of these individuals have actually ever taken an IQ test let alone shared the #s publically. I also don't know that any person's IQ is an exact # so much as a range.
Posted By: Austin Re: IQ Tests - 08/26/10 04:42 AM
Originally Posted by Cricket2
Originally Posted by Austin
Madonna's IQ is 140 and Shakira's is 140. Neal Pert's is 150.

Stephen Hawking's is 160. Most top mathematicians are >160.
However, may I ask where you are getting these numbers? I see a lot of IQ numbers thrown around on the internet for celebrities and politicians. I don't know that any of these individuals have actually ever taken an IQ test let alone shared the #s publically. I also don't know that any person's IQ is an exact # so much as a range.

I know that most of these people have stated their IQ in interviews. Many are members of Mensa as well.
Posted By: Buzz Re: IQ Tests - 08/26/10 08:36 AM
"So, you are a licensed child psychologist? A pediatrician? A published researcher? A teacher? A college professor? Do you even have any kids?"

I think now of an interview I heard recently with Noam Chomsky (no slouch himself) where he said something to the effect of "I don't think my opinion is any more valid than a great number of people in many professions. I happen to have the luxury of spending all day reading, but my ability to think and reason is fundamentally the same as everyone else's..."

Whether I am those things or not doesn't really matter seems to me (although if I were not a parent I would probably be worrying about other things).

"First, its a fact these kids learn faster and retain greater detail. Second, its a fact that these kids have a higher level of sensitivity to others and to most situations. Third, knowing their high abilities will motivate them and their parents to seek out much more challenging schools and choose more demanding professions. Fourth, the documentation is needed where advocacy is required to ensure these kids get what they deserve."

Talk about assertions without evidence to back them up! There is no way that these generalizations can be true. This is one of the great dangers of developing and deploying labels.

What's important for children are choices and opportunities -- not using simple measures of limited cognitive abilities to constrain life or career paths.

Also, simply because a test or tests are correlated with deficits in function linked to specific conditions does not necessarily imply that higher scores in the tests are associated with abnormally high cognitive function. Simply because the lack of something (think insulin) is harmful doesn't mean that its excess is necessarily beneficial.

Yes, there are outliers and savants. Yes, they probably score highly on most tests that they could be given. But, again, this is not strong evidence that the tests measure any kind of cognitive ability -- simply that they may be correlated with something that is NECESSARY for high cognitive function. What is SUFFICIENT -- who knows -- and I'm sure there are plenty of examples of people who are very intelligent and successful who do poorly on IQ tests. They probably just don't take them and advertise them so much...

As for the high correlation between IQ and the ability to learn and reason... this begs the question if the measures of learning and reasoning used are similar to those used for "IQ." Yes, this can establish a correlation. No, this does not provide evidence that IQ is a good measure of cognition.
Posted By: Cricket2 Re: IQ Tests - 08/26/10 12:14 PM
Originally Posted by Austin
Originally Posted by Cricket2
Originally Posted by Austin
Madonna's IQ is 140 and Shakira's is 140. Neal Pert's is 150.

Stephen Hawking's is 160. Most top mathematicians are >160.
However, may I ask where you are getting these numbers? I see a lot of IQ numbers thrown around on the internet for celebrities and politicians. I don't know that any of these individuals have actually ever taken an IQ test let alone shared the #s publically. I also don't know that any person's IQ is an exact # so much as a range.

I know that most of these people have stated their IQ in interviews. Many are members of Mensa as well.
Given the responses thus far I can see that this thread is going to be contentious so I should probably bow out, but I feel the need to address this first.

Mensa requirements are 130. I also don't tend to believe everything Madonna or Shakira says in an interview. I can state that my IQ is 140. It doesn't make it so.

As a member of Mensa myself I do also have access to the online searchable member directory. All current members names are listed there. They may omit all other details (address, etc.) but I believe that their names would be there at least. No one with the first name Shakira is listed as a member. There are a very few Madonnas but I am quite certain based upon last names, ages, and addresses they they aren't the Madonna. There is also no Steven Hawking or Neal Pert.
Posted By: Floridama Re: IQ Tests - 08/26/10 02:37 PM
I think that many of us would not feel the need to use the gifted label if our kids' needs were being met in the school system. It is not my fault that child would rather read a history book over Dr. Suess or gets aggravated when the school spends weeks teaching the principles of division when she figured it out her own years before.

I agree 100% that IQ is only one measure of person, and when used alone it is low measure of a person. Which is why Davison requires more than IQ for proof of extreme abilities. But the fact remains, no matter how extreme my child's abilities are, unless she gets the minimum IQ score, required by the school to be labeled gifted or ESE, her needs will be lumped in with what's best for majority. So, in our case the label is needed, not for bragging rights, but for the legal guarantee of an appropriate education.

I believe that many of us with precocious children don't like the labels either. In a perfect world our education system would put more focus on the individual and less on sorting out the low and high from the average, which would eliminate the need for labels entirely. However, I don't that happening in the near the future and we don't live in a perfect world.

I am curious do you also disagree with a low IQ score being used to identify a ESE child?
Posted By: DeHe Re: IQ Tests - 08/26/10 03:46 PM
What I always find interesting about these debates about the use of IQ tests which has been mentioned elsewhere is the willingness to use tests and measures to identify the LD but also the willingness to use tests and measures everywhere else, including sports, and even in the arts, but not with giftedness. Posts and blogs of these kind always say, sure there are outliers, but then discount the presence of them. And by extension discount parents fighting for them.

Even if you want to argue that people with high IQ scores are simply good at taking tests - that's a measure. Its real and quantifiable and not a fluke. How can it not be meaningful when a 10 year old scores higher on the SATs than comparable 18 year olds. It means something is different about that individual and that difference relates to the absorption of knowledge because if they had not absorbed the knowledge they would not be able to do better than their age cohort as well as better than older individuals with more time to master skills and knowledge.

It is so strange to me that you mostly get this argument from very bright people - as if they worry they can't achieve or succeed in life because some other people learn faster, see more complex connection or any of the other myriad things IQ tests measures. No one feels that way about the star athlete or the violin virtuoso.

DeHe
Posted By: Buzz Re: IQ Tests - 08/26/10 05:47 PM
I certainly didn't come to be disputatious -- but as the result of a chance Google search (sorry). What touched a nerve for me is the realization that I may soon have to deal with this issue, and some of the assumptions that I'm seeing were a bit alarming.

I read through the Hoagies guide -- and although I am normally a big fan of quantifying, classifying, and systematizing things -- I make a BIG exception when it comes to people. We have a natural tendency (biologically-based, likely) to divide people into our tribe and others, and make generalizations about the superiority of our tribe (i.e. we're in the top 3%, and we share this identity). A large component of cultural progress has involved overcoming these tendencies and seeing people more and more as individuals.

Therein lies the conflict I see here. Advocating for the unique needs of children by grouping them under the label of 'gifted.' It's a common strategy for many identity politics movements, and in my view this is a very Faustian bargain.

The reason I am unmoved by many of the guides and descriptions is that it seems like the very elaborate world of diamond grading -- the four "Cs.' There is an entire industry devoted to developing rigorous, quantitative tests of diamond quality and then assigning values to the results. Very systematic. Very organized. Experts and authorities to rely on. The whole deal. It's a nice system, designed to obscure the fact that what is really important is how the stone looks on your finger. Simply because tests are real and reliable doesn't mean we should use them, or that they are valid.

The other big issue is that it's not clear to me that early, rapid learning necessarily implies what people seem to be arguing that it implies. Simply going faster doesn't necessarily imply going farther. If this were the case, then we would now all likely be working for Asian companies, where students progress very rapidly along regimented, academic curricula. My own experience is that products of these educational systems think differently, yes, but there are costs as well.

Development is not a simple, linear race but a number of interacting processes that proceed at their own rates in different people. Trying to force a "gifted" identity onto this, it seems to me, is not true to the process and could actually limit, instead of expand, the possibilities for the individual children.
Posted By: Cricket2 Re: IQ Tests - 08/26/10 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by Buzz
Simply going faster doesn't necessarily imply going farther.
See, and I don't view gifted as a matter of speed. Perhaps that it b/c my kids are less fast than they are different. Dd11 could be viewed as going faster in that she is very academically advanced by all measures. However, she regularly takes longer than the teacher intended on her homework assignments and is more of a deep processor than a fast processor.

Dd9 is more divergent and creative than she is fast. She sees the end result without getting the intermediary steps and she often devises her own ways to solve problems that, more often than not, work quite well. Neither of my girls tested above average on the processing speed component of the intelligence tests they were given.

I, on the other hand, am straight fast. I always finished assignments, tests, everything in half the time allotted or less. I wouldn't view myself as more intelligent than my kids, though, and I would venture to say that my eldest at least is brighter than am I.
Posted By: Austin Re: IQ Tests - 08/26/10 07:02 PM
Originally Posted by Cricket2
As a member of Mensa myself I do also have access to the online searchable member directory. All current members names are listed there. They may omit all other details (address, etc.) but I believe that their names would be there at least. No one with the first name Shakira is listed as a member. There are a very few Madonnas but I am quite certain based upon last names, ages, and addresses they they aren't the Madonna. There is also no Steven Hawking or Neal Pert.

Sorry I was not precise. By "many of these people" I meant to refer to top artists and intellectuals in general.

Here is one source. The * indicate "confirmed member of Mensa."

http://knol.google.com/k/iq-scores-of-famous-people-past-and-present#
Posted By: Grinity Re: IQ Tests - 08/26/10 07:18 PM
Austin,

Thanks so much for moving this topic to it's own thread. That was very wise of you and compassionate to the OP (original poster) for the test results thread.

Originally Posted by Buzz
Perhaps this is the wrong place to point this out, but the entire concept of "IQ" is deeply flawed.

Buzz - Good noticing that this your concerns were way off topic to the active conversation. I'm glad that you have been able to face a bit your concerns that when your child(ren) enter the school system there may be issues. I'm wondering if you read many of the posts here before you jumped in with your observations.

I strongly recommend that if you have ideas that you think will bother people that you start a new topic, with it's own title, and say a short paragraph about what your concern is.

Such as:
"Historically IQ tests have been used so thoughtlessly. Is this still going on today? Does this bother anyone else here? Can you tell me some good and bad results of IQ testing in your life?"

or -

"I'm the parent of a preschooler who I think might be gifted, but I hate the idea of labling my child. I hate the lable gifted in particular. Does anyone else hate that lable? What have been some ways that the lable has had good or bad results in your life?"

Then, as the thread picks up steam, you can share some of your observations. We like page-long response, just not in the middle of someone else's thread.

You might not agree with everything that everyone here says, but you might find that this is a useful place to think a bit in the company of others who have had some similar experiences.

Want my IQ test?
If, as a parent, you've stopped talking to fellow parents about what you child does or says because they look at you funny, or accuse you of lying, then come over here to the Gifted Issues Discussion Board and get what parents of more normally developing kids get at the bus stop. If people in the grocery store yell at you because you preschooler is reading the food lables, then come over here. If you child is asking deep questions about death, and the meaning of life, or just plain behaving in ways that 'regular parenting books' don't seem to cover, come over here. If you like it here, then stay here. That's MY IQ test.

The Internet is a big place. Supporting parents is what we do here. Looking back at our lives, and our family member's lives through the gifted lens is what we do too, sometimes, because we need to do that to move forward as parents.

I know that the name of this forum is 'Gifted Issues Discussion Forum' and appologise - it really isn't a perfect name, as we focus on 'Help and Support with Issues Parents of Gifted Children often Face'

I'm really curious if there was a gifted program when you were going through school. I'm wondering if you are one of the ones for whom tests don't work, particularly group IQ tests, which we bemoan here on a regular basis. I'm wondering if you are one of the ones who got into a Gifted program and then was so dissapointed that it provided so little. I'm wondering if you have been thinking about homeschooling, how old your chid(ren) is, and what brought you to idly Google search the term gifted, and 1000 more personal things about what your life has been like, and what your hopes are for your family.

Love and More Love,
Grinity
Posted By: CAMom Re: IQ Tests - 08/26/10 07:38 PM
Originally Posted by Buzz
The other big issue is that it's not clear to me that early, rapid learning necessarily implies what people seem to be arguing that it implies. Simply going faster doesn't necessarily imply going farther. If this were the case, then we would now all likely be working for Asian companies, where students progress very rapidly along regimented, academic curricula. My own experience is that products of these educational systems think differently, yes, but there are costs as well.

Development is not a simple, linear race but a number of interacting processes that proceed at their own rates in different people.


As an adult who was identified PG as a child and whose parents chose the faster isn't better route, I do hear what you are saying. My parents didn't allow me to enter the program that would have put me in college at 12. They wanted me to be well-rounded, creative and "grow" into myself.

Was that the right option? Who knows. It's not like I can go back and try the other way! I know that I grew up feeling like a freak, an oddity who knew the answers quite often better than the teacher, who had few friends until I learned to hide my intelligence and who was shocked to find that I had to study in college to get an A. Did their plan take me farther? Again, who knows. I have a teaching credential and work as a school administrator. My life dream? No, but it makes me happy.

The term gifted makes some people bristle. I understand that, as do most people here. We've heard "all children are gifted" or "all children have gifts but open their packages at different times."

However, none of that addresses the immediate problem many of our children face. My son is sitting in a class with curriculum he mastered 2-3 years ago. Today he will learn place value of 1,000. Three weeks ago he was graphing functions at home.

I think you'll find if you read enough here and do your research that nearly ALL of us would advocate for education that is student-focused and targets individuals, no matter their level. The most damaging assumption is that NO children need anything different from the group. That lessons delivered because that's what's next in the book are required instruction.

If I have to stick a label on my son so that someone will pay attention, I'm happy to do so. A rising tide floats all boats and I can only hope that attention given to him changes the face of education in his entire classroom, perhaps even his school.
Posted By: Austin Re: IQ Tests - 08/26/10 07:54 PM
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The reason I am unmoved by many of the guides and descriptions is that it seems like the very elaborate world of diamond grading -- the four "Cs.'

Diamond grading exists so that the diamond market will function. That is the only reason. I think you are right to imply that IQ tests commoditize education.

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The other big issue is that it's not clear to me that early, rapid learning necessarily implies what people seem to be arguing that it implies.

A number of psychologists do have long-term studies that are ongoing on how "gifted" kids progress. There are a number of broader qualitative measures on this.

Quote
Simply going faster doesn't necessarily imply going farther. If this were the case, then we would now all likely be working for Asian companies, where students progress very rapidly along regimented, academic curricula. My own experience is that products of these educational systems think differently, yes, but there are costs as well.

There is a difference between learning things already known versus exploring new territory. The map is not the territory. Once the map runs out, you get lost.

Quote
Development is not a simple, linear race but a number of interacting processes that proceed at their own rates in different people. Trying to force a "gifted" identity onto this, it seems to me, is not true to the process and could actually limit, instead of expand, the possibilities for the individual children.

I think learning is an OODA loop, too.

What you will find by reading the literature others have shown to you is that the tests serve as a fact-creation tool. While the test may miss some kids, they do allow other students to be freed from languishing in classes where they know the subject cold and have for many years. They are freed to move to other classes and learn new material and to work with kids whose minds are as mature as theirs.

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/iowa_accel_scale.htm

In this respect, they really do expand the possibilities for these kids.

And some educators are using the tests to try to ID issues. For instance, several school districts now routinely test kids with discipline issues. Many are found to be GT and are acting out due to frustration. Other districts use the tests to ID kids whose parents do not advocate for them.

--

Some personal history:


I jumped from 7th grade to 10th grade and I really enjoyed school for the first time in years. I used to sit in the back and read during class. I walled myself off from the teachers and students because I had no reason to interact during class. What enabled this jump was a test administered a week after I started 7th grade. I was liberated because that test allowed the school to place me properly.

Do the tests tell the whole story? No. Most of my former AP classmates from HS now have PHDs or MDs. Three classmates are near the top of their profession in the cities in which they live. But they had nowhere near my test scores nor could they match me in class nor did they have my wide range of interests. But they are hugely successful!!!

But, they were all ability grouped from the 9th grade on in a very competitive program. THAT was the critical factor. What is funny, is that I was not tested in this school district and was placed in the bottom group by the counselor who just looked at me. I went back to him the first week and told him I wanted to be in the honors group. Imagine if I had not self-advocated? Wouldn't a test be apropos to at least PLACE someone?

Go back and read my first post on this forum for more stories about schools and misplacement.

http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....cs/18674/My_Recollections.html#Post18674

If you check the first few posts of most of the posters on here, you will see similar trajectories.

Reading others' stories and reading all the posts on this forum and reading the many books suggested on here has brought me a lot of peace by allowing me to understand my life much better.


Posted By: Philosopher Re: IQ Tests - 08/26/10 08:07 PM
Note that none of the scores of mathematicians and physicists on

http://knol.google.com/k/iq-scores-of-famous-people-past-and-present#

are confirmed. I am an academic and I know Hawking personally (very well). The IQ often quoted and quoted here is not the result of any IQ test he has ever taken.

I also find the attempts to estimate and compare the IQs of scientists who lived in different historical periods somewhat ridiculous, and not even in line with modern assessments of their work.
Posted By: Cricket2 Re: IQ Tests - 08/26/10 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by Austin
Here is one source. The * indicate "confirmed member of Mensa."

http://knol.google.com/k/iq-scores-of-famous-people-past-and-present#
I know that I am beating a dead horse. It is a personality flaw of mine. I am bothered by the number of 160-200+ IQ numbers listed there, however. Modern tests don't return numbers like that. Maybe all of the older composers and presidents had IQs at the 99.9th percentile, but I doubt it. I don't doubt that Mozart was gifted. Do I think that someone gave him an IQ test? Probably not. Then again, no one needed to. I think that's why, as someone indicated earlier, gifted is not all about IQ and why DYS, for instance, requires more than an IQ score for admission.

Mensa, on the other hand, only wants your IQ in the 130+ range for admission. I joined solely b/c I thought they might have some useful info for me in learning how to best support my eldest dd when we figured out what was going on with her. I remain a member b/c I've met some good friends through Mensa and some of us get together regularly (and I enjoy the monthly publication).

FWIW, just b/c a website says that these people are confirmed members of Mensa, doesn't make it so. Just looking over the nine show biz people they list, only one of them is listed in the member directory as a member. One of the people listed there without the confirmation star is a Mensa member. None of the famous people in sports nor famous musicians are. I'll allow for the fact that the Welsh wrestler might be a member of an international Mensa chapter and his name, thus, wouldn't appear on American Mensa's roster. The member directory does note that all current members must have their names listed there although other information is at their discretion.

Posted By: Cricket2 Re: IQ Tests - 08/26/10 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Note that none of the scores of mathematicians and physicists on

http://knol.google.com/k/iq-scores-of-famous-people-past-and-present#

are confirmed. I am an academic and I know Hawking personally (very well). The IQ often quoted and quoted here is not the result of any IQ test he has ever taken.

I also find the attempts to estimate and compare the IQs of scientists who lived in different historical periods somewhat ridiculous, and not even in line with modern assessments of their work.
Thank you. You replied while I was typing up my long last reply smile.
Posted By: Wren Re: IQ Tests - 08/26/10 08:23 PM
I just heard something interesting, as the US struggles to be competitive going forward and create jobs.

There is an annual super computing conference in San Francisco every year. It was started by some of the biggest names and brightest minds in computing 21 years ago. And most of those were American males who are around 60 now.

The younger members are now mostly from China, India. I was told by one of the founding members that there wasn't one woman from America. The few women were from China, mostly, India, Japan and a couple from Scandinavia.

He said that the original members realized that the brain trust in America is dissapearing and moving to China.

Ren
Posted By: knute974 Re: IQ Tests - 08/26/10 08:28 PM
I have only had IQ testing done on one of my three kids. For DD8, IQ and achievement testing was truly beneficial. DD8 was diagnosed as HG, dyslexic and dysgraphic. The testing helped me provide advocacy for her. It helped the teacher understand that while DD seemed to be an average kid (except in math), she is anything but average. It encouraged her teacher to try new things and find out that there was a whole lot more going on in that little head. Now, DD is in a gifted center program with 504 accommodations. Without those tests, we probably would have kept her in a regular ed classroom and watched her frustration grow without understanding why. We did not test her for bragging rights -- we haven't told people in our circle her IQ. We tested to gain information and insight into our child.

Like many people on this forum, my kid's IQ is in the 99.9 percentile. Finding this out was a bit of a shock. I have appreciated this forum as a place where it is okay to talk about my kid as "gifted" and all of the baggage that comes with it.
Posted By: Buzz Re: IQ Tests - 08/27/10 12:11 AM
No, I didn't read much of the forum before posting. I don't really participate in forums or social networking sites -- I apologize for my poor "netiquette". Not sure what set me off -- but I'm sorry for intruding on your forum...

Truth be told, I'm just a relatively normal person. A late bloomer -- not identified as having any particular academic potential. And yet, through decisions later in life, have reached a place that one might expect to be populated by the "gifted."

And what do I find here? All types of people from all types of backgrounds. What they have in common is that they WANT to be doing what they're doing, are committed to it, work hard, and have a broad range of skills.

By all means, advocate for education that provides an opportunity for everyone to realize their full potential. But beware of idenity politics.

Best of luck,

Buzz out.
Posted By: Grinity Re: IQ Tests - 08/27/10 02:40 AM
Buzz,
Lots of us here were late bloomers. Kids don't necessarily realize that the reason that they are 'turned off' from school is that they want MORE. If we weren't ourselves late bloomers then we have siblings who were late bloomers, some of whom grew up to be 'never-bloomers.'

So if you ever look at the kid(s) and think "I don't know where or how they got 'it' but they sure seem to have 'it' - I wonder what to do now...." Remember that we are here and willing to try to help you figure out how to 'do right' by your kid(s) given the resources available.

You might be 'relatively normal' and still be gifted enough that you need that identity some day, it just depends who is in the denominator that you are comparing yourself to.

Love and More Love,
Grinity
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