When putting together a portfolio would workbook pages showing the child chose to write velociraptor as his short o word be a good this to add? He had to write the short o word that went with the pictures and he got to draw whatever short o word he wanted for the last one. His short i one was ichthyosaurus.

it depends, if its always dinosaurs, i'd hesitate..as a lot of kids seem to be able to remember big dinosaur names as they are so so interesting/reinforcing.. but if its generally big, more mature words, including some dinosaur names, i'd go with it. This is just my hunch on this one.
irene

I disagree. If it's what your child does, send it. Not worth second guessing. And being extremely interested in one thing is something they ask about on the application. I'm sure that's only one example you can include re: his interest in and knowledge about dinosaurs. I can't even spell the second one...

I'm with Questions. If dinosaurs are your kid's thing, include it.

Just remember that you're not trying to demonstrate that your child is "merely" gifted, but that your child is HG+, or beyond the ability of the current testing instruments to get an accurate read. To me, that's the key question to ask yourself when it comes to what to include: does this seem to me to be MG or is it HG+/PG?

I freely admit that's a tough question to answer much of the time, but I think it helps to keep you from including things that are not helpful.

See that's the part I'm just not certain on. I know Wolf and he is my norm. I honestly have no idea if he is MG or higher. I'm guessing higher? But I really don't know and it looks like testing will be an issue for us.

I know what he did and when, all the basics were early, 5 words sentences around 18 months, addition and subtraction up to 10 by 3 or 3.6, learning to read in a month and a half just after he turned 4, etc... I know he is working 1.5 to 2+ grades above his age level (and looking like he will finish most of his 1st grade work by January...). He did have to look up the spellings for the dinosaur names.

Really does anyone have any suggestions on how to tell MG from higher? I'm still dealing with some gifted denial issues I think and I know he is different, but how different is different???

If anyone has submitted supporting portfolio information for an application for an older child I would love to hear any suggestions for the types of information you included!

Thanks
Grif

My understanding with the DYS application was to send in portfolio pieces 2 to 3 years ahead. I thought this was PG work??????

I would agree, CFK, that 3 years ahead at age 4 or 5 is a bigger deal than 3 years ahead in upper elementary. I think that's a good point. Especially without both types of test scores to back you up, I think you want to show as much advancement as possible.

I don't think DYS *requires* all work at 4 or 5 years ahead of grade level, but personally, I don't think I'd submit anything that was "only" 2 years ahead. (Wih the understanding that 2 years ahead is a gifted kid!)

Again, remember that you want to demonstrate to DITD that your child is PG, not MG. I'd suggest looking at the most advanced work your child does and submitting that.

Sorry to hijack this a bit, but I have a question re this. My oldest dd, whose IQ tested at 132 on the WISC-IV at age 7 (so MG, I believe, albeit with wild variations btwn 25th to 99.9th w/in subtests), has numerous achievement scores that are more than 4 yrs above grade level, but she is not PG.

The first set of achievement scores that we got (WJ-III) in 2nd grade that would really give us grade level (not how an avg 6th grader would have tested on a 2nd grade test for instance as many of the school grade level achievement tests tell you), put her writing at grade 18+ and many of the other language arts pieces (reading, spelling type of things) more than 4 grades above 2nd grade. Math calculation was right at grade level and the other math piece maybe 2 grades above her current grade, so overall her composite was 5th grade (3 grades above level).

In 4th grade, she had two scores (English and Science) on the EXPLORE that easily qualified for DYS, but she only did so-so on the math part and left crying & went to the bathroom during reading and didn't finish it, so that was also an avg score. Overall, she still made the awards ceremony, though.

In 6th (after skipping a grade), she was still more than 4 grades above level on a reading achievement test (something like 12 grades above level, which was around the ceiling of the test).

Given that this is not a PG/DYS child, how much can we rely on achievement above grade level to predict whether a child is PG? Or is it just that the child needs to be 5+ grades above level in all subjects to be PG?

Dottie - can I ask a follow-up question? When you say that half of the GT 5th/6th grade kids test upper end high school, what kind of testing does that mean? The grade equivalencies on the WJ-III, for example, or something like mean scores on SAT or other upper high school tests, or something else?

Thanks for any additional info you could provide! Still trying to figure it all out ...

Thanks!! I appreciate your help and advice! (Was just reading through a note you sent when I had similar questions about my DS, and that was very helpful too! :))

I really don't think so. She doesn't have any qualifying scores and she's taken a lot of tests. The WISC wasn't qualifying on GAI, FSIQ, or either of the two (PRI or VCI). While she qualified on two of the scores on the EXPLORE, she would have needed three scores including the composite, which she didn't have. Yes, she took the SAT right after her 10th bd when she was in 6th grade, but she didn't do fabulously on it (not DYS qualifying scores for a 6th grader). She is going to take it again this year, so we'll see how she does then, though.

She is still a top of the class kid in 7th grade after a one year grade skip and she was already young for grade. She tested advanced on all of the state NCLB tests in 6th (reading, writing, math) the first year following her skip, and she is in the accelerated math and reading classes and is getting straight As in all of her classes (as she did last year). For this reason, I do think that the IQ scores from age 7 were probably a bit of an underestimation and she is more likely HG than MG, but I have no indication that she is a DYS eligible kid.

She does write some really beautiful poetry, though .

I agree with Dottie, Cricket2. DYS doesn't require a FSIQ of 145. Those 99.9+%s--especially since you're talking achievement that's up there, too--are usually pretty telling...

Yes, but it does require either a FSIQ or GAI or PRI or VCI. Dd has none of the above and, while she does have some achievement scores in that range, she doesn't have a total math or total reading on a test they accept (like WJ) or enough scores on the EXPLORE or SAT, etc. that are in the 99.9th. Her PRI had one score in the 99.9th, one in the 25th, and the third somewhere else in the 90s, so overall that 25th pulled it down to something like the 95th, for example.

I'll try to bow out with my side track now so that the OP can get more relevant posts !

Okay, I know I am sidetracking further here, but wouldn't these be the sort of scores one would expect of a 2E PG/learning disabled kid? Does anyone know the YSP's policy on 2E kids? I'd think if there were consistently some scores in the PG range but the indexes were brought down by some very low scores, indicating a LD, that they might make an exception to their stated criteria. I guess I should say that I hope they would, rather than that I think they might. I really have no idea what they'd do. After all, a 2E PG kid does need even more advocacy than an all-around PG kid.

Although dd has a dx of SPD (sensory processing disorder -- she's very overly responsive to noise) and some accommodations for noise written into her ALP at school, I really don't think that she is 2E. My younger dd may be, but dd#1 doesn't otherwise seem 2E.

Her erratic scores were more likely related to two things:

The part of the PRI that she bombed was the block design which is timed and she is not a fast processor (42nd percentile on PSI as compared to all other subtests of the WISC in the 90s). She also gets slower and stressed when pressed to work fast.

She was tested about 6 months after coming off of a really horrible 1st grade year with a teacher who yelled at her all of the time and told her that she was lazy. She was still dealing with major anxiety and self-doubt issues.

As far as I know, DYS still requires their minimum scores for 2e kids. I know there are lots of 2e kids in DYS, but my understanding is that all scored high enough to get in, despite their issues.

Let say you have a child who has all the characteristics with PG like obsessive learning but in 1st and 2nd grade didn't learn anything accept at home. At the end of 2nd, They take an achievement test. Wouldn't they have a disadvantage because they were not exposed to opportunities and thus have a less achievement compared to another child who was actually taught something in a school. Could one child be more capable but not do as well from lack of exposure. Does an achievement test show their capacity to learn? Or just what they have learned? I would think if a child has very good comprehension that show potential for learning. Is this where the IQ tests gives more info.

My thinking has been to stimulate him without pushing him ahead because I wanted him to not be bored in school. Despite all this he is bored at school. So He can do all kinds of yo yo tricks and origami. But of course if he got excited about castles I would get him books from the library.

Would all of this come into consideration when applying to DYS. For example my son was doing multiplication and division in K. I'm thinking this is PG? But has not really been exposed to challenging math since then due to switching schools. Instead, I encouraged depth like logical Math - Mindware books. (I'm not Mathie so I'm guessing this is out of the box stuff) So does he look like less math potential due to lack or exposure despite he could of done more in 1st & 2nd if someone gave him the opportunity. Could someone with less exposure have more potential and DYS see that?

I agree. I think it is definitely possible that an underchallenged PG child could show underachievement on a test. But I think most HG+ kids will be living in their heads enough that they'll advance beyond their age peers even in less than ideal situations. Short of extreme conditions, they'll still be ahead. Not as far ahead as they would be in a better educational situation, but still ahead.

DS8 took the achievement test when he was 5.5yo, and he was reading many years ahead of age level (I forget how many, but a lot). I was in GT denial, so I did not have a book available to him that was above a 2nd grade reading level. He was in K, so that should have been enough, right? He wasn't getting anything above 2nd grade in school either. But he picked it up anyway somehow.

They find ways.

thank you, I was wondering about this because reading here shows me parents are doing more traditional academics than I have done.

I struggle with this. I think that sure, achievement could not be as high as it would. Certainly you can increase achievement results with direct instruction.

My DD6 was in a gifted K classroom last year. They do a lot of enrichment, but academically, they take a very slow and easy start. She had achievement test done 3 days after starting 1st grade. Her results were very good. It got me by surprise in some areas, like math. Yes, we talk about math when it comes up. For instance, a few weeks ago, she was building triangles with cheerios or some other thing she was eating. Since she was doing triangular numbers, I told her that is what they are called. She then started mentally continuing the list of triangular numbers.

Then, a few days later, for some reason she started doing 2*2, 3*3, 4*4... that day she was busy with something else, so I did not mention those were square numbers.

Achievement test will certainly not ask for triangular numbers; and that is the type of math we do. In short, we do feed her brain and we do use learning opportunities, but we do not currently do direct teaching. However, her achievement scores were still very high.

In short, I guess that many HG+ kids will still continue to learn, they seem to be able to figure things out and acquire knowledge through osmosis.

I agree though, that a very bad school experience might slow them down. Also, like PP, extreme conditions could slow/stop a PG child's ability to progress.

I agree, also. We have achievement scores for DS7 from about 4 months after we started homeschooling at 6, after a very unchallenging K experience, and then again this past Spring at 7 (we use the WJ-III annually to satisfy homeschooling laws). The only place we saw a huge difference after specific instruction was his calculation score that went up by almost 20 points, all the other subtests were pretty much the same.

The first tester told me that he solved a division word problem by drawing it out on paper- and I *know* I hadn't taught him division. He didn't know how to calculate it, but he knew that if he had had x number of something and he needed to split it up evenly into y number of groups, then he could do it with dots on the paper.

We're pretty relaxed homeschoolers, with DS7 directing most of our work and the testing shows that I'm not actually increasing the rate that he learns- he's going to pick things with or without me. For him, the difference is that he's a happier person when he has easy access to information and ideas, rather than having to fight tooth and nail to get the things he needs.

I don't think most people here are doing a lot of traditional academics outside of school.

I tend to push DS8 a bit more on his homeschooling work this year, but only for official schoolwork, and that's because I want him learning a work ethic rather than because I want him to achieve more.

I'm not unusual. I know many of us here are child-led like that and not pushing achievement. I'd guess it's the majority, in fact.

People who do more formal afterschooling usually do it because their particular kids need it, crave it, are miserable without it. Not because their kids would underachieve without it.

I could be wrong (and often am!) but that's my perception.

Ah, this brings back memories! We also went down this road - my DS could quote all of Simon and Garfunkle's lyrics in K. We also thought that if we were very good parents, and didn't step outside the lines, that we could send our DS to his regular neighborhood school and he could be a regular neighborhood kid. I really resent the extreames I went to to restrain myself from mentioning anything 'school-y' even when it came up in conversation. So preK we would talk about Infinity, but postK we only talked about topics that we were pretty sure wouldn't come up in school. And as you have found - all for nothing.

OTGMom - if you child is PG, borderline PG, or 'only HG' or 'only MG' it doesn't matter a bit - he still deserves to be taught at this readiness level. All children deserve this. It has been helpful to me to have my son score 'that way' on tests so I can 'really believe' that the reason he was bored in school wasn't some defect in his character.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

LOL my son did this too! His principal in K was Mrs. Robinson and when he met her he said "hey, just like the song!" I suspect that was the first time she'd heard that from a 4 year old