with the WJ-III at a place called Learning Rx. Has anyone ever heard of this place? They have franchises all over the country, and they claim to boost your child's cognitive abilities with their program. I went there simply for the testing, and have no interest in their program only because it's an hour drive away.. ..I honestly haven't even looked in to their classes because I have no plans on using them. I was very upfront about this with them, but I have a feeling that when I go back next week for the results, they will try to talk me in to signing up. On the way home I had this horrible thought that what if they score the test wrong/poorly on purpose to make my kids seem like they really need help! Just to try to get me to sign on! I know, I know that must sound crazy. Someone smack me please!

I haven't heard of them before, but I am curious now. Can you give a ballpark on what they charge for a single W-J III? I'm sure that they wouldn't play with the actual scores, but perhaps they might play them up or down to sell their services.

I too would be concerned. I put this style right up there with the greasy used/new car salesman tactic. Okay it probably is not that bad but red flags go up with the addition of the program to enhance their cognitive abilities. And because of this I would be drawing the same conclusion or concerns that you have about poorly testing the kids. However if they are a national chain they wouldn't have got to that level without some checks and balances and word of mouth so they probably wouldn't throw the tests but Lorel is right they would probably downplay the scores in hopes of you signing up for the program. (Just talking myself off the ledge.)

They charge $99 for the test(cognitive and abilities tests) and a 1 hour consult to go over the results. DS took the WISC last year, but I didn't tell them that. So if his scores are way off from his WISC, I'll know somethings up. Thanks for not making me feel crazy

RJH- We have a similar place near us that does the WJ-III too for placement into their tutoring program. I have heard they have 2 decent testers for the 7+ set but that they are terrible with the younger kids because they have no clue what to do with them if they quit or wiggle. I don't think you're crazy- we've looked into doing it there as well but with DS being 5 1/2 and wiggly, we'll have to find another option.

DD5nextmonth, was actually tested by the owner(older man, and very nice)so I'm hoping he has lots of experience with "spirited" children. I know she was a pain to test. She told me after we left that she was trying to play hide and seek with him while he was testing her. I told her she shouldn't have done that, and her reply was "He didn't mind, actually he told me I was as smart as a 7 year old." LOL!

DS's tester looked to be about college age. But I know he cooperated fully. He's great that way.

I got a flyer from Learning Rx but it never occurred to me to just use them for testing - I'll be curious as to what you think of the results and your experience.

They sound legit, and I'd be tempted to try them for kid number four if they had a place closer to me.

I just got back with the test results. DS scores were very similar to his WISC scores, so I feel like they tested him properly. But like Lorel mentioned, they did harp on his one weakness.....processing speed. He scored 2-3 years older in all of the other areas. Processing speed was 2 months under his age. So she mentions ADD, and says how much this will hurt him in all areas of his life, etc. I feel like he can be a little distractible, but nothing that affects him on a major level. When he was in public school it was never a problem.

DDalmost5 scores were very impressive....for the tests she actually cooperated with. But I new she would be hard to test. 4 out of the 8 tests she wouldn't participate in, but the 4 she did were in the 94-98% range.

Overall, I'm glad I have the extra data. The one thing I'm not happy about is not having and actual score. She said they don't give a final number so to speak. She guaranteed that their program would help DS with processing speed, but I'm not willing to plop down $3000 to find out. What to you guys think about processing speed issues? Not a big deal? Things I can do at home to help?

Do things at home, definitely!

"2 months below age" is pretty meaningless. That's average, and that's fine. It might work as a pinch point for learning, as speed does for my DS7, but it's not a real problem if you keep in mind that he can't help his speed, that it's real and not just dawdling. It's more of an area to keep in mind and a weakness to fiddle with briefly but often. Probably your DS is going to be a "deep, but not fast kid," just like mine. It makes grade skips harder, since they work at the speed of a kid their own age but think like a kid older. <shrug> Otherwise, no real trial except to your patience.

But I wouldn't spend $3000 for working on speed, unless you needed that higher processing speed for some specific reason (program, planned grade skip, etc.) No way!

Um - what are the credentials of this person who is making a diagnosis of "ADD" on the basis of an IQ test? Was a clinical interview done? Rating forms? Other cognitive testing?

Yeah, that bothered me, too. My son has a slower processing speed than his mental ability, but there's no WAY anyone would call him ADD. He's a laser!

It seems like a weird thing to throw out there based on this evidence.

Thanks, Jool. I meant to say something about that and got distracted. (I'm supposed to be organizing my homeschooling stuff, but I'm resisting, so I'm sort of all over the place today! )

I had to fill out a form before he was tested that asked me all the "scale of 1-5" type questions. Distractibility was one of them....I think I put a 3. So that might be where she got that. But to me it's more of a gifted type thing with DS. He will be working on one thing, and all of a sudden it brings up some other question that he wants to know more about and he completely forgets what his original goal was. Because of the homeschooling, we can do that. He does eventually complete the original task.....sometimes with lots of redirection from me, though.

The Dr that did his WISC also mentioned ADD, but didn't seem that concerned.....said further testing was up to me.

Well, as you're describing it, I see this with my son, too, and I think it *is* the processing speed thing. But I don't think it's related in any way to ADD, in my totally uninformed layperson's opinion, worth about half what you paid for it. (You have been warned there!)

What I see is that my DS just transitions more slowly, so once gets on another train of thought, he tends to stay there, especially if it's a more interesting train for him than the original.

In fact, it almost seems to me to be the opposite of ADD--thus my laser comment. It's not like he's flitting fast from one thing to another, it's more like he has a hard time moving from one thing to another, so once he goes, he's gone and he stays there.

Does that sound like what you're seeing, or is this totally different?

If I'm seeing what you're seeing, then I do think this is one perfectly normal path of development for the age of your son. It's not HG+ processing; it's ND. But it *is* normal!

And FWIW, I already see signs that DS7 is outgrowing it somewhat. He's still not lightning-quick like some HG+ kids are (and I doubt he ever will be), but he definitely does better with getting back on task when necessary without needing so much time to transition.

I guess I think he's just an ND kid in that particular area, and he's developing normally, and that's fine. <shrug> But I am no expert.

Yes, exactly! Just like you are describing. But what person wouldn't want to learn about stuff that interests them more, ya know? It's like he's not satisfied until he completely thinks through whatever thought distracted him. Sometimes that takes 1 minute, and sometimes it takes hours.

The lady today said "imagine a big cloud in front of his brain. If that was lifted, he could learn even faster." I'm not buying that though. I could be completely wrong, but I don't see how processing speed can be taught.

Well, I do think you can work on it and see improvement. We do, just as we would on any other weak area. But especially if you're homeschooling, I don't really see the point of anything official. (Especially not for $3000!) It's just not necessary, particularly since you're homeschooling. As long as he progresses over time, he's just a normally developing kid in terms of speed. I don't think that's a bad thing. <shrug>

We just adapt the way we work to DS7's needs, almost as if it were an LD. It isn't one, but given how much deeper he can think than he can process, it does kind of function like one.

Now, in the traditional school situation in 1st grade, the conflict was becoming a real problem and might have required some more pointed handling, like an LD. It was really awful. When you have teachers with PG test results in their faces saying "he's slow," it's bad! They associate fast with GT. Slow and deep generally wins no recognition in the schools.

But at home, when you can tailor school to his needs, it's just not a big deal. I just allow more time for things, try to minimize more interesting distractions when he's working, give him plenty of time to really burrow into a subject and think it through, and respond with patience (Well, with as much patience as I can muster! Not my strong suit! ) when necessary to redirect him back on task. It's no big deal.

I don't have a problem with his being a deep thinker. I do think it will serve him well later in life. Fast isn't always best.

Do be warned that in the future, timed tests for things like his multiplication tables will be a hassle for you. DS7 hates them. He can get pretty stressed out over such things. He actually works faster without a clock on him because he gets panicky and simply can't think if he knows he's being timed. Just be prepared...You may have to find creative ways to deal with math facts literacy, and it may take longer to get there. The normal routes don't work very well for a kid like this.

Case in point: DS7 is still memorizing times tables while he does high school geometry and junior high critical thinking exercises and pre-algebra. It's weird, but I think that's the sort of thing you have to do with a kid who's not fitting the mold. He needs highly advanced concepts for a kid his age, but he has to spend extra time on the stuff that is more typical for his age. I'm figuring that as long as he has his times tables memorized by the "normal" time for kids, say age 9, then we're doing fine. That is probably developmentally appropriate for him and his processing speed.

It does make it harder to figure out what to do for math though! Curriculum just isn't a straight line for us. I'm mostly flying by the seat of my pants.

Please keep in touch with me on this, will you? It seems like we should really be sharing notes!

The funny thing is, that he has no problems with memorization. He pretty much has a photographic memory...especially with math. His math is what he's accelerated in the most. But to get him to write a paragraph....grrrrr! It's like pulling teeth. But yet on the WISC and the WJ-III, his verbal scores were his highest. Maybe that doesn't translate over into writing. When he's trying to write a story/paragraph he says "I have too many ideas in my head at one time, and it's too hard to sort them out." And I can see his frustration with that

Interesting...

As a former writing teacher, I'd recommend a) a tape/voice recorder so he can talk it out as fast as it comes, b) time for drafting so that he doesn't feel like it has to be out and done and perfect the first time.

I have to process writing aloud often, and I'm writing a novel. I often recommended that my college students read their work aloud as they were writing because hearing it can help them to get what's actually translating between mind and paper.

If that makes any sense... I'm so tired, I'm not sure MY mind is working here!

I just have to chime in here. My DS's verbal scores were the highest too and to get him to write was a chore!!! He also has no problems with memorization either. It was very confusing to be honest. However, we found that he have visual tracking/processing problems that caused him to hate to write. This can also appear to be ADD type symptoms. Have you considered this? If so, check out www.covd.org and see what you think.

Doesn't sound the least big crazy. Sounds like healthy skepticism to me. I hate to rain on the Learning Rx parade, but... I have a problem with their financial conflict of interest. The biggest red flag, though, is the shelling out of the ADD (and who knows what other) diagnosis . Feel free to challenge this bold statement -- I suspect that no reputable expert on ADHD or learning disabilities would approve of their methods. If you could take advantage of the cheap testing and get someone else to analyze the raw data that would be one thing, but raw data is not supposed to be released to the public. Sometimes you get what you pay for...

OT: Kriston, can you recommend a tape recorder for DC? I would assume these days most are digital and not tape?

ALso, I recall a friend posting that ADD is not only flitting from one thought to another, it's also tunnel vision ie inability to shift focus when it's required or needed. What I took from the conversation is that it's an inability to control attention, be it to maintain focus on something or to stop focusing on something.

Hyperfocus...(I love that word)
http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/612.html

Yes, but I don't think the hyperfocus version of ADD works with my son either, at least not in any negative sense. He just doesn't *like* to shift focus...and he *is* just 7! I mean, as RJH said, at that age they usually don't want to do what they don't want to do, you know? DS7 can actually multitask pretty effectively. He just prefers not to, and when he does, he has to do it at his speed.

Honestly, no one has ever even hinted at ADD for my son. Never! (And isn't that unusual for a HG+ boy in a bad school fit with behavior problems cropping up? I mean, isn't that what they always go for?) It's just not something I see at all, in any form. Can't speak for RJH, of course. Maybe her case is different? But I just see that my son processes things slower than his HG+ depth--but normally for his age!--as his scores indicate (and as I saw before he was tested). Not with difficulty, not without focus or with trouble controlling his focus...just slowly.

Of course, before I had his scores, I called him a dawdler and got mad at him. Now I'm a great deal more understanding.

But ADD? No. Not something I see.

And frankly, even if I did see it as hyperfocus ADD, I'd probably be doing exactly what I'm doing anyway. Adjusting. He certainly doesn't need medication or anything else. He's doing fine.

And BTW, I love to get hyperfocused. I call it "flow" and use it well when I'm writing or reading something intense. Not a bad thing at all!

As for a recorder, I don't have anything in particular I'd recommend. Something cheap, easy to use and portable, but tough enough to withstand a kid being a kid. I'd probably just hit Radio Shack and see what's there, or maybe a department store for a really young child to get one of those Playskool or Fisher Price ones specially made for kids to bang on.

I will say after reading the whole article that just like the tale they tell, when I was a kid, if I were reading when my mom would call me for dinner, I wouldn't even hear her. Maybe I have hyperfocus ADD?

Other than that one issue, it was never a problem though. Actually, it was a total asset that got me through school and jobs with flying colors!

Hmmm...

If it doesn't cause major problems, it's not a disorder. DS6 "hyperfocuses" and tunes out the rest of the world when he is absorbed in something and (other than aggravating me at times) it probably helps him more than anything. And he doesn't come close to having ADHD.

Anyhow, D&C, I think your point is good - that ADHD causes difficulty regulating attention, not just distractibility.

DH's ADD didn't cause him any problems until he had to balance work, home, family etc as an adult. Through his PhD there were no problems. But with all the interruptions of adult life, he had a hard time switching focus and found it exhausting and was grumpy all the time. Hyperfocus is great; the problem is when you can't find the intermediate levels of focus necessary for making dinner and making sure your kid doesn't run in the street, while talking to your spouse about the day. kwim?

Yes, agreed.

That's what I don't see from DS7. I probably have more of a problem with it than he does.

I don't have a diagnosis of ADHD but I definitely benefitted from reading this book: http://www.amazon.com/ADD-Friendly-Ways-Organize-Your-Life/dp/1583913580

I'm scattered and disorganized in an adhd-like way but I like to think of these as quirks, not impairments. But that doesn't mean that I can't try to work on things that annoy my DH at times...

It's scary to think of the diagnosis that could easily be slapped on me.

Sounds exactly like DS12 at age 7. We actually had 'school incidents' where he would just stall and cry when he was supposed to do a 'write a story that starts with the little half sentence we give you.' Then the teacher said he was 'uncooperative.'

Part of it was that his awareness of standards of what 'good writing' sounded like were much higher than what he could achieve. As he's gotten older he has a better understanding of what is age and grade appropriate, but back then anything shy of "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" with computer printing was heartbreaking.

What helped:
a) learning to type so that he could get those words out fast. I started bribing him to do 'Mavis Becon Typing' at age 7, and he was functional by age 9, amazing by age 10. It opened up a whole world for him.

b) As he got older, his brain did grow in a way that now that he can use a graphic organizer, he needs one less than ever. He does have a nice big Working Memory, so maybe that is why.

c) 3td grade teacher assigned a writing assignment that was so big and so long that he finally got over the 'it has to be perfect' and into the 'punch drunk - put anything down' stage of writing. I love that stage. He had to write a paragraph for each letter of the alphabet for something that had to do with winter in our State.

We finally go laughing around letter X. Something like: X is for Xray when you slip on the ice and break all your bones. I could tell that his 'inner critic' had gone somewhere warm on vacation and he just wanted to get through those last few letters.

BTW - how brilliant is a teacher who lets the last two weeks before the winter holiday break be all day writing workshops for jumpy little pre-holiday kids? It was so nice not to be having behavior complaint phone calls. I think it was because the kids were all individually as engaged as they could be. My favorite teacher!

Hope that helps.
Grinity

I think you hit smack-dab on what I was talking around, Jool. Thanks for that!

I don't like the idea that because my son has a "quirk," he could be diagnosed with something. I get the sense (perhaps wrongly!) that RJH doesn't necessarily like that either.

Not everything different from the norm is bad. Sometimes different is a strength! And even if it is a weakness, it doesn't necessarily require a label and a diagnosis. It may just require a bit of behavior modification, as you're doing for your DH's sake.

I know I'm preaching to the choir about that, but still...

Yes, it seems every quirk these days comes with a diagnosis.

I think my friend's point was that ADD is the inability to control focus even when DC WANTS to. So if a child loses himself in what he's doing and simply doesn't want to stop for dinner, that's entirely different from the child who can't shift focus even though he/she is starving.

I just read the term "flow" in a book I was reading.

Yes! That's it exactly! I think it's the difference between productivity (even enhanced productivity!) and interference with daily life.

Problems need to be managed; quirks don't.

They did cog and achievement. The tests they gave are: long term memory, short term memory, visual processing, logic and reasoning, executive processing speed, word attack, and auditory processing.

I never thought about it that way, but that makes perfect sense! His reading level is so high, so maybe he thinks if he can't write like that, then why bother. That lovely GT perfectionism.

Exactly! I have no plans to pursue ADD testing at all. I think a lot of it he will out grow, and the rest.....well, it's just the way he is....always thinking deep.

I just looked closer at the test results, and the word attack, and aud processing they are calling ACH. And the rest have COG beside them. Here are their definitions:

Word Attack: measures the knowledge of and application of sound codes in order to pronounce unknown words.

Auditory processing: measures the ability to analyze, blend, segment, and synthesize speech sounds.

Thanks, Dottie. I wish I would have asked them exactly what tests they were going to give. I thought it would be best to get the COG portion, so that's why I went to them. You think the ACH info is better? There are several testers in my area that only give the ACH portion. Should I try that in the spring?

I'll just chime in to back Dottie that having both sets of scores really helped us.

I was worried by DS7's lower PSI score--fearing a problem--until Dottie pointed out to me that given how well he did on his achievement testing, it wasn't a problem.

I think even a mismatch can be useful, in its own way.