Help! How do I initiate the process of having my child evaluated? We (her parents and grandparents) have known since birth that she is GT.
To give some background: She is only 5, but her teacher is beginning to seriously "pick on" her and continuously gives her bad marks for talking (she is counting to herself by 100's in order to keep her mind stimulated during inactivity) and "being mean to others" (she is actually delegating and trying to lead her classmates). She also has an extreme sense of justice, morals, and right vs. wrong which is misinterpreted by her teacher as "being mean" and "disrupting". When she challenges the teacher on facts, etc. she gets into trouble. She rejects repetitious learning of things that she has been doing since she was 2 or 3, and the teacher interprets this as failure to follow the rules! Because of all this misunderstanding of her by her teacher, my child's grades are beginning to drop. Also, she is constantly getting N's on her report card for her "bad" conduct. I am terrified that her teacher might try to fail her b/c of her "bad" conduct marks and behavior!
So how do I get her evaluated? Should I ask for a new teacher? or should I ask for a mid-year grade skip (at 3.5yrs she was operating at a 1st-2nd grade level)? We just moved to a small town and I was assured that "our teacher's are trained to recognize giftedness, blah, blah" but I think they were just pulling my leg. I was told that she COULD NOT skip kindergarten and that grade skipping is "strongly discouraged b/c kids need to be in class with their peers". But I know my child and the way things are IS NOT working! Help!?

Hi AMS's mom - i'm sorry things are going so poorly for your DD5.

My gut reaction would be to ask for a different teacher, but first give this one a chance to explain. By that I mean have you told her everything that your daughter can do and explained that she needs more of a challenge, and that's why she's acting out. I'm guessing you've already done this by the sounds of things, but just laying it out. It kind of sounds like this teacher has pegged your DD as a trouble-maker, and it might be best to get out of that classroom if possible.

Is there a gifted coordinator or similar position at your DD's school? It might help to contact her and ask about testing. Also, she might have some suggestions for better teacher placement. If no gifted coordinator, might be time to contact the principal.

It might also help to look at your state's dept of education website and see if there's a GT person who can speak with who can tell you about the laws in your state. Some state's and/or district's require that a child be evaluated upon the parent's request. there may also be some resources on the website to answer some of your questions.

If your school does not do testing and your state does not require it, it might be worthwhile to get private testing. You can start by looking at Hoagiesgifted.org: http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/psychologists.htm.

Is there a GT parent group at the school? Maybe you could contact someone through that. Also, you'll want to see what you're fighting for before you get testing. If this school doesn't offer any acceleration in subject matter or class, or any differentiation for gifted kids, you may need to seek alternatives.

Just random thoughts from someone who doesn't yet have a kid in school yet. HTH.

Well, I just got home from a meeting with her teacher. By the way, my assumption was correct-it is her first year teaching!
She informed me that my daughter is in the highest division of her class (apparently the class is separated into 4 divisions based on "intellect"). She also said my DD5 is extremely good at math. I told her that she needs to be challenged more in order to calm her "acting out" and I was assured that beginning next semester the curriculum will be more challenging (yeah, right).
She also said that my DD5 has an almost explosive rage that comes out and is directed to the other kids. I tried to explain that this is how GT's react towards peers who are not at their same level, but my MIL was there and I have to be careful about using the "GT" word in her presence.
Her school has a program for GT students starting in 3rd grade! So what do I do in the mean time? This school has a policy that they do not skip grades and they promote "grouping students", which means students of all levels in the same classroom in order to benefit the "less smart" (trying to be politically correct) children. But this is damaging the high intelligence children. I am at a loss as to how I am going to be able to convince them about her unique needs. It seems like I would be better off pulling her out and home schooling. But, if I do that I am going to have another equally irritating issue: resistance from the mother-in-law.
I picked up some special education pamphlets on the way out and I plan on calling them for any advice/leads. I also plan on calling a meeting with my husband, the principal, school counselor, and a special education teacher. Do you think this will help? Thanks!

Hi -

My child is still in preschool so I have no direct advice.

That being said, I can hear your frustration and have been in bad fit (preschool) situations before... It is so hard when the teacher/school administration a) don't "get" your child and b) can't even hear what you are trying to tell them.

Until the other wise and experienced Moms and Dads have a chance to respond to your post I would encourage you to do the following:

- take a deep breath
- read through the archives (previous posts) on this board.

There are a lot of folks who have been in situations similar to your who have successfully advocated for their children and/or found other options.

Hi AMS's mom,

I agree with SPG that you should look up what your state defines as far as IDing and services.

If you can't compel the school to i.d., you may want to pay for a private evaluation with a child psychologist that specializes in testing for gifted.

I've been advocating for my kids for a couple of years now. Their services don't start until 3rd grade either. On this board, most of us will agree that the behavior is a result of being understimulated, but you won't get very far with the school if you simply say she's acting out because she is bored.

Kindergarten is a rough year for some GT kids. If you are going to advocate at school, my suggestion would be to slow down and figure out what you want accomplished.

Use this forum as a sounding board to figure out how you want to present the situation before you go in. There is nothing more personal to you than your child's welfare. However, when you meet with the school, it's a "business" meeting to them. They have tons of then during the week. That's not meant to minimize the importance of what's happening to your child, just know what you are getting into before you walk in the door.

You might not get too far if you call a "power meeting" and you don't have anything tangible to present, like IQ or achievement testing results.

Actually, it's not good for all kids, not just the HG+ ones. Ability grouping--at least to some extent--is really the best way to go. No time to go look up the studies I've read on it right now, but it's pretty well documented.

Interestingly, it's best to put the highest group in one class and the above-average kids in a separate class. This gives the high-average kids the best chance to feel good about their abilities and shine. Competition with GT kids is apparently quite detrimental to them.

If anyone doubts my claims, I'll look for the sources later. Was this Karen Rogers' work? Dottie, do you know off-hand?

We started homeschooling for some of the same reasons. IL's were not supportive at first either, but as soon as they saw how much DS was learning, and not being held back at PS, they were 100% supportive. If you have the calling to homeschool, don't let others influence you otherwise. And HS'ing doesn't have to be a permanent solution. You can always try it for a few months, and see how it goes

As far as testing goes, if you want it done quick, I wouldn't bother with the school. Private testing will be quicker but can cost quite a bit. I found a local university who will be testing my DD with the WPPSI III for $75.

Good point, Kriston.

AMS mom: How did you hear about grouping? The teacher, other moms? If the teacher did, did she say grouping and then explain it the way you defined? Could she have said ability grouping?

RJH we crossposted. Again, good to dig up the laws defining all of this stuff. In IL, a child isn't even truant until 7, I think. Homeschooling is legal with essentially no paramaters currently legislated.

Our youngest had an awful time in K, I should have taken action sooner. She's in first now and is pretty happy, but her real learning needs are not being met, IMO.

We will be homeschooling her next year and then she will re-enroll for third, take the qualifying tests for gifted services and we'll go from there.

There are a lot of options.

Both of my daughters had IQ testing and I've found it very helpful as a reference point for making these decisions.

I would request, in writing (not phone or email) that your child be evaluated for academic readiness level and 'rage.'

Also, Request a chance to sit in your child's classroom so you can better understand what the teacher is seeing. Request a chance to sit and quietly observe the 1st and 2nd grade teachers, to see if you see any signs of 'intelligent life in the universe.'

I think that the real question here is: 'How many hours of misery a day is ok for my kid?' If you have no options, then you have no options, but it's very sad. One approach is to wait for things to get worse, and then the school may be more willing to do an evaluation. Bad grades in kindy aren't a long term problem, but a teacher who says mean things about your kid in the teacher's lounge is.

Grimity

You mean "range" there in the first line, right Grinity? Not "rage?"

Most typos don't matter, but if that's not a typo, it could change the request substantially!

And I agree 100% with the question "How many hours of misery a day are ok for my kid?" I think that really puts things into perspective in thsi sort of situation. Good call, Grin!

Maybe she means "rage to master" ?

Or rage at being underchallenged?

Still I don't think she meant that anyone should go to a school and ask to test a child's rage! I don't think that would get a positive response!

I could be wrong though...

LOL!

The "grouping" term came from a school policy pamphlet that I picked up. In it it states "Research shows most children learn best in mixed groups. These are sometimes called 'inclusive classrooms'. They include children with varying abilities and disabilities. Some children may still leave the classroom for special instruction for part of the day." There is a silver lining, though, as the same pamphlet does state "There are exceptions. The very gifted and the very disabled, usually do require special grouping."
Her teacher informed me that she divides her class into groups based on ability and my DD5 is in the top group. Her very next sentence (which I neglected to say in my last post) however, was that she then divides the top group and puts one of those students into each of the "lower" ability groups in order for that group to see that it can be learned. I immediately asked her if this is the time period in which my DD5 starts acting up and she literally jumped in her chair as though I had just shot her! Her eyes got big and her jaw dropped! I just smiled and said "see, that's the problem."
Funny story: the teacher gave me a word list and said that her advise is to work with my child on these words. Once she learns them she can begin to take books home. The teacher said maybe this would keep her mind busy and she won't be so bored. So I did...and within 5 minutes she could spell the words to me from the other side of the house while watching TV and, of course, could also read them off the page. Take that teacher, great idea you had, now what?
With regards to the "rage". I myself have witnessed this. However, I do not believe it is being interpreted correctly. I believe it is impatience and frustration with the other kids. If you listen to what she says when she "lashes out" it is usually something like "How many times have I said?" or "Leave me alone I can do it myself" or "I've asked you to stop that 3 times." I do agree that her behavior needs to be redirected. On the other hand, I know/have observed that it only happens around her same-age peers. If she is playing with older kids or adults, she does not behave this way. Also, the other kids provoke and pick on her by stealing her gloves or crayons and hiding them. They also bombard her with questions like "why do you do this...why do you do that?"
anyway, just wanted to answer some of the question that were asked. Thanks for the advise so far. I think I am going to try to get her tested. My husband also had the idea to homeschool her throughout the summer so, in his words, the school will have no option but to grade skip.

...She did sign that post Grimity!

To paraphrase Dr Phil, "let me know how that works for you".

I'm in a cynical mood, can anyone tell??

If it were only that easy.........((sigh))

Good luck with that and God love ya if you pull it off!

School districts usually have policies regarding these things, these policies are often based on the state's legislative decisions.

I'm glad your school states it's policies of inclusion for all students. It's pretty much illegal to state otherwise.

Sometimes school have an official and "unofficial" policy about what goes on in the classroom. If your teacher ability groups that's fantastic, and not to be confused AT ALL with tracking, BTW.

Sounds like the teacher made a great connection between her working with the lower groups and DD's frustration level. Most teachers worth their weight would adjust a situation that they observe causes the child undue stress. This by the way, it a good way to approach the principal if it's not resolved. You have more teeth if you approach it from that direction.

Be nice to the teacher, I know you feel angry. She's your best shot at the moment of rectifying the situation in a short amount of time. It seems if she wants to do the right thing. Maybe she's never experienced a child as advanced as yours. BTW, newer teachers can be the best teacher these kids have because sometimes they are more open to the parents suggestions.

The worst year either of our children ever had was with the most senior experienced K teacher in the district.

It would be nice if we could have one conversation with the school and then everything will go smoothly after that. That hasn't happened yet here! I recently resigned myself to the fact that I will never ever get to just drop off, pick up and everything is fine. It will be consistent communication with the school and there will be problems. I actually mourned my dead fantasy of pick up drop off smiles all around. I actually cried!

Lastly, and there's no way to sugar coat this, if you approach the school with these words or this attitude: She is acting out because she is bored/not challenged.....you are sunk before you start.

Gratified is correct.

Maybe something along the lines of: "Well I think we've figured out a trigger for her frustration. What can we do in class to alleviate her frustration, and WHAT CAN I DO AT HOME TO HELP HER FIND A MORE PRODUCTIVE WAY TO EXPRESS IT".

We aren't trying to bag on you, we're tying to give you helpful advice, we've all been there and I know I've made some mistakes. I wish someone would have told me.......

I definately think testing is a great idea. Most of our kids have reported just LOVING it! It will help you justify her unique situation when you talk to the school. If you homeschool if can give you a reference point in terms of what's appropriate and how fast she'll burn through courses.

((hugs and more hugs-line "borrowed" from Grinity))

Cheering you on,

Neato

crossposted with ya Oma! Well, these situations tend to bring out the worst in us, yes? Some of this advocating stuff is NOT fun..........

I just chatted with another mom who's dd7 is in first and reading like crazy and just a serious perfectionist and she know's her dd is gifted and wants her to be tested.
We are in the same county so I was able to give her some info, I also pointed her to this website.
The teacher has given her the impression that she can't apply without the teacher's recommendation, I told her that is definitely *not* the case. I am not sure she believed me - but the point is: finding out your district's policies will be to your serious advantage. When the teacher or admin folks try to shut you down on things such as testing early, grade skipping, etc. with various excuses and lines you will be much more able to keep the ball rolling steadily towards your goal of more challenge for your daughter.

Good luck!

I sounds like you are doing a great job with a kid who doesn't fit societies expectations of how a 'good little girl should act.' The fact that the teacher is lableing the behavior as 'rage' worries me, (you describe the behavior, and identify the causes, the teacher is giving a value laden discription that tends to give an intrapersonal cause) but the fact that the teacher made the mental connection is hopeful. We had to accept the lable that of our son as 'having a difficult time reading social cues' so that he could stay in the elementary school system during the time that we felt that we had no choices. Do I still resent it 'to this very day?' ((One of those phrases that always shows up in my son's writing.))

Yes I do!

Anyway, once we accepted the lable, then we could ask the school for particular accomidations - such as not working in mixed ability groups - where his difficulty might lead to frustration all around. That was the best we could do. I think it stinks. I will say that my DS is now 12, and is much better behaved 'on the outside' when he's placed in mixed ability groups. Now he sort of accepts that he'll just do all the work. At least in Middle School the kids for whom he does do 'all the work' are grateful and don't try to run things. I think it stinks, because actually teaching the children, including mine, how to work together in a group is an important life skill.

I mean, nowadays teachers teach how to take notes from a lecture and how to annotate a book, but I've never seen a rubrik with 'group process' notes on it:

'Did everyone get to speak once before some spoke twice?'
'Did each person find something to praise about each of the others?'
'Did each person have a chance to restate what they understood their job to be?'
'Was there a notetaker who made notes on what parts of the task each person committed to?'

I never have. I guess a family could draw up their own rubrik and have a group project at home...

I just think that there are some kids who shouldn't be placed in impossible situations, and a 5 year old with ODP in a mixed ability group project without adult supervision sounds like an impossible situation to me. The other thing I notice is that adults tend to have a very hard time listening to the actual words of kids and taking them literally. So when your daughter says "I've asked you to stop 3 times." and then lashes out, many people will act like something very mysterious happened. Weird, huh?

BTW, I'm asking myself how I feel when I have to be in the same situation as your daughter at work. I have a lot of strong feeling on the inside that it has taken my many many years to learn how to 'dial down' so that I can move toward my goal of making the bad situation better.

I like the idea of homeschooling over the summer. Getting to know your child as a learner isn't ever a bad thing.

Oh! I threw in the abreviation ODP back there - sorry. It's a bit of slang we've been using around here. The teacher may not get it, but my aunt knew instantly what I was talking about. ((Good News: It's not that we are 'Impossible' we just have ODP! - we laughed and laughed!))

ODP is short for 'outer-directed perfectionism' it has a bit of the feeling of 'not suffering fools gladly' but explains the short fuse that can occur when person A has much higher goals than the situation calls for, and they have to collaborate with person B to move toward the goal. Like 'inner-directed perfectionism' it calls for a classroom situation where the child is closer to their 'learning readiness level,' plus some chances for person A to cry and storm about it in private with Mom or Dad, and Mom and Dad persistiently demand that person A get back in there and try again to behave kindly to all people in every instance.

I think part of growing up is to be able to acknowledge that we feel one way, but keep deciding to act according to our values. It takes many many years, and is part of our parental job description. You aren't bad that your dd hasn't gotten there by age 5 or age 8 or age 12. ((OF course at age 12 she will be viewed as normal to act that way, but that's another story. Weirdly, all kinds of behaviors that created lots of stir in elementary school are now totally excused because of 'hormones.' Weird!))

Anyway, it's a wild ride, and I hope you'll get something of value by sticking around here to ride along with us. It's not like I can talk about this in my neighborhood! I think talking must be an important part of parenting because most parents do so much of it.

Love and more Love,
Grinity