I've been wanting to have my 8 year old son tested to see if he qualifies for DYS. He has moved so quickly through math and is about to pass me by, so I wanted Davidson assistance to figure out how to keep him challenged.

It took me 6 months to save my pennies for the WISC IV, and I got my results today. I was absolutely floored-- his score was totally average. I had prepared myself for the probability that his scores would be high but not Davidson high. It never even occurred to me that the scores would be average. I just don't even know what to do now. I listed his scores at the end of this message.

It didn't occur to me they would be average for a few reasons:

-- He hit his developmental milestones very early (head control almost from birth, sitting by 4 months, pincer grasp and self-feeding at 6 months, walking and pushing chairs across the kitchen to get food out of the cabinets at 9 months, etc)

-- He could read shortly before his 4th birthday

-- All his friends are 2-3 years older than him.

-- In 2nd grade he made straight 100s in 5th grade math. In 3rd grade (current grade), he buzzed through pre-algebra in 2 months, then mastered the first half of Algebra 1 in a week. Right now he's working geometry problems pretty successfully out of an SAT prep book.

-- I was in the g/t program as a kid and his two older siblings have been identified as g/t (his older sister is due to graduate at 15). I've always through he was the smartest of my kids.

-- I'm an administrator at a small private school. About 1/3 of the kids have been identified as g/t (several with 145+ IQ scores). He seems to be at their level, and when we group kids he's always put with the g/t kids.

So, he seems g/t to me, but his scores are dead average. Now I'm just wondering if I'm seriously deluding myself. I have no reason to mistrust his scores. He isn't shy or anxious (he's actually very outgoing). He wasn't sick or hungry. The tester didn't see any signs of learning disabilities or focus issues (and I've never suspected them). It just doesn't make sense. It's just so weird for me to think that his intelligence is just dead-average.

The only thing I can think of is that perhaps he over thought some answers. For example, on the "Cancellation" test, he only scored a 7 and the tester said when the test was over he told her was was trying to figure out the best way to do the test. When I asked him about it this morning, he said he was trying to decide if it would be best to work horizontally or vertically or should he search for one type of animal first. He said then he wondered if there could be a pattern to help him find all the animals faster, but he couldn't find a pattern.

I don't know what the other tests are like, but I wonder if he wasted time creating strategies for the other tests. He's definitely a strategic thinker-- he doesn't do *anything* without formulating a plan for how the job can be done most efficiently.

Even then, it doesn't seem like over-thinking could lower the scores *that* much. Take his vocabulary score, for example. He scored a 7. But, a couple days before the test we thumbing through the "Building Thinking Skills". I have no idea what's on the WISC, but I wanted to familiarize him with analogies just in case they were on there. In the verbal analogy section of the book, he got 100% correct answers and understood the meaning of words such as commemorate, restrain, perceive, vigor, detest, scorn, assessment, authorization, etc. I could be wrong, but those words seem above 3rd grade level and if he had no problem with words like those then it doesn't make sense to me that he scored below average.

Oh well. It is what it is. Fretting about it doesn't change it.

Here were his scores:

VCI:
Similarities 14
Vocabulary 7
Comprehension 11
Information 8
Word Reasoning 9

PRI:
Block Design: 11
Picture Concepts: 8
Matrix Reasoning: 8
Picture Completion: 7

WMI:
Digit Span: 7
Letters-Numbers: 10
Arithmetic: 10

PSI:
Coding: 12
Symbol Search: 7
Cancellation: 7

FSIQ: 98
GAI: 104

Hi,
Sorry that the results seem so out of whack. We are all so accustomed to never seeing anything less than the 90%ile everywhere that we forget that some talented people really don't test well.

It certainly sounds like this child is very bright. I would think portfolio and achievement information along with apparent LOG. Chin up! Trust your instincts and know that we're behind you.

I am sure that you will hear from more qualified people than myself, but I wanted to offer support. Your son seems very bright. If your "mommy instincts" tell you that this test isn't him, then go with it. Have him retested in a year or two. I have heard some wild IQ test stories lately. In the meantime, utilize any benchmark tests that the school has to advocate for him, if he needs it.

slhogan, from your other post about the test being shipped to the tester, I am guessing that the tester is not experienced with the WISC-IV, is that correct?

I tend to be one who subscribes to the philosophy "If it walks and quacks like a duck, assume it is a duck". To me, the achievement, intensity, and logic you are seeing every day is much more valid than how he did on the WISC one day at age 8. Especially since you live/work with other GT kids, you know what it looks like. I'm sorry if you were going to use those scores for advocacy. Maybe you should do some achievement testing if you need scores? I think it is extremely unlikely you are deluding yourself.

Just out of curiosity, did your tester have GT experience?

Those scores seem odd and I think for example if you remove the higher similarities score, and replace it with the avg of the other scores, what IQ does that give you? Maybe something closer to 90? Based on your description of your son, I am not buying this result as an accurate measure of his potential. The higher similarities score hints at higher potential, but I don't buy any of the rest. I know the WISC was expensive, but I have a suggestion: why not get your son tested on (JHU CTY) SCAT test and see how he does? I think the whole thing is less than $100 (entering the talent search at JHU CTY and then signing up for the SCAT at prometric), and based on your description of your son I think it will be interesting to have that SCAT score to compare with the WISC (even if only to show concretely the disparity between purported "potential" according to this WISC and performance on another test which in some way also measures academic ability). I posted on a separate thread about several family members of mine with unreliable (changing) test results. It happens. I'm sure the WISC test result reflects something, but probably not your child's true potential in this case. I think some kids get penalized for not answering the way the tester wants them to. One kid I know got distracted looking at how answers were being logged on an answer sheet. If the test questions don't happen to be the most interesting thing (at that moment) not all kids will put 100 percent of their effort and attention to the task of delivering exactly what the tester wants. Who knows, maybe some of these kids are the smarter ones?

This happened to my (then) 8 y.o. on the WISC-IV. His FSIQ was 121. That just didn't match with his previous testing, my observations, or the test scores of anyone else in his family.

I paid for another testing session with a different tester using the SB-V. His score on that was 139.

I'm getting GAI=99. I don't see how they could get 104 even with some crazy substitutions. There are a lot of red flags here. Are you sure this person is qualified to administer the WISC-IV?

I was really too much in shock to ask the tester many questions. I stammered a few comments that I didn't understand how he can *seem* gifted but that low a score. She said he was simply a high achiever and must work really hard. She pointed out that his verbal scores are above average and that verbal kids can sometimes appear brighter than they really are.

If his score was 120ish, then I could accept the idea that he's just a bright kid with a weird knack for math. But I just can't bring myself to accept a 98/104. I just can't get over all those 7s and 8s!

I listed his raw scores at the bottom of this message (listed in the order they are listed on the report).

I have no idea about the tester. I simply made dozens of phone calls and went with the cheapest price I could find: $300. She told me the test took 1.5 hours; it took about 1.75 hours because he took a couple of breaks. She has a doctorate degree and assured me she was very familiar with all the IQ tests. I requested the WISC-IV and she said no problem. As you saw in my previous post there *was* a problem with her getting the test, but it did resolve itself.

My plan for DYS consideration was to submit the WISC-IV scores with a portfolio for his achievement. Now I think perhaps I should do the opposite. Thanks for the suggestions on tests. I think we'll go that route. Perhaps his achievement tests will be high enough that the WISC-IV scores will simply appear invalid.

These tests are expensive, and we're not a high-income family! My husband is a carpenter, and I don't yet make any salary off the small "university-style" private school that I started a couple years ago. If my kids went to public school our income is such that they'd qualify for reduced-price lunch.

Okay... here are the scores printed in the report. There are no other numbers listed:

Block Design: raw=28, scaled=11
Similarities: 26, 14
Digit Span: 11, 7
Picture Concepts: 13, 8
Coding: 21, 12
Vocabulary: 19, 7
Letter-Number Seq: 14, 10
Matrix Reasoning: 14, 8
Comprehension: 19, 11
Symbol Search: 13, 7
(Picture Completion): 16, 7
(Cancellation): 44, 7
(Information): 12, 8
(Arithmetic): 19, 10
(Word Reasoning): 11, 9

Sum of scaled scores: 35+27+17+19=98
FSIQ: 98
GAI: 104

hi slhogan
not sure if anyone suggested this already, but maybe you should check that your sons age was calculated correctly and that the scoring was based on the correct age. It just seems like that one 14 should have been his "19" and the other scores should have been in the 10-14 range, yielding a very strong score. Also If this is the psychologist who had trouble getting the WISC-IV then maybe it is a version she isn't familiar with and may have goofed on how she scored it.. though not sure how you'd check on that at this point without totally insulting her.

Good point!

slhogan, how old was your DS exactly? My DS was tested with the WISC-IV at 8.7(VCI only), and the report listed his Similarities Raw 27 and Scaled Score 16. Your son's Similarities Raw is 26, Scaled Score 14. I could be wrong, but to me, these scores make sense if your DS was older than 8.7. I don't know...Just a thought.

slhogan, trust your instincts. With your experience, you are in a good position to gauge. The SCAT is a good and cost effective idea.

Most of all, hugs to you.

Sorry this didn't turned out the way you expected. I could imagine I would feel very confused by those results. Does your child seem to "work hard" to you or did things just come to him? I understand wanting to get a bargain, but maybe this tester was cheap for a reason (not blaming you for choosing her, just starting to wonder).

It sounds like you've gotten a lot of support here already for trusting your instincts. As much as I am put out by GT programming in many of my local schools lumping a lot of above avg achievers in with truly gifted kids (calling kids with IQs of 135 and 105 all the same thing if the 105 kid is a higher than avg achiever), I've become less & less certain how much we can rely on IQ tests to be totally accurate.

One of my dd has wild swings in IQ scores. In her instance, I'm not so certain in my mind where she falls, so I don't have as many instincts to trust in regard to her. Your son clearly presents differently than this one set of IQ scores shows and you have enough experience with truly gifted kids that I wouldn't worry that you are misinterpretting what you are seeing in his achievement.

His report accurately states that he is 8 years 10 months. I don't have the numbers with me at the moment-- I will double check them later today to see if I listed them correctly in my previous post.

Sorry to hear about your dum test
This was my thinking when I read your post

If your goal is DYS, have you considered achievement testing? Many of the talent searches offer affordable testing on the Explore, which DYS accepts.
DYS lists some talent search opportunities here http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10260.aspx may be worth looking into.
{{Hugs}}

I appreciate everyone's advice!

I double-checked his scores and everything I wrote in the previous post is correct.

I'm just working through the results right now and coming to the obvious conclusion that it's just a test and I still have the same kid. He will be taking the ITBS and CogAT testing in late spring at his private school. If those results come back very high then I will look into SCAT or Explore.

I remembered yesterday that my daughter-- now 13-- took a g/t qualifying test (I don't know what it was) when she was 8 years old. I thought it would be a no-brainer that she would get in. I was stunned when her test came back 55th percentile (97th was required to get into the program). She wasn't tested again until last year when she hit the ceiling on her CogAT. At 13 she is a sophomore, makes straight A+ on her report cards with barely any studying, and is on track to graduate from college with quite a bit of college credit under her belt at the age of 15. She is obviously above the 55th percentile in her abilities.

So... maybe my son will be the same way. Perhaps like his sister he just doesn't test well at this age. Or, maybe he has a totally average IQ, and I should be thankful for that. Who knows. I guess time will tell.

Gosh, you might want to check out scat even if he doesn't do great on the Cogat, etc...it is fairly affordable compared with other tests. I think he'd just have to have 95% or higher on a state test like the ones most schools do every year.

Yeah, all these tests are just tests, at most a few hours out of one day. And only definitely show that some kids are good at taking those sorts of tests, and some less so. It really doesn't sound like either of your kids have 'totally average' brains.