Hi all. I've looked through a lot of the posts on here the last couple of days and I'm wondering if I'm even crazy for even wondering if DS may be gifted in any way, but I know it's not uncommon for both siblings. Anyhow, a little background...

DD (who is now 10) was obviously advanced from birth - alert, needed little sleep, curious, etc. She was accepted onto the local school's gifted program last year. I do not know her test results, IQ, etc. as it was done through the school, however I have requested a copy of them. DS (just turned 8) had just turned 6 when we had him evaluated because he wasn't doing well at school. We thought he had dyslexia like my husband (who I wouldn't be surprised at all if he is gifted, he is exceptionally smart) and were surprised when he was diagnosed with ADHD, Overanxious Disorder of Childhood, Dysgraphia and "possible" ASD (due to his excessive emotions and need for routine only). On the WISC-IV, he scored in the High Average and Very Superior range in similarities and matrix reasoning (both involving abstract thought) so I'm wondering if he is gifted in one area but it was missed because of variation in scores? I may of course be talking out of the back of my head. I'm still proud of him whether he's gifted or not but would kick myself if it turned out later that he is and I didn't take the opportunity to nurture it. Anyway, enough talk, here are his WISC-IV, WRAT-4 and Woodcock-Johnson Tests of Achievement III. Please advise if I am seeing something that isn't there:

WISC-IV
VCI - Standard Score 108 (70th %)
Similarities 12
Vocabulary 11
Comprehension 12

PRI - Standard Score 121 (92nd %)
Block Design 10
Picture Concepts 13
Matrix Reasoning 17

WMI Standard Score 94 (34th %)
Digit Span 9
Letter-Number Sequencing 9

PSI Standard Score 103 (58th %)
Coding 9
Symbol Search 12

FSIQ 110

WRAT-4

Word Reading 128 (97th %)
Sentence Comprehension 134 (99th %)
Spelling 113 (81st %)
Math Computation 124 (95th %)

Woodcock-Johnson Tests of Achievement III

Broad Reading Standard Score 127 (92nd %)
Letter Word Identification 126 (96th %)
Passage Comprehension 126 (96th %)
Reading Fluency 127 (85th %)

Broad Written Language Standard Score 126 (96th %)
Spelling 117 (88th %)
Writing Samples 127 (92nd %)
Writing Fluency 117 (88th %)

Broad Math Standard Score 126 (96th %)
Calculation 128 (97th %)
Applied Problems 122 (93rd %)
Math Fluency 106 (66th %)

So, thoughts? Should I have him retested?

Thanks so much!

Was he medicated for ADHD when he did the WISC? His WM and PS may have improved if he wasn't then but is now. Have you noticed improvement?

Hi there! Thank you for the reply! No, we don't medicate at all, then or now. He has, however, been under a Section 504 at school and has a fantastic teacher who specializes in kids with ADHD and he has come on leaps and bounds academically since (but nothing like at the level of his sister).

There's probably nothing there, he's smart but not gifted. I appreciate your response!

Testing is a small snapshot of a given day. Kids are more complex than what is captured with testing and can change over time. Gifted or not, all kids should be nurtured and challenged at the appropriate level.

If the test scores don't match what you're seeing in real life AND it is possible financially AND there are doors that retesting could open it might be something to consider. If the scores seem about right and school is working reasonably well and/or scores won't open any doors then I'd think seriously about what would be changed.

Testing a 6 year old is challenging, throw in some E's and it is even more challenging to get an accurate score. I would also add that smart kids can be VERY good at hiding their dyslexia so I wouldn't necessarily rule out the possibility unless you've gone through more extensive testing with a very experienced tester. (I'm assuming that all of your results were from age 6 where reading expectations aren't that high for a smart kid).

We tested our 2e DS (now 10) twice because he wasn't the most cooperative at 6.5 and at that point they said he was probably LD but they'd have to wait a couple years to be sure. The second set of results was very different and more closely matches our experiences with him. I would also caution against the assumption that all gifted kids look like x based on experience with a sibling. We REALLY underestimated DD (now 7) because in many ways she is nothing like DS.

chay, thank you so much for your response, it has really opened my eyes! This is very much along the lines I was thinking but of course DH thinks I'm reading too much into everything and comparing the kids too much. I think it's worth having him tested again, particularly as our out of pocket maximum has been reached on our insurance so it will cost us nothing. There's no harm right?

I'm actually wondering if DD is dyslexic at the moment. I've just noticed that she spells certain words wrong consistently (that weren't caught by the teacher) yet excels in reading and language. DH says no because she would be doing X, Y, Z and spelling X, Y, Z wrong like him. I told him that I've read that no two dyslexic people have exactly the same issues and yes, I have heard of stealth dyslexia in gifted children!

Now to persuade DH to get them tested....

Major caveats first (in addition to the obvious caveat that we don't have access to rich clinical observational or historical data):

1. He was young at time of testing, which has all sorts of implications for instability in test scores.
2. He was tested with untreated ADHD and anxiety, both of which tend to lower working memory and processing speed performance in particular, but can affect pretty much any test score.

That being said, I find notable:

1. Index score diversity: PRI, in the Superior range, is a fair bit higher than any of the others, which are all in the Average range.

2. Scaled score diversity: PRI has a 2.3 SD range, with the lowest score in the timed/motor/spatial task, and the highest score in the untimed/motor-free/fluid reasoning task. Less significant, but still of interest, PSI has a related split, with the motor-reduced task 1 SD above the motor-involved task.

1 & 2 taken together suggest to me that it is possible there is some kind of nonverbal giftedness in play, probably in combination with a language-based relative weakness, and perhaps motor coordination. Hence Dx of dysgraphia.

Moving on.

3. Generally strong academic performance: On the plus side, at age 6, appeared to be performing academically at a level consistent with the highest estimate of his cognitive ability, with exceptions (Average and High Average) in spelling, writing fluency, and math fluency, which are exactly the areas predicted by dysgraphia. Kudos to your evaluator. On the minus side, there were no measures that would identify deficits in phonetic decoding (dyslexia), only reading tasks that are amenable to whole-word reading as a compensatory strategy--well within the range for a bright child in a rich literacy environment, even one outside the GT range. (Keep in mind the word-level reading expected of children at the end of kindergarten pretty much consists of 50-150 Dolch sight words, and a few very simple decodables, like CVC words.)

If word-level reading deficits are in play, either in naked decoding, or in decoding fluency, these data are insufficient to rule them in or out. In my experience, it is not unusual for bright children with reading difficulties to start struggling during third or fourth grade, as their peers acquire fluency, and start obtaining an increasing percentage of their high-level language exposure from text, while the struggling readers are restricted to oral language.

As parents of a student on a 504 plan, you generally have a right to request a re-evaluation every two years (schools not uncommonly offer re-evaluations every three years), just like for IEPs. If you, he, and the school are all happy with his academic and global progress, then there is no particular urgency to re-evaluate him; good reasons might include access to additional supports, services, or resources (either for remediation or advancement).

If, at some point, you do choose to re-evaluate, another item that may have relevance for your child in particular is the revision of the WISC-V to a 5 factor structure, that separates the visual spatial tasks (e.g., block design, his lowest PRI score) from the fluid reasoning tasks (e.g., matrix reasoning, his highest score), potentially allowing the FRI (Fluid Reasoning Index) to rise above 130, into the formal GT range.

Thanks for your indepth response aeh, much appreciated. Yes,the big difference in the PRI compared to the others is what got me thinking. Also, he is very curious and goes indepth when talking about things he's interested in. He also worries excessively about things he shouldn't be worried about. Case in point - shortly before we had him tested and he started having issues with remembering things he would worry incessantly and say things like "momma, what if I can't remember things for work when I'm older?". I don't care who you are, no 6 year old should be worrying about that yet!

We have parent/teacher conferences coming up in the next couple of weeks so I'm going to broach the subject with his teacher and see what her input is.

Incidentally, I got my daughter's test results for her eligibility to the gifted program and I gotta say I was a little disappointed knowing what her actual ability is:

Mental Ability � CoGAT � (Cognitive Abilities Test) �
Verbal � 71%
Quantitative � 88%
Nonverbal � 84 %
Composite � 84%

Achievement � MAP � Reading � 91%

Creativity � Torrance � 92%

Motivation � Gifted Rating Scales � 98%

No intelligence test, is that normal? I always assumed they had to have a certain level of IQ to get in?

Not an expert here but what struck me is how close your two kids are in terms of both IQ/ability and achievement scores. Your DS scored 92nd percentile on Woodcock Johnson Broad Reading while your DD scored 92nd percentile on MAP Reading. The CoGAT is an ability test that is used as an IQ proxy and if you compare your DD's scores to your DS' IQ scores for VC and PRI and GAI (full scale IQ substitute discounting WM and PS), they are very close with your DS's scores slightly higher. Of course, no two tests are perfectly correlated but they appear to be in the same ball park.

Anyhow, your DS is clearly strong in perceptual reasoning and very strong in matrix reasoning so he will likely excel in higher level math down the road and likely included in GT math classes since many districts don't require a hard 130 IQ cutoff.

Hi Quantum2003,thanks for your reply. It's funny you say that because in the 1st and 2nd grades their grades were almost identical across the board, with DD being slightly ahead on reading and DS being slightly ahead on math. Now, DD does have slightly higher grades (I'm talking 99% compared to DS' 96%), however, her percentiles in MAP tests hae always been up in the 90's and DS's were not. This is apparently what they look at to determine possible eligibility initially.

If MAP scores are the first screen for program eligibility, then it makes sense that they don't include a true cognitive measure; the program may be more of an academically-advanced program than a pure GT program. Obviously still to her credit that your DD qualified for it. Even more to her credit is her exceptionally high motivation rating on the GRS.

Oh really? Well now that's interesting. I'd love to get her into a pure GT program, I think it would really benefit her. However, what would it mean for our family? Would we have to move to accommodate? We're in Georgia right now. I'm new to all this GT stuff, there was no such thing in the UK when DH and I were growing up!

I think you'll find that there are very few pure GT programs, as, by definition, they would be quite exclusive, which is counter to our prevailing educational culture in North America.

Nearly all gifted programmes are actually "high across the board achiever programmes".

Thanks puffin and aeh, that makes sense. I guess if you make a program "too" exclusive, there wouldn't be enough students to warrant sustaining it!

All the districts aroud here seem to look for cogAT 98th percentile or above and MAP (at least one subtest, either reading or math) 98th percentile or above with a high score in the other subject as well. DD was 99.9th percentile for IQ, 99th Math and 97th Reading, we tried the self-contained gifted program and it was obviously something that catered to highly motivated kids who are very independent and like churning out papers, worksheets, projects, etc. What DD needed was more advanced content not more work. But she is 2e which played a big role. Biggest lesson learned is that gifted programs do not necessarily work for all gifted kids. She is still Id'ed as gifed in a new school and is placed in a gifted house of some sort for middle school (which also includes high achievers that are not id'ed as gifted) and she is subject accelerated for math. If that doesn't work either we may need to take her out of g/t and have her unidentified (hoping not, though, since the school seems well versed in 2e).

Hi blackcat, thanks for the insight! Your DD is obviously gifted and it would be a shame to have her unidentified as such. If only all schools catered for all types of gifted children.

My DD IS the kind who is highly motivated, likes to do projects for fun, etc., HOWEVER, it has to be something that interests her. I'm still surprised that her scores were so low as her usual scores are up there.

I don't if she is so much intelligently gifted as just extremely motivated and curious. Is there even a difference? I don't know. I find this all very confusing!

There can be a big difference, but there's no magical binary distribution between the two. Some kids are both, some are only one or the other. Lots blend in the middle. Really bright, motivated kids tend to be really good at doing the normal stuff of school and life. They are well positioned for success in whatever they set out to do. Really gifted kids tend to be divergent thinkers, which can sometimes make them really bad at doing the normal stuff of life.

But there's also no clear line between "gifted" and "not gifted", just tendencies that seem to increase the farther you get from the norm. From what I can see, the further you move away from typical and towards HG or PG, the more likely you are to see those greater extremes of divergent thinking - and, often, the lousier the kid will do in a regular classroom.

A favorite quote of mine, somewhat paraphrased for thinking about what differentiates gifted vs bright/ high achieving, is "Talent hits a target no one else can hit. Gifted hits a target no one else can see."

Teachers do not like children who are aiming at targets they cannot see.

I see that divergent thinking a lot in my younger kid (age 9), who tested lower on the WISC (still gifted though) but I think he is actually MORE gifted than my other child. He also has a lot of unconventional views and thinks about things that most kids his age would not. For instance when I asked him if they say the Pledge in school and what he thinks of it, he started rambling on about totalitarianism, something abbut Hitler, it's a waste of time, could be learning instead, God has nothing to do with America so God shouldn't be in the pledge, etc etc etc. My other child doesn't even think about things like that. I think he is pretty good about keeping his mouth shut in school, but they don't seem to esp. appreciate critical or divergenet thinking in elementary school.

blackcat, I think I would get on great with your kid! My DD does tend to think unconventionally, go against the grain, couldn't give a hoot what other people think BUT she gets on great at school for the most part and is really popular. So she's either just really bright and motivated OR she's really good at faking it!! Only one way to find out, get her tested...