I have a strange question for Dottie and others. I know that processing speed is oftentimes removed for GAI calculation, because it is not considered a good estimate of giftedness. What happens if a child does extremely well on processing speed, and it is one of the best subtests? Would this be looked down upon when looking at the whole FSIQ and interpreting it for giftedness. I don't have more details right now, tester has them, but this is something that I know so far and am curious about. Thank you so much -

I saw a psychologist speak at a GATE conference recently who said that PSI in gifted kids is simply a measure of how much they are affected by perfectionism. Now obviously, that is a bit of a generalization but it does demonstrate how a child with a high PSI may be able to go through those sections quickly and with accuracy, without being overly worried about correct answers or how the tester is viewing them, if they are the fastest or slowest ever or what someone will think if the answer is wrong... or the multitude of other things my DS says were racing through his head at the time!

Thanks all. The tester is calculating, we are talking tomorrow and I'll have more to say (or maybe not if the rest is boring). This was very helpful!

I think your psych might have been the one I saw speak. He used that same phrase several times in his lecture! That was very much his point- if it's a low score it's a reflection of perfectionism if everything else is high. If it's a high score, well be happy your kid doesn't agonize over every answer. That was all he said you can use PSI for determining.

As the parent of a child with a legitimately lower PSI than VCI or PRI, I think it's definitely too big a generalization to say what the psych said:

I think perfectionism can lower PSI and should always be *considered* in the case of a high GAI/low PSI. But a blanket statement like this is dangerous. My child (and others discussed here regularly) are living proof that some kids really do process things more slowly and yet are still wicked smart.

I always worry (and speak up) when I see generalizations like this because I have seen my son suffer at the hands of people who equate fast and smart. These are not the same, even once perfectionism is taken into account. There really are people who need time to process, but who are still amazingly bright.

I agree completely that PSI can matter in school situations. Because of the common "fast = smart" bias, kids who are fast often do better in school situations. I would be more likely to recommend against grade skips for a kid with an average or below-average PSI because the child is more likely to have a hard time keeping up with the older kids, no matter how deeply and creatively the child can solve problems. Some other solution might be a better fit. In that regard, a high PSI can be a big help. Some classrooms can be very speed-oriented.

Kriston,
This is pertinent information because this child is a total speed demon. Anything that takes too long just annoys her. She is begging for another grade skip because she hates sitting and waiting for everyone else, she gets things super fast and wants to just move on. So, this is interesting, thank you. I appreciate the type that takes her time and massages ideas, that just isn't her.

My guess: she's probably going to look smarter than she is (and I don't mean that in any bad way--just talking perception vs. potential here) to a lot of teachers.

That can be a good thing or a bad thing. Teachers often get from kids what they expect to get, so if teachers see your DD as more capable, it might be a big boon for her education. Hard work matters a lot! And if your DD is willing to work to live up to expectations, she could go amazingly far.

I'd just keep my eyes peeled for her getting in over her head and getting overwhelmed. She would seem to be a potential candidate for imposter syndrome if speed becomes mistaken for intelligence, especially in math, especially in the early grades. Timed math fact tests aren't "real" math, and it can be shocking to kids who have been "the smart ones" in math to hit problem solving and falter. No blanket statment, of course. Some schools do a better job at early problem-solving work than others. (Ours isn't good!) But it would be something I'd watch for.

Is it possible that her VCI and PRI tested lower than reality for her? How/what does she do if she runs up against something that is legitimately hard for her?

I completely agree, CFK.

Oh, I read this and thought the GAI scores weren't as high:



I figured that meant the others were lower, but you're right that this isn't clear. Hmmm...

I believe, from the quick conversation that I had with the tester, that her FSIQ is at the 145 mark, with VCI and maybe PRI in the very high 130's? I think I heard right, we are talking tomorrow. I was expecting super high VCI, but it wasn't her day.
Oh, and she cries or stamps her feet if something is actually difficult. Hence the need to make sure that she is challenged, so it isn't so unusual.

Yes, this is the younger. I am hoping that this is it. I'll know more tomorrow. I do remember the number 138 for VCI, everything else was just a blur, esp. after I heard "preliminary I think the FSIQ is 145". If it is 144 after she calculates - ugh.
It will be a long night for me!

DYS accepts GAI now, so maybe not that long.

Kriston- I think actually that your point was exactly the psych's point that I saw. That fast does not equal smart in every case (or even in many cases) but that slow does not immediately equal learning disability either. That slow can actually even mean MORE smart but wrought with perfectionism. He explained primarily that you should not hold a child back from content because of PSI if everything else was high. You should instead realize that a "slow" child needs time to ruminate and stop pressuring fast but still give the content at the appropriate academic level.

...or it could be something other than perfectionism.

My problem is with limiting the explanation for "slow but deep" to perfectionism (or learning disability) alone. Is that not what he said? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding his point since I'm just going from what you've said. Maybe something got lost in translation.

I'm glad he's noting that kids can be smart but not fast. That's good. But I think there are plenty of reasons other than perfectionism that are possible to explain that situation. Very often perfectionism is the only possibility suggested, and it doesn't fit every child.

We don't assume that VCI and PRI should both be high if one is high. Why assume that PSI should be high if VCI and/or PRI are high? From what you've said, it seems to me that he's still doing that, only he's assuming the PSI is a false low because of perfectionism.

My DS really is that slow! Smart, but really that slow! It's not perfectionism.

Well it was a two hour lecture condensed into two sentences :-) But his underlying point is that slow is slow and we shouldn't assume that slow doesn't equal as smart as fast and that you shouldn't freak if you get a kid with a low PSI and high everything else.

Slow just is... and doesn't mean something is "wrong".

Ah. Sorry for misunderstanding.

No worries Kriston- I was trying to be reassuring and I wanted to make sure I got that clear!

Hi all,
New question.
We got it. The FSIQ was 145.
The WJ achievement total was 145 or 146, she's calculating. Child is functioning four grade levels ahead in language arts, no wonder why she gives me a hard time about going to school. I am relieved, but exhausted and worried about schooling.

Dottie, Kriston, and all:
Are two "barely there" scores OK for a DYS application? I have two people writing recommendation letters, plus I have last year's WPPSI of FSIQ 146. Do you think we're OK?

No. A subtest or two of the WJ were over, but not the entire broad reading or entire broad math.
Thanks, Dottie. I emailed my recommendation people and told them to go ahead and write the letters.
Can I hold my breathe for the next few weeks?

Great! Have you tackled the application form yet? Good to know you already have 2 recommendation forms. You have a couple of weeks to get it altogether. I would not include the WPPSI results since they are not at that 150 level. I think the WISC should speak by itself.

Yup. Barely there is still there. Especially since she's functioning 4 grades ahead, she's clearly a good candidate.



I understand how nervous you are about school for her. It's scary. But trust that you will find the way. Have you read the "Least-Worst" article on Hoagies yet? I highly recommend it. I go back and re-read it every time we have to make a choice about school. http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/least-worst.htm

I'd also suggest that you recognize now that even an educational solution that seems PERFECT may outlive its usefulness pretty quickly. 6 months to a year is a pretty normal life cycle, and that's disconcerting at first. ("Didn't we just go through all this last year? Gah!") More flexibility in the situation can extend that time. You might be one of the lucky ones who finds an educational solution that just works long-term, but most HG+ kids bring at least some head-scratching every year, even if the choice is ultimately not to make major changes. You get used to it. Honest.

Also, be assured that as long as you're doing the best you can do for your child, it will be okay. You will make it work eventually, and kids are resiliant. Try not to feel as if the weight of the world is on your shoulders. It's hard not to, but try not. You will find a solution that works.

Good article, Kriston, thank you.
What makes this even harder is that the older DD is already DYS but nothing is a perfect fit for her at school, either, so I feel like my head is going to split in two trying to think about two very different kids, two different schools, yikes.

You are right, it really will work out as long as they are loved and we are trying to make schooling appropriate.

I think the perfectionism apple doesn't fall far from the parental perfectionism tree. We have to learn to let that go. I'm still working on it.

I sympathize with feeling like you can't do this for your 2nd child, too. We finally got to the point that things are really pretty easy with DS8. Homeschooling is clicking along well. He's got a part-time school-for-homeschoolers that suits him beautifully. He's happy, he's well-placed, he's got good friends he sees often. All is well...and along comes DS5, who was supposed to be my easy one! Making the decision about what to do with him next year is even harder than it was when we had our hardest year with DS8. I didn't think that was possible!

The things I have going for me now are experience and confidence. I think you should take advantage of those, too. You know a lot. You've been in the trenches. Trust your gut.

Wow, your DS8's situation sounds really wonderful. I don't think we have anything like that here. Good luck with DS5, I know how you feel!

I think we're really lucky. But even with basically free reign because of homeschooling, it took us 2 or 3 years to figure it all out.

And even then, when we started discussing whether to keep DS5 in public school or to homeschool him and send him to the s-f-hsers as many as 4 days per week, DS8 suddenly decided that maybe he wanted to take more classes there, too. Of course, to get his academic needs met, he'd have to be in the algebra class with 13+yos, among other complications.

*sigh*

We're working it out. It's a never-ending process.

Lovely! Nice to have some anwsers. I think this puts the 'maybe she just looks gifted due to super high processing speed' worry to rest.

I don't have any IQ score myself, but seem to resonate with the 'very high processing speed plus bottle neck working memory.'

I'm wondering what your DD's working memory score is like., and if you see it in 'real life.'

For example, my son and DH can 'see' 3 digit numbers in their head, as if on a blackboard, while my mind's eye gives my giant 'forest' insights in a flash, but doesn't say much about the trees. I believe that this relates to my lack of spelling ability - one of the basic techniques of teaching spelling is to close one's eyes and visualize the word. I do fine with 4 letter words, but basically can't 'see' more than that.

Another way it affects me is that sometimes my best advice posts are totally unconscious. I think about something to write about and tell my story and then I see the connection and 'so impress myself.'

so I'm curious if what your DD's working memory scores are like.

Smiles,
Grinity

I will tell you when I get them. I looked at the scores today but don't have the report. I remember a few of them, but not that one, I am curious, too! She is a terrific speller, so it will be interesting given your example.

So where does this leave you now, aside from the DYS application? Are there other specific issues? What's your next step for school? With what can we help you?

I'm not sure, thank you so much.

She is grade skipped one grade and I have been told that next year all differentiation will happen in the room, with no "pull out" program. I am going to demand that she be given appropriate work. I am skeptical that she won't just be sitting in the corner reading a book for her differentiation, without real instruction at her level, but maybe I should try it.

The psychologist today said that maybe she could do online or homeschool for academics but then go to school for PE, art, etc. That sounds wild and wacky - because inevitably she will miss something fun here and there and be annoyed. She did make friends this year, so going to school is something I'd hope we could continue. But, each day, ever since probably November or Dec, she insists that she is learning nothing and is bored and doesn't want to go, except to see her friends. I can't decide when homeschooling might come into play, I hate to take her away from these nice kids. She is getting pulled out now for a few minutes of enrichment a few times a week, but it isn't enough, obviously.
Ugh.

My recommendation: don't rule anything out without looking into it. More options are better for you than fewer at this point. Learn about everything you could conceivably do. Keep a running list of pros and cons. But don't reject anything completely. DS8 has been out of the public school for the better part of 3 school years, but we still consider public school every time we rethink what to do with DS8 for school. Why limit yourself?

Advocating with the school to make things work for your DD is certainly the place to start. No question!

But do know that you don't have to limit yourself to that one choice right now. More options--even if you choose not to take them--will help you feel better about the school if you stay there and will help you to feel less powerless while advocating. You're in the research phase.

A number of kids here do an online, independent study sort of thing at the back of the class for some subjects. I suspect others can address this better than I, but it is a pretty standard form of differentiation that can work well.

I know a couple people for whom partial homeschooling (pulling the child out for an hour or two during the day) is a good solution. See what's involved. The drawback is that your DD might be "neither fish nor fowl," not really fitting 100% in either the homeschooling community or the school. That depends upon how much time she's gone and how big a deal it is to her friends. But it can solve both the academic fit and the social setting, especially if the school and the teacher like the idea. They can make sure she's present for parties, special activities and fun stuff...or if they want to sink things, they can make sure that she misses them all! Communication with the school and the teacher are vital.

As for full-time homeschooling and friends: realize that school friendships can be continued through playdates. Also, though it wouldn't involve those same kids she's with now, your kids would almost certainly make friends in the homeschooling community, too. No pressure, but before you worry about the social, I'd suggest researching what is available socially for homeschoolers in your area. Remember that every homeschooler is in the same boat socially, and as a result, they get together often. That part's not as hard as you might think.

Finally, know that there may also be other options available that you don't even know about now. We didn't know the school-for-homeschoolers even existed 3 years ago.

I ask practically everyone I meet, especially people with gifted kids or some special needs, about their school situation and how they feel about it to try to find out those schools and resources that I don't yet know about. 99% of it I'll probably never use, but knowing that I have some aces up my sleeve if circumstances shift is really reassuring.

I'm babbling, but hopefully there's something useful there.

Very useful, thanks!

What about a 2nd full skip? or some subject accelerations? It's asking an awful lot of a teacher to teach your child a seperate curricula while teaching a regular classroom full of other kids. Some teachers do it very very well, and love doing it - perhaps you can ask the principal to work with you in hand picking next year's teacher?

Best Wishes,
Grinity

Thanks, Grinity. A second grade skip won't work in that she needs to go up 2-3 grades in language arts, not just one more. Plus, she has made friends in her current grade, I'm not sure how to handle that. It is preventing me from asking for a second skip.

I do work during the day, so I can't quite figure out if I should even ask for her to attend electives and for me to homeschool subjects.

Does it seem reasonable to ask that she do just language arts at home with me, and go to the library for that part of the day? She could suffer through the other subjects with just the one grade skip maybe, and then do language arts via online classes and me? We have a weird school schedule and subject acceleration to a different language arts class will be too difficult.

I haven't stopped feeling sick since meeting with the school psychologist, this is really difficult.

I wouldn't necessarily rule out the grade skip until you talk to the school. My DS is skipped to 2nd but in a GT cluster with a group of kids reading at 6th grade level. So he does 2nd grade specials, 3rd grade math and 6th grade LA, all in the same class. This worked well by the school simply clustering the kids together who needed higher levels of academics.

Some schools let kids to EPGY in the classroom on a computer with headphones so they can work on different material than the rest of the class. Could something like that work? It wouldn't require the teacher to design & teach a separate curriculum, just to give her a computer to work and be available occassionally to trouble shoot or answer questions.

Good thought on the "operating grade level" and thanks for the thoughts above that, too, you all.

Yes, I was basing it on the WJ achievement and also on some experience in dealing with her. THe WJ achievement, for example, had her doing independent 4th grade work in language arts. But, at home, she took the 5th grade benchmark test and passed. So, that told me that in 4 or 5 months (start of next school year), fifth grade reading work might be her level. So, either they need to assess her or I need to at home (we do EPGY math at home, so I have that, too, to help evaluate).

Question: how do I assess science and social studies? Is that really based on IQ and reading?

In my experience, a lot is based on what they've been exposed to. I can tell you that for homeschoolers taking annual standardized achievement tests like the CAT (California) or the ITBS (Iowa), social studies is often lower than anything else because the kids studied other things--the Norse or the Greeks, say--rather than what's on the test.

For example, there was a question my son had once about a crossing guard. Well, he's a homeschooler in a suburban area where school kids ride buses. He's never seen a crossing guard, nor had the subject of crossing guards come up in conversation. He missed that one and several others along the same lines.

I'd imagine the same sort of thing would happen with an unprepped kid being tested on the school's curriculum unless she just happened to have stumbled across those particular bits of info in her life.

Science seems easier for them to pick up through experience and independent reading. (I'll admit that DS8 is a very science-minded kid, though, so that may be my own bias. But then again, I don't know very many social-studies-minded kids. History, yes; crossing guards, no!)

I'd recommend finding out what curriculum they use for social studies and science. If it's possible to get some assessment tool for that specific curriculum, that would be ideal. I doubt it's possible, but it would be where I'd start. I don't think assessment tools will be very helpful if they're designed for other curricula. The info just tends to be too specific.

Even if the second skip doesn't completely solve her problems, it will help, and with a teacher who is creative and interested, it will be a lot more possible for useful enrichment to take place.

She has friends in her current grade. I'll bet she would also have friends in her new grade. She might even have more friends. If you leave her where she is - and she really hates to wait for the other kids - she might start hating her current friends if they make her wait one to many times. Better to enjoy them afterschool on playdates than have to 'bear them' in the classroom.

You will still probably have to do 'more' but 'less more' is better.

love and more love,
Grinity

Kriston and Grinity,
You've given me a lot to think about - thank you.
Less more is definitely better than more more!