Okay, so I just applied my DS (who behaves like a gifted child to me), but I had my daughter tested at the same time and she has similar scores (which is why I call her my sleeper). She seems like a NT child, hit all her developmental milestones at the normal times, etc. but her scores put her in the HG+ world.

So I'm looking at the questions they ask, and I can't think of examples that show that she is gifted.

Should I even bother submitting her? I figured I should, since she has the scores. But she doesn't seem like what I think of as gifted, and I don't know how to answer those questions… both my kids are probably 2e though. I just don't want to shortchange her.

Yes, I think you should still submit for her.

Yes. You definitely should.

My DS had similar scores to your DD, and I've had similar reservations about submitting a DYS application. To us, he presents as gifted but not HG(+), so it's really hard for us to know what exactly about him is "2 or more grade levels above."

I think we're going to go through with it. I just need to get up the nerve to ask his teacher (at a gifted school) to fill out the nominator form.

If nothing else, think about the message you would send by not submitting for her.

When I applied to go to college, I desperately wanted to attend MIT, and I got in, but I ended up enrolling at UC Berkeley because we couldn't afford the tuition. The next year, my parents very strongly encouraged my brother to apply to Stanford. I felt like they thought that it was more important for their boy to go to a private college, and UCB was good enough for me, since I was only a girl. I understand that that wasn't their real motivation, but it was still a very difficult message for me. (And I did end up transferring to MIT the same year he went to Stanford.)

Please don't make your daughter think that she doesn't need to be a DYS, because she's just a girl.

Also, as a practical matter, I can tell you that it's a pain in the butt to have one child be a DYS and the other not. DS isn't asking too many questions yet about why DD gets to do stuff that he's not invited to, but I can see it coming.

ElizabethN-

My dad went to MIT I had her tested for that very reason, because I knew that they were likely close in IQ anyway. And it really has nothing to do with her being a girl, if it were my DS that was the sleeper then it would be the same. I just can't think of examples to give them. Maybe if I sleep on it (get it ha ha) I will be able to remember some things. Her real talent is making dresses out of anything - she's super creative with that and she's only 8. So that tells me she has some understanding of materials and structure….

Hey, that's a real talent. Does she sew, or just drape them?

She just drapes, but seriously, she takes a piece of cloth, cuts a few holes in it wraps it in a particular way and it could be something you would see in a high end store or on a runway… that's where she is unmistakably talented.

When she was three she made a dress out of the stuffing from a pillow. She figured out how to wear it, I laughed at the time but now I look back and go hmmmm

I can see it now, DYS she doesn't act gifted, but if you give her a piece of material that girl can drape…

One of my guilty little secrets is that while I tease my DW for watching it, I enjoy watching Project Runway.

Sometimes the catty drama is way OTT but the sheer inventiveness of these people is staggering. I definitely think that high creativity is a proxy for high intelligence.

One of my DD's friends is an incredibly creative girl - supremely talented at Art - can make great masks with the barest of materials, sculpt and draw. She is also talented at Maths.

Her parents are our friends too but it sad to see that they do not appear to see how intelligent their daughter actually is. She has no academic encouragement from them really because as children they had such terrible fun-starved childhoods that they do not enthuse her to study at all.

I actually think that this girl could give my DD a run for her money were she given the chance...

So you've met my in-laws, I see.

I hate when parents can't get out of their own way to raise their child… I pray every day that I have the strength to see clearly and not propagate the negative patterns that may have been passed down to me.

and Aquinas you crack me up

LOL. My DD did this too--it's kind of amazing!

When I taught gifted 5th grade students--we had a talent demonstration as a project, and one exceptionally gifted girl (who wanted to be a fashion designer), brought in her fabric, notions, stapler, and tape-- and demonstrated her draping talents.

Maybe it's not DYS material (hee) but it's pretty resourceful and creative, yes?

I have two DYS with very, very similar scores (1-3 points apart in FSIQ/GAI; different areas of strength, though, and completely different personalities!) and I am very glad that I also decided to have them both tested. I agree with the comment that it is simply much easier to have both in the program. We have attended some gatherings - some a distance away - which would have created all sorts of logistical nightmares if only one was a DYS. Also, DS7 is very quiet at school, so having him become a DYS gives us some resources for him so we can help him develop in his own way (as opposed to DD, who is NOT quiet, so much harder to miss).

For these reasons, yes - do apply.

Some gifted kids (like my DS5) can "pass" as NT and can easily slip through the cracks unchallenged. It is important to realize that giftedness can present in many ways - including paradoxically, by not presenting itself.

I wonder, too, if you've ever spent any time around more typical kids. With my DD, I was worried sick she wouldn't test gifted, only because it would have hurt her feelings because of her older brothers. She did not seem as obviously gifted as my boys. One, she had a speech impediment and two, her vocabulary has never been as advanced (ironically--now I realize DS vocab was really more a function of his 2e than his IQ).

Other people would always say--WHOA, your dd is something else. And I'd be like, she is?

She had the same GAI as her obviously/stereotypically gifted brothers, turned out. I think it is harder to identify when you have a certain model in mind, maybe. I used to think other children might actually have something wrong (delays) when they were really bright children, because of my limited exposure to "normal."

I do think I have a limited exposure to normal. Both my kids are at an extremely high performing school, with kids that are the offspring of doctors, lawyers and scientists- and the PTA is made up of quite a few parents who tested gifted when they were kids and that *surprise* have gifted children of their own.

I grew up in the Silicon Valley, and everyone around us were working in science in some way. I don't think everyone I knew was gifted, but they were certainly intelligent.

So yes, I probably have no idea what NT looks like. But I do know that neither of my children *perform* at the level they should be academically according to IQ so I worry that there is something wrong….I was an underachiever so I'm obviously projecting that fear into this situation.

I'm not pressuring them, I just keep looking for things to motivate them into action…

LAF, my daughter had almost the exact same WISC profile. Like, scary similar. And interestingly, she doesn't always "look" that gifted to me either. She is older and has had more time to perform at things, and when I look at all the evidence, (SAT scores, writing competition wins, Explore scores, etc.) I have to admit that the tester probably didn't make a mistake.

I think there is something about verbal giftedness that maybe presents differently than a mathier kid. She is dreamy and intense and often unhappy. She thinks and feels a ton about relationships with friends, with us. I am a psychoanalyst and she is fascinated by what I do, always wants to listen in to juicy adult conversations that have to do with conflict, strong emotions. My favorite moment from the Summit: She was talking to a DYS parent who is a PhD English professor. She was 12. They were discussing a book they had both read. "Did you like it?" he asked. "It was okay... the voice didn't really work for me." (PhD guys stops and thinks for a minute.) "You know, you are right. The voice was problematic."

I'm rambling a bit, but you should definitely apply. My experience with two successful DYS applications -- it is the scores that matter. I don't think they keep you out if you can't tell some story about how they wrote a screenplay at 5. Just go ahead and submit!

gabalyn- you nailed it.. my daughter is dreamy and intense and said to me today "I hate my life." She said this because I had to tell her that her teacher gave me a 2 (below proficient) notice on her.. she was turning in sloppy and careless work.

She is very fixated on relationships and friendships, and is pretty jealous when it comes to her best friend. No real interest in school, other than as a location for her recess liaisons with her friends.

Thank you for your insight re: verbal kids. I do have to remind myself (when I start to think the tester lied) that I was tested and found to be gifted so why would I doubt she would be gifted?

I will apply her, and maybe I will send them a photo of some of her draping

Hah! Sounds really familiar.

We always figured that, at most, DS7 was a typical G/MG kid. When we learned that he tested HG and expressed our surprise about this to close friends, the response was always, "Oh, c'mon! How can you be surprised? It's obvious how advanced he is."

From what I've gathered by hanging out on this forum and reflecting upon the traits of DS, I've learned that the "middle range" of high MG/low HG can be really subtle to pick up on. It doesn't usually help that, when you read literature about distinguishing HG/EG/PG kids from G/MG kids, most of the examples used contrast a G/MG kid with a EG/PG kid (i.e., one whose profundity of giftedness is undeniably obvious). So there is a tendency to say, "Oh, my kid fits into the G/MG characteristics better" and think that you kid is more typically gifted, even though what you have is a kid somewhere in between. Ironically, there are probably more of us on this board with kids at this in-between level than there are in the higher EG/PG range. And, of course, every kid is different and uses their intelligence in different ways, so it's even harder to put a finger on. But I truly believe that the differences are there.

The profundity of our DS's giftedness is not undeniably obvious. He reached some of those developmental milestones slightly (but not drastically) early, he has always talked well for his age but not "like a professor," and he presents as smart but not "scary smart." He has started reading fluently around the time when many gifted kids do, but not at age 2

But, from what I've seen, I can tell you that his intelligence often sets him apart from other gifted kids his age.

I remember last year watching a group of gifted kids respond to the question, "If you were snow and could talk, what would you say?" Most responses were along the lines of, "Brrr! I'm freezing!" or "It's really cold outside!" His response, however, was, "Do with me what you will" (meaning he was the snow talking to a kid and expressing a desire to be shaped into something). Or sometimes he'll just construct the most amazing, thought-provoking ideas about science when it's just the two of us talking. Or he'll use his advanced abilities in social intelligence to completely blend into almost any social situation (I've seen him hang out with toddlers, kids his own age, kids slightly older, teenagers, adults... all effortlessly and fearlessly.)

So, the long and short of it is that I think it's very, very easy for many of us to underestimate our children's intelligence and attempt to justify to ourselves that the scores must be incorrect. I'm still doing this (though I'm learning to stop).