Hi. We are looking for advice interpreting some recent test scores and their educational implications for our son. The testing was provided free by the town and administered by a school psychologist in cooperation with two physical therapists. We received the results at a meeting with everyone and therefore were not really prepared to ask them the many questions we now have after having had time to read the report.
Our interest in the testing was in the hope of establishing documentation that would assist in our son�s individualized needs being met. He is already (Pre-K) downplaying and concealing his abilities in the classroom, and his teachers think he should focus on bringing his physical delays up to speed with his classmates. He likes playing at school but wants to know when he can go to college and start learning things in the classroom. Right now, he does most of his learning independently, at home, from books.
We assumed it was understood by the school psychologist that his inability to write would be worked around in doing the cognitive testing; after all, she had ordered the PT testing because of the suspected fine motor delay. He does math in his head because he doesn�t write yet (he might have inherited his mom�s dysgraphia). Anyway, he is smarter than all of us: he spoke in full sentences by one year, sight read before age two, chapter books by age 3, has trouble keeping decimals in the right place while doing math in his head, composes song lyrics and poems, and routinely poses complex ethical questions. The school psychologist said she had never seen scores like this before, which was supposed to make us happy, but hardly boosted our confidence in the results. We could, and probably will, press her for a better explanation of the scores, but this week, it was all we could do to get her to print out the subtest standard scores for the W-J III, half of which came back �NA� as he was age 4y 10mo and she said that the computer would not let her process a child under age 5. So the W-J III scores were entered as though he were 5, and we still didn�t get the relevant scores that we needed to apply to the Young Scholars� Program.
He also kept growing irritated by the test and rolling on the floor. He said he had fun but that the psychologist asked a lot of questions that grownups usually know the answers to. He seemed stumped at various points when a simple answer was called for, such as �What covers a turtle?� Apparently, �scales� was not the desired answer despite being scientifically accurate. (We looked it up and he was right).
If anyone knows how balance and vision might factor into learning/testing issues, we�d be interested in that, too. The PT couldn�t tell if his clumsiness was the result of balance issues or poor vision. He has no history of ear infections, but he does wear prescription glasses for nearsightedness and to correct a wandering eye. We have those results, too, if anyone is interested.
His physical impairments, combined with his tendency to be contemplative, dragged down his processing speed quotient, and we suspect that it negatively impacted a number of other areas.
The W-J III score breakdown is as follows:
CLUSTER/Test Age Equivalen t Grade Equivalent Standard Score
Letter-Word Identification 9-0 3.7 187 (184-190)
Reading Fluency 7-1 1.9 NA
Word Attack 10-4 5.1 168 (166-171)
Spelling 5-11 K.4 119 (114-124)
Broad Reading 7-10 2.5 NA
Basic Reading Skills 9-4 4.0 186 (184-188)
Calculation 5-6 K.3 NA
Math Fluency 5-7 K.3 NA
Applied Problems 7-2 1.8 138 (133-143)
Quantitative Concepts 5-5 K.2 111 (102-119)
Broad Math 6-0 K.8 NA
Math Calculation Skills 5-6 K.3 NA
Math Reasoning 6-3 1.0 127 (122-132)
Academic Knowledge 8-0 2.8 137 (132-143)
Academic Skills 6-11 1.5 NA
Academic Knowledge 8-0 2.8 137 (132-143)
WPPSI-III scores are as follows:
VERBAL Scaled Score
Information 19
Vocabulary 17
Word Reasoning 15
(Comprehension) (13)
(Similarities) (19)
PERFORMANCE
Block Design 16
Matrix Reasoning 16
Picture Concepts 16
PROCESSING SPEED
Coding 10
(Symbol Search) 10
GENERAL LANGUAGE COMPOSITE
(Receptive Language) (19)
(Picture Vocabulary) (17)
WPPSI-III COMPOSITE SCORES
Verbal Intelligence Quotient 143
Performance Intelligence Quotient 137
Processing Speed Quotient 100
Full Scale Intelligence Quotient 139
General Language Composite 147
Hi,
I'll let someone else who knows more about tests help you there. Just want to say welcome and hi!
Even without the test scores, your description already shows that he is highly gifted. He is an advance learner.
Not sure if you've gone to Hoagies website, google for Hoagies, which has lots of information about Giftedness. It is a good place to start. Maybe you've read lots already because you already got your son tested which is definitely a good start!
I've known other children with dysgraphia. That shouldn't hold them back from learning intellectually stimulating and challenging work. Recommendations I've heard of include yes, work a bit at it but really -- handwriting is difficult for even normal children all the way up to Grade 2 (8 year old). A 4-6 year old isn't really expected to write neatly. I know I'm just guessing/jumping in here and perhaps your situation is different.
He will experience frustration because he himself realizes that his hand/written output cannot match his brain/verbal output. Ways to manage it would be to help him write out his thoughts while he dictates, and/or type out his thoughts. This will be ongoing until he can learn to type. Lots of kids with dysgraphia start to type or have someone help with the output to get the ideas/stories out. The children that are learning to type that I've seen are 6-8 years old. Not sure if you're child is ready. I'm just mentioning it.
Sorry, I'm rambling. Should let others with more experience re: dysgraphia to give more suggestions.
There is a lot to learn about gifted children. Feel free to keep asking questions here. I've found this place to be a very supportive place.
Thank you for the welcoming words, Jesse.
We know of hoagies, we agree; it is a great site. We are hoping for some insight into the asynchronous scores. We were perhaps vague and long winded. Some of our questions are:
1) Is there a test that accurately gauges math in non-writers?
2) Is there a test that doesn't count deeper processing as if it were the same as "slow" processing?
3) Is it possible that this FSIQ is accurate at all considering that the processing, coding, math portions were written and he gave up on them quickly?
4) Do all parents think their kid's FSIQ should more closely resemble the high scores?
1) Is there a test that accurately gauges math in non-writers?
2) Is there a test that doesn't count deeper processing as if it were the same as "slow" processing?
3) Is it possible that this FSIQ is accurate at all considering that the processing, coding, math portions were written and he gave up on them quickly?
4) Do all parents think their kid's FSIQ should more closely resemble the high scores?
Sounds to me, that your son is very gifted and maybe the tests dont for a variety of reasons accurately reflect his abilities. To answer your questions.
1. I think SB 5 is felt better by some for mathy kids. My dd isnt what I would call a mathy kid and did do the SB 5. I still think her results are pretty valid.
2. SB 5 - I seem to remember isnt timed and with WISC IV you can calculate the GAI which does away with processing speeds etc.
Here is a neat article about different tests:
http://www.neiu.edu/~ourgift/Archives/Kearney_Gilman/Gilman_Closing_Statement.htm
Here is a link in Davidsons about different types of tests:
http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/browse_resources_171.aspx3. Sure, it is very possible that your son's abilities might be better captured on a different test and with a different tester.
4. I am not sure, what you mean? But for my dd, I did read Dr Ruf's book and tracked my dd's early years abilities - so I had a LOG in my mind that I thought dd could be. In the end the results of my dd's testing did reasonably match up the LOG that I had in my head. However, I know other people who have had their children tested and sometimes the results have been way better than they expected and sometimes worse.
If you havent read Dr Ruf's book, maybe that is a good book to have a read through and re-think testing strategies, especially as your son sounds like he is interested in academics.
CakeBread:
Thank you for the suggestions. We read that neat article and intend to seek out a behavioral optometrist in our area. The explanation of the SB-5 sounds like it might provide results more in line with the abilities he routinely demonstrates. In the short term, we plan to try to understand and address the weaker areas to eliminate some of the frustration he feels. We don't want him to lose his love of math while his little hands are catching up. We're not sure what you mean by a "log" as we have not read Doctor Ruf's book, but we compared our son to a "table of developmental milestones contrasting normal children with gifted children at 30% advancement" and he consistently lags behind or at normal ability in general and fine motor, and was advanced well beyond the 30% gifted in all of the cognitive/language examples. So we were rather underwhelmed and confused by an FSIQ several deviations below our estimates and those of family members (their own IQ's and estimates of his).
Thank you again.
Thank you for the link, matmum.
We liked the sound of Dr. Ruf's opening remarks about different kids needing different things, but the idea that some amount of intellect or will power would enable �ALL� children of any LOG to overcome/mask any physical disabilities doesn't sit well. After some consideration, we are questioning the usefulness of criteria that do not distinguish between physical and cognitive abilities, while purportedly determining levels of giftedness. Sigh. We will list his LOG issues to see if anyone else has a kid like ours. He most closely fits in LOG 5, but for his motor skills, and (over?) protective parents.
LOG 5 milestones reached by our son:
All were alert at birth or soon thereafter.
Books were a favorite interest of most before three or four months.
All appeared to understand parental directives between birth and four months.
Most knew and said some words by 5� to 9 months
All had large receptive vocabularies by 8-9 months.
Half spoke well before age one.
All spoke at near-adult level complexity by age two.
Many recognized and picked out specific numbers and letters by 10 -14 months.
All knew colors, numbers, the alphabet and shapes by about 15 months.
All �read� words on signs and simple books and labels before two years.
Many read numerous sight words by 15 months.
All memorized books read to them before 20 months.
Many could rote count to10, many higher, by 13 to 20 months.
High interest in factual information, how things work, science, by two years.
Most read simple books, �board� books, by age 18-24 months.
Most grasp skip counting, backwards, addition, subtraction, more or less, by two years.
All read children�s chapter books by age 3� to 4� years.
All showed interest in pure facts, almanacs, dictionaries, etc. by age 3�.
All question the reality of Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy by 3 or 4 years.
All understand abstract math concepts and basic math functions before age four.
All read six or more years beyond grade level by age six.
Attempts/interests, somewhat hampered by physical limitations
The majority independently looked at (yes) and turned pages (with difficulty) of books before 6 months.
Most played with shape sorters before 11 months (early area of fine motor frustration).
Most were good at puzzles before 12 months, 35+ piece puzzles by 15 months (orally directing/requesting physical assistance).
All showed musical aptitude before 18 months (he cared a great deal about music at that age �this CD, please, song number eight�, but he still does not play an instrument at age 4.11).
Areas very hampered by physical limitations
Most could print letters, numbers, words, and their names between 16 and 24 months. (Still struggling at age 4.11).
All were independent on computer by age two years, all keyboarding before three. (Orally directed others on use of computer at age two, if keyboarding is typing then it is still a frustration at age 4.11).
Areas parentally restricted
All read any level fiction and nonfiction by 4� to 5 years. (No. Not under our watch. There are subjects/themes that are beyond inappropriate for children this age, especially emotionally/ethically gifted ones).
All played adult level games � ages 12 and up � by the time they were 3� to 4. (No. We accommodate his distaste for competitive games; he plays with Scrabble and Boggle pieces, but does not like to have �winners� and �losers�. Some adults find that sort of �fun� to be anything but. He invents new cooperative �rules�.
Anyone else have a kid like this?
What testing is used to reflect intellect unimpaired by the physical realm?
I think many of us have ideas but I know I am hesitant to share just because of his age. So much of what you are talking about can in real life be normal for kids, especially gifted kids who don't necessarily have the interest in some of the physical aspects of childhood. Then throw dysgraphia into the picture and your timeline gets even murkier.
What does the school PT say about his fine and gross motor skills?
A DPT and an OTR/L did a PDMS-2 and a Beery-Buktenica Developmental Test of Visual Motor Integration. Here are the highlights: �X was an impulsive boy with a short attention span for activities that he perceived as difficult or challenging. He enjoyed the motor activities and therefore frequently left the table to dive into the ball pit. �
PDMS Gross Motor Quotient = 74 (below average)
Fine Motor Quotient = 94 (average)
Neuromuscular Status: �Low end of Normal�inability to jump forward or down from heights without falling over. Balance and equilibrium appear immature.�
Functional mobility: �Able to ascend stair reciprocally with support of a railing and descend stairs step-to-step.�
Gross Motor Skills: �X�s ball skills appeared weak. Ran instead of galloping.�
Fine Motor/Perceptual Motor/Visual Motor: �Demonstrated bilateral motor coordination (opened and closed jar lids, buttoned and unbuttoned one-inch buttons). X readily completed tasks as means of measuring motor planning abilities.�
�Utilizing his right hand with a pronated fisted grip�difficulty with the directional changes required to produce the square, and rushed when asked to trace along straight and irregular pathways. Was capable of tracing along the pathways when working at a slower pace. Required assistance to grasp and operate the (preschool) scissors. X�s fine motor skills fell within the average range for his chronological age; however, he could use additional practice with drawing shapes and simple pictures, tracing along pathways and mazes, and manipulation of scissors with both arms in a thumbs-up position.�
Beery-Buktenica:
Raw VMI 12
Standard Score 95
Scaled Score 9
"Summary: Active, impulsive boy who needed frequent redirection to task�difficulty with higher level skills that require more balance and coordination. During some of the activities, it was difficult to assess whether or not some of his struggles were vision-related (? depth perception issues). X would benefit from participation in structured gross motor activities that focus on improving his strength, balance, coordination and ball skills. Although X�s fine motor skills are not at the same level as his cognitive abilities, he demonstrated age-appropriate fine motor, perceptual-motor, and visual-motor skills. The skills requiring additional practice and experience can be presented and monitored at school and at home. Since X recognizes that these activities are challenging and less desirable, present them in small does, with emphasis on slowing his pace and accurate production."
Ok, so this whole testing escapade began because X noticed that other kids his age (and his younger sister 2+) could do stuff like hop on one foot, write, draw, and not fall down consistently. From our perspective, X loves physical activity and participates in it regularly, so the suggestions that he just needs exposure to these things is a little silly, because we have been emphasizing the physical. We have been conscious for some time now that he is in need of extra practice with physical tasks. X is quite self-aware; at age 3, he self-reported his wandering eye as �I need a monocle.� He has been very consistent about wearing his glasses and his eye has corrected itself by about a third of the way so far. We plan to get athletic prescription goggles for the summer, but for now, his little band holds his regular glasses on fine while he is active.
The OTR/L gave us a big stack of take-home material and recommended some products to purchase. Our problem is that X doesn�t have a big enough gap in his abilities for the town to devote any resources to addressing it any further; however, it is significant enough to cause X some measure of stress. We are very glad that he does not have a technical disability. To the PPT, this has to become a slightly bigger problem for them to be permitted to care in a professional capacity, although they were quite friendly and supportive, and even recommended private OT centers in the area (off the record, of course). But seriously, how could they give X a written math test??? Quoting the Psychoeducational Evaluation: �X�s visual tracking and graphomotor coordination on timed pencil/paper tasks were significantly below his other cognitive abilities�X used a right-handed palm grasp on his pencil and had weak control when asked to fill in specific marks along lines of shapes. X was accurate in the marks he did complete, but did very few of them within the two-minute time limit.� No kidding that he did very few. To the best of our knowledge, that�s the most writing he�s ever done. Our point is: this might not seem like a disability, but relative to his other functions, it is, and it is really upsetting for him. We have already had several years of his inability to write things down for himself. So we will try to get our insurance to cover some OT stuff this year, but we are still interested in finding out about a math test that could capture his abilities in a non-written, perhaps even untimed (if physical tasks are involved) format. That way, we would feel more confident about Kindergarten meeting his math needs, and then maybe next year we could apply to the Davidson YSP or other programs.
Hi,
I know your main questions were about which test to use to document the true abilities, particularly math abilities of your son, but I just wanted to comment about his gross and fine motor skills. I'm no expert, but I have been around lots of kids in school settings at many different levels, and to me, your son's abilities -- other than the fact that they bother him -- are nothing to worry about much at this point. He sounds like a normal almost-five year old boy. The areas that you mentioned he had trouble with (tracing a line carefully, cutting with scissors, drawing shapes) are all things that can be explained by either his lack of interest (the tracing) or lack of practice (the cutting, drawing). Many a boy, and yes, that's a generalized statement, has little interest in arts and crafts and/or drawing, so they get little "natural" practice with these skills. And, since your DS is obviously busy learning other things, you just probably haven't thought to practice those skills. Same, I'd guess, with the jumping and the ball skills. If those are things he's generally not interested in on his own, I could see why you might forget to practice those skills. I certainly wouldn't think OT or PT was necessary at this point. Just try to work those activities into your day with him. To me, the report that you got seems to pathologize normal 4-5 year old behavior and physical abilities.
As far as him getting upset with his comparitive difficulties, I suspect he probably has perfectionistic tendencies in general, yes? It's something many of us here deal with. Perhaps one of your strategies could be working with him to go a little easier on himself. Perhaps emphasize that everyone has things that are strengths for them and things that need to be worked on. But, too, let him know the basics of asynchrony, which is that while his brain is working like older kids' brains, his body is working just the way a 4 year old's does. And, that's okay.
I hope you're able to find a good academic situation that meets all his needs. He sounds like a great little boy!
I also just wanted to add that in the four different preschools my kids attended over the years, learning to write their first name only was a skill learned throughout the entire first year of preschool. Learning to write their last name was done during the second half of the second year of preschool. And kindergarten always spent a great deal of time working to teach kids to write their first and last names during the first several months of school. So, your DS doesn't sound far off, eventhough it is frustrating to him. But again, I know this is a tangent since you were primarily asking about how to document his abilities without his fine motor skills skewing his results.
Were the motor skills assessments done recently (i.e., was he almost 5 when it was done)? I ask because some of that stuff does seem to me to be pretty behind for an older 4 year old if he has had significant interest/exposure/opportunity. DD has had a number of gross/fine motor skills that she is behind in because of a lack of interest, which doesn't worry me at all, but it sounds like that is not the issue with your son. If, for example, he is trying and practicing and wanting to be able to jump from a short height without falling, but cannot do it, it seems to me that there is very likely a physical issue to blame.
Wrt the handwriting, I am inclined to think that being frustrated by an inability to write is more or less just a gifted preschooler thing, and not necessarily indicative of a problem. It's just so common that the desire to write comes before the ability to write in our kids.
It seems to me that you've already got some solid indication that he's going to need more than a standard K curriculum. How much more is something you don't know, and probably something you can't know. You could try out a math placement test (e.g., Singapore), at home if you want. It won't help with school advocacy, but it might give you a better idea of where he's at right now.
Thank you so much for all of the responses. It is good to hear feedback from other parents with similar experiences. X�s dad had to sign yet another �injury report� when he picked X up from school today. This time it seems X ran into a door. As usual, he is fine, so it is sort of funny, but not really. So, um yes, we didn't want to drone on about the problems, but he really does seem to have some ballance/coordination stuff going on. Are we pathologizing? Probably, but he is our kid, so we tend to think about him a fair amount. On a purely positive note, we are meeting on Thursday with the school special ed/student coordinator person, who has been encouraging throughout this process. She also wants to figure out X�s actual math level and feels confident we can create a curriculum for him. We are going to let her optimism buoy ours for now. It really would be great if they could pull this off and keep him with the same group of kids for a few years while still enhancing his options to fit his needs. We�ll check the board again before we go to the meeting, so if anyone else has other ideas we should mention regarding a good oral math test or protocol she could follow, we would be grateful. We will pass along the suggestions about the SB-5 and Singapore. Thanks again.
So, um yes, we didn't want to drone on about the problems, but he really does seem to have some ballance/coordination stuff going on. Are we pathologizing? Probably, but he is our kid, so we tend to think about him a fair amount. On a purely positive note, we are meeting on Thursday with the school special ed/student coordinator person, who has been encouraging throughout this process. She also wants to figure out X�s actual math level and feels confident we can create a curriculum for him. We are going to let her optimism buoy ours for now.
I just wanted to clarify that I didn't think that
you were pathologizing, more that the PT/OT who did the evaluation seemed as if she were overstatinbg the significance of his delays in large and small motor skills. To me, the report you quoted seemed a bit alarmist and your DS's coordination didn't seem so different than normal. Which is not to say that you shouldn't be interested and possibly concerned. I totally get that you care about your son and are in tune with him and are just wanting to make sure that you don't ignore a skill set that needs to be worked on. I know I have certainly noticed things that I thought weren't quite right in my kids and I did my darndest to learn about the situation and make whatever changes were necessary. You're just being good parents. Sorry that I didn't say that clearly before.
I'm glad to hear that the school special ed/student coordinator is working with you and is so encouraging! There's nothing better than talking with someone who really wants to try to understand your child and give them the right situation! I hope you are able to get a more accurate assessment of his math skills and get him what he needs.
Oh, dear. No, it is us, not you. We are trying hard not to worry too much. He is our eldest, so everything is new with him. We are in one of those �sports� towns, so yes, the school has noticed he is wobbly and accident prone. Motor delays would be a simple answer in some ways (the school is set up to deal with that). We are left with concerns about his vision and equilibrium. We are not jocks, but we are reasonably coordinated and outdoorsy, so he hasn�t lacked for opportunities to develop balance and such. Watching him try to bring a fork full of food to his mouth is like watching someone fail a sobriety test.