I'm going to try to make this concise but as parents i'm sure you know how difficult it can be sometimes to sum your child up. My son started reading when he was two, I just realized one day he could read. it was not small cat, dog, cup stuff but really reading. not just that but he had basically learned all of the kindergarten intake info, shapes, colors, numbers, value etc. more time went on and he continued to absorb info like a sponge he taught himself to count in Japanese to 100 after recognizing that there numerical system follows a pattern. he went on to learn how to read numbers in several languages including Kanji.

he also has some uneven development however. on the flip side of all of this is some social and emotional immaturities and he hasn't been very interested in conversational language and is somewhat behind in that area. we had him test last year for admittance to kindergarten at school near our home for gifted kids. he was not accepted. i don't understand why he's able to do the things he can do if he isn't gifted?

Over the winter his hand writing sort of showed up one day, he was able to write numbers and letters before but his hand writing became more neat and had a better relationship in size to a piece of paper. from that came an explosion in math. today (kindergarten year) we get all of our working material from 5th and 6th grade math sources.

so, his school puts him at "at least" a 2nd grade reading level but his pre-school teacher tells me it might be higher because he reads to learn. His math is on par with probably a 5th grader even though we do some work that is considered 6th. now what? what do i do for 1st grade? we already had him test at the charter school for gifted kids thats near us and they said according to his test last year, he's not gifted. we contacted a school about an hour from us to see what they would possibly have to offer a kid like him but they immediately said - step on is IQ test. uh? it didn't do so well with testing last time, can't they just watch him do some stuff and see for himself that he's well advanced? i think art of the problem is the conversational speech. as skilled as he is in his areas he's not a verbal acrobat and they keep wanted to test him verbally. by next year i don't know where he'll be in Mathematics and language arts but i know he won't be anywhere near 1st grade - on the other hand he's much more comfortable socially and emotionally with that younger group and i don't think bumping him up a grade is the answer. he needs both, he needs to be young AND he need appropriate academics. what do i do next???

If you can afford it, you need an IQ test by a psych who will take time to get to know your kid and make him comfortable. I was lucky that the person I was referred to saw right away that my son is very shy and uncomfortable with strangers, so she decided she had to get to know him and do all the testing herself. She usually has grad students do some of the testing, but he wouldn't have done nearly as well with a stranger each time.

so, although the testing last year says he is not gifted - he should still be tested again? i keep thinking why is he able to do all of this if he isn't gifted. Id read elsewhere that some kids "even out" as they get older so at the time i thought maybe thats what this was and thats why the test said he's to gifted - but if anything its going in the opposite direction.

Hi Londage,

I agree with Marcy. I think you may need to get a psycho educational evaluation. We are just starting the process of getting one done and are currently filling out forms detailing our child's background/interests, strengths and weaknesses. The assessment covers many areas (there are other members on the board who are more familiar with the ins and outs of the tests) but the evaluation will identify your son's strengths and weaknesses and provide insight into where he's at with conversational language. They will provide you with a report when the evaluation is complete. I'm not an expert in the area of IQ tests but where we live, in Canada, we have to have the psychoeducational eval to move forward in the gifted program at our public school board.

A lot of people recommend looking on the Hoagies website for help finding a psychologist that specializes in gifted kids. You might want to start with that site for more info.

From your descriptions your son does sound extremely bright. Do you know what kind of test the charter school administered? What type of score/result they were looking for? Did they offer you any feedback?

"He needs to be young and he needs appropriate academics." I get this sentence. My daughter is the same. She's 6 and reading at a grade 5 level and doing math well beyond her grade one class but likes to play house and pretend to be a dog.

Good luck!

I didn't even know there was more than one kind of test. all i know from the school was that the first day he went in, he was with a group. it was supposed to be a two hour thing and they brought him back out 5 minutes later because he refused to test with the group. we brought him back for a one on one with a grad student and that lasted longer, he was with her for about 45 minutes and then we got a letter in the mail that said basically test one, didn't test, test two didn't qualify. all i remember is that two of the three parts were to do with speech and language and those just aren't his areas especially with someone he's never met before. i knew from the start this style of testing (esp. the part with the group) was a nonstarter. i tried to tell the school that but they just said - this is what we do. after we got the results i thought, uh so he's not gifted? i was confused and thought that that was the final word on it until the math started. we just registered him for kindergarten and thought ok well if he's not gifted he'll probably just be one of those that evens out. Now were right back where we were last year of scratching our heads and not really understanding whats happening. i saw on some other post that the psychiatrist testing is like $500 =\ thats a lot of money for us. i want to do it if he needs it but i don't understand why the school thats for gifted kids would say he's not gifted if he actually might be. should i call them? it was last year but maybe they could at least explain whats going on with him if its not a giftedness.

It is possible that he is "twice exceptional" and there is a disabiltiy that is depressing his IQ scores in certain areas. DS was tested at age 3 and then at age 6 (not for giftedness, but because of other concerns). He wasn't exactly cooperative at age 3 but his IQ was in the average range. At that time, his language was somewhat delayed. He could whip together a puzzle, easily, but was not doing much in terms of conversations. I think his verbal IQ was in the low average range and non-verbal was above average (so it averaged out to average). Fast forward 3 years and he was tested again. His scores had shifted way up and his IQ was around 130. At around age 4-5 he made a lot of gains with speech, and that was reflected in the higher scores. DS has developmental coordination disorder/developmental dyspraxia which caused the delays with his speech. Your DS could have something similar going on. Autism Spectrum Disorder also can cause problems with conversational speech. I think it would be a good idea to take him to a neuropsychologist and find out areas of strengths and weakness, and whether there is a disability involved, or simply a delay. We had testing done at a major university with both kids.

Do you have a copy of the test results from the charter school? If not, I'd get a copy of that if at all possible, to include with your records. Even though he didn't test as gifted, the reason you want a copy is to know what specific test was administered, and how he scored. There can be many nuances to testing - most schools don't actually administer IQ tests for admissions, but instead either a type of test which is categorized as "learned ability" or an achievement test. IQ tests are referred to as "innate ability" tests - they assess skills/abilities you are essentially "born with", whereas "learned ability" tests depend to a certain extent on the environment a student has been in and learning they've been exposed to. One example of a "learned ability" test is the CogAT (I doubt that's the test your ds had for kindergarten admissions, but just using it here as an example). One of the questions my ds was asked on the CogAT referred to determining what a metric measure was based on a different metric measure. At the time he took the test, ds hadn't learned anything at all about metric measurement. He made a very intelligent guess about what the answer was using logic and reason, but it was the wrong answer. A less "higher ability" kid might not have had the ability to use logic and reasoning in the same way, and might have guessed at the answer and gotten it correct. Again, this is just one example question on one example test, but the idea in general is, an innate ability test should, in theory, give you the better estimate of your child's true intellectual ability.

The other thing to think through - you've mentioned your ds isn't very interested in conversational language. When a child is "interviewed" for school admissions (granted, young children aren't directly interviewed, but if there was a situation where he was in the room with a person from the school etc)... some people will make inferences from conversation re whether or not a child is gifted. Not talking or talking too much or talking too deep or talking about fluff - none of that is really a reliable indicator of true giftedness (outside of conversations that reveal depth of thought). All children are different and children also behave differently in different situations. So - it's perhaps possible that there was an element of the previous school assuming your ds wasn't gifted based on conversation with him.

The third thing you need to do is gather evidence of the work he's capable of doing - math problems, lists of what he's reading, whatever you can briefly use to show someone else his current academic levels.

If you haven't already done so, I'd research all the options available for education in your area - and that includes schools that aren't necessarily labelled "gifted". Oftentimes the best solution is a school that is willing to work with you and your ds, irrespective of whether or not the school is public/private/charter and whether or not it is specifically set up as a school for gifted students.

Last thing, I'll second/third the recommendations for IQ testing. You might be able to get the testing through your public school - but again, I'd check first to be sure what type of test they administer. If you can't get a full IQ test through the school district, then I'd seek one out privately. If you have to go private for an eval, find out what types of tests your school district and/or other schools you are interested in will accept for admissions to gifted programming.

And get ready to advocate. Chances are you'll be doing a bit of that, particularly in the early elementary years. One thing that kept me going a long time ago was running into a young person working at the kids' area in the health club I was working out at. When I went in to pick up my children I had a book about gifted kids in my hand, and she asked me why I was reading it. I mentioned something to her, and she responded to keep on advocating and stand up for my kids at school - she said she'd been a gifted kid herself and that the school she was in was not providing what she needed, but her mom fought fought fought for her to get an appropriate education - and that not only helped get her what she needed at school, it also gave her a tremendous respect for her mom seeing her advocate for her to other adults who were in a position of power. It can be tough in the trenches, but definitely worth hanging in there!

Best wishes,

polarbear

I'm sorry, whats a DS?

i didn't think so, (about the twice exceptional part). the thing is he's been a bit behind in language since he was little but he was always developing and when i ask his doctor about it when he was really little (like 2) his doctor said he has a lot of vocabulary it's just that most of it doesn't contribute to a conversation. like he knew a million identifiers - its hard to have a conversation with only identifiers. his doctor at the time said kids don't get points for these words but not those words, as long as he's talking and continuing to develop that there wasn't anything to worry about. then all the crazy smart stuff came up - the reading and what not and we thought OH yea, no there isn't anything to worry about cuz look he's cocoo smart. PLUS he has two older cousins who both lagged in the same way (speech) and by like 2nd - 3rd grade everything evened out. one of them was even miss diagnosed as an autistic and by 3rd they said oh no whoopsie he's not autism he just needed a minute. Both of those cousins are super smart kids, probably somewhat gifted. this 2E thing is new to me, i only just heard of it for the first time about 6 months ago. honestly i feel like i'm a little lost with all this. i'm reading all these posts on here and it seems like everyone is so well educated in this and i'm wondering if there are things i was supposed to have been doing all this time that i didn't even know about. he's practically had to hand walk me thru all of this - everything he's learned he pushes for, i feel like i'm constantly holding him back because i think oh you can't do this you're too little and then he figures it out and is doing it on hi own.

i do not have the test results and no i have no clue what kind of test it was =\ didn't even know there were different kinds. i know the first day he went it was in a group and he flatly refused to test and the second day was one on one with a grad student that lasted about 45 mins - thats all i know. i did speak to them prior to, to tell them i didn't think group testing was the best situation for seeing our son (basically at all but) at his best. ill call them but it was last November so i don't know if they keep test information regarding a child who didn't qualify. this is all very confusing right now. we knew he was smart when he was little but they Math that has come out of him in the last 8 months has been astonishing and now i feel like i'm way behind the 8 ball. i just didn't know A. how much he was going to need a truly specialized program and B. that it was this hard to do.

i'm a little nervous about the IQ test, i don't really know what that involves. i guess that'll be my step one, research IQ administrators in the area and what the difference is in the different tests. if i see a test that i think fits him best, can I request that test be given to him?

ill call the charter school too, thank you for responding - its such a relief to have some people who've been there to talk to. BTW whats DS?

If you are in Colorado, you might consider contacting the Gifted Development Center near Denver.

PG Retreat is another organization that may have resources near you.

hi thank you, i have heard of Gifted Development Center and i just last week sent them a packet of his work (for lack of a better approach, i wasn't sure how to initiate the conversation), but i have not heard of PG so i will look that up.

hopefully everyone who has taken time out of their day to reply to my post is also seeing my replies. I've replied to each person but it isn't showing up in the feed and I'd hate for people to think that after taking time to reply to me that i was in turn ignoring their generosity. THANK YOU to each person who has replied, every reply has been helpful and insightful and greatly appreciated.

I'm going to repeat a part of a response i made earlier to Blackcat because i'm not sure if all of my replies are being seen, so i apologise in advance if your getting this twice Backcat.

i did not think that he was twice exceptional for a few reason 1. he has always been somewhat delayed in speech, since he was little, but he always did continue to develop and when we'd asked his pediatrician about it he said that our sone has a big vocabulary its just not the kids of word that contribute to conversation (he was probably two at the time. the dr. said that kids don't get points for some words and not for other and that our son has tons of identifiers. its hard to have a conversation with only identifiers though. 2. our son also has had two older cousins that followed a similar developmental pattern i.e. late speech development but early signs of giftedness. one of whom was misdiagnosed as an autistic and in third grade they said he'd "grown out of it" his other cousin was not diagnosed with anything but eventually also evened out with her peers in communication. both kids are highly intelligent and probably gifted but attend regular school. 3. we'd never heard of twice exceptional, we thought yes, his speech is delayed but holly molly look how smart he is... he'll eventually catch up in the areas he's lagging in - he's just "developing unevenly" which was another thing we were being told.

so now I don't know, i'm wondering. my concern is that my choices are to bring him to a tester that specializes in 2E so that he gets the kid of testing that is appropriate for a potentially gifted child with speech delays and possibly by doing so shine a spot light on his idiosyncrasies and basically ask for a diagnosis that i don't think is really fitting at this time, based on his cousins developing out of this stage. OR taking him to a tester that doesn't specialize in 2Es and run the risk of him being tested with out the consideration of his speech delay. Any advice on those two concerns??

before this post id not even considered having him tested again, i didn't even know there were different kinds of tests. i thought that the school we took him to to be tested last year was the end of the conversation and that, the tests said he's not gifted. i was just left wondering - well if he's not gifted why is he doing all of these things? and it was very confusing. so thanks again to everyone who's helping shed some light on this for us.

We've had at least a couple of members whose DS is mathematically talented/gifted and their overall IQ did not match their math achievement.

I also read a blog post by a mother of a talented young violinist who was rather puzzled by the lower-than-expecred results.

My speculation is that some children can be very talented in one or two areas but not necessarily perform well on standard IQ tests. IMO, that doesn't make them less gifted or talented in their areas of strength.

thanks Mana,
I've read else where that the majority of gifted kids are linguistically gifted and that mathematically gifted kids are not as common. do you think thats part of it? like maybe the tests are geared toward to majority? to be fare when he tested last year he'd never even done small math on paper - he's gone from point A to 5th grade math all in about 9 months. but if he is gifted now shouldn't he have been gifted then? and if he's doing fifth grade math in kindergarten doesn't he have to be gifted? its confusing.

If he is a kindergartener eagerly reading at or above a second grade level and doing math at or above a 5th grade level, it is highly likely he is gifted. Send a letter requesting in writing all testing results from that charter school.

It is possible he had an off day or didn't connect with the tester. It is possible he has 2E issues. It is possible that his cousins also had 2E issues and developed a way to compensate for them by 3rd grade.

Is English his 1st language? That may have an impact too.

If they administered an oral test that may not have accurately assessed his full potential given that you say he can read fluently.

I understand you have been working with a speech pathologist. Has his hearing been checked by a professional?

Also, are you sure he was not admitted due to test results?

Lack of admission could be for any number of reasons... Not enough openings for all eligible candidates, etc.

All our charters are lottery based (if there are requirements...not all have requirements other than residing in district... first you meet requirements then enter lottery pool).

Our arts magnet was completely audition based (so selection was based on a rubric that included teacher recs, previous grades, attendance, essay written while you waited for your audition, audition, and interview).

What exactly is he doing now in terms of speech? Does he answer questions like "Tell me something you enjoyed aobut school today?" Does he ask you questions? How many words can he put together into a sentence? Is his speech mostly grammatically correct? You can look up developmental milestones on this site: http://www.pbs.org/parents/child-development/

You can click on language and his age.

I think it is common for many total normal kids to be late talkers, but from what I have read, if a child is still having difficulties in kindergarten, it's less likely they are just going to "grow out of it."


DS had the huge gap between non-verbal ability and verbal ability at age 3, and there was still a gap on the most recent testing (cogat) but he was in the superior range (I think) in both verbal and non-verbal. The bigger the discrepancy, the more likely there is a 2e issue. I do think that people can be mathematically gifted and not gifted (or as gifted) in other areas, but it's a matter of degree whether it's normal or not. FWIW our district now requires kids to be gifted in both verbal and mathematical ability (they don't seem to care about non-verbal), because those are the kids that do the best in school gifted programs (doesn't mean they are more gifted, they are just more likely to be the high achievers in terms of school).

SAHM - no i'm not entirely sure he wasn't admitted because of scores but it think so. they didn't say he wasn't going to be admitted, they said - he doesn't qualify to attend. English is his first language and the only language spoken in our house but since he was little he's been extremely interested in other languages. he'll ask to watch shows in other languages and learned to count i several languages and learned to read and write in i think 5 languages for numbers. it was for sure an oral test, but i do believe he would not have voluntarily engaged with the test giver. a writer test would have been more his speed. unfortunately at the time i didn't even know there were different kinds of test, i'm only just learning that now. His hearing was checked when he was an infant (like 2 days old) does that kind of thing need to be checked again as he gets older?

Blackcat,
i'm gonna check out that link for milestones but the first few questions you asked - he speaks in full sentences and asks and answers questions. he's less likely to engage though and isn't like to initiate very much conversation and he sounds babyish when he talks. its hard to explain. i'm looking into a possibility of getting him evaluated to see of there is a 2E component - now, after reading through all your guy's responses. I worry though that taking him in for an email is ASKING for a diagnosis. honestly, really didn't think so but now I'm wondering.

i want to understand what you were saying about the kids who are mathematically gifted though and i don't know if i do yet. so, he might be advanced in math but not be a gifted child? if theres a difference i thinks it important information for us to have because we don't want to spin our wheel headed in the wrong direction. to our way of thinking - because he's doing 5 and some 6th grade math - he MUST be gifted, but if that isn't the case or at least potentially not the case then it would kind of clear some things up for us. we've been very confused about what he can do Vs. how the tested he did last year went.

there is other components though - the reading, and language arts (on paper at least) he's advanced. reading about 2nd grade or maybe somewhere between 2nd and 3rd (he can read to learn and read instructions and follow them correctly) - hand writing and language arts, he works from 1st grade material but we do some stuff that i think qualifies as second grade. like alphabetizing, nouns, verbs stuff like that.

its an odd juxtaposition between who you see when you first meet him and what he's able to do with books, paper and pencils.

heres some examples of the math he'll do this week.
adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing fractions with borrowing and mixed numbers
subtraction with multiple borrows like...
4000
-3892
3 digit x 3 digit multiplication with carrying
long division with decimals
he does big multiplication his head like 8 x 320, you can ask him how many seconds are in 12 minutes or something like that.
he does minor pre pre algebra like 5y-3=12 y=
area and perimeter
order of operation
roman numeral into the tens of thousands
prime vs composites and prime factors (loves prime numbers, don't ask me why, i don't get them at all)

bunches and bunches, i could keep listing stuff but i think thats probably a good grouping of examples. He's extremely fixated on math and numbers and value, it takes on a very wide and also in-depth scope.

Cookie,
there are some schools like that here too that do a lottery, but i didn't even apply to the, i only applied to this one school cuz it was in the same town were in and we were "zoned" for it (sort of, maybe in-area is the right term). he had to qualify and then they only had so many spots. they said that a committee decides who gets the spots if more kids qualify than the number of spots they had.

Hard situation. Based on your son's level of advancements, I wouldn't rule out that he is not gifted according to a test which doesn't seem like a proper IQ test done by psych. Having a real IQ test (I know it's really expensive) will help you a lot on going to different schools which you think a good fit for your son.

Levia,

yeah =\ i just looked into it over the weekend and it loos like a base price is like $500 - a lot of money for us. it's kind of sounding like though that kids who are gifted at math are sometimes not considered an overall gifted child. i'm wondering what that means when it comes to an IQ test. does it mean he may never score in the ranges that would qualify him for a specialized program? seems unfortunate if thats the case because he could really benefit from having some people in his life who play-in-math like he does.

i'm still looking into the psych eval too though, i definitely get the significants of having it done by a psych rather than 45 mins with a grad student now more than i did before posting this topic. not to imply she did a bad job but he might just need a different approach. i also don't think at the time he had any concept of why it might be important to answer the questions to the best of his ability, or even answer them at all.

Your DS sounds mathematically talented to me but that does not necessarily mean he'd score above 130 (or whatever the cutoff number may be) on standard IQ measures. I assume he was very young when he was tested. If he didn't feel comfortable being in a room with a stranger, he might not done as well as he could have.

Did the school not offer you an option to go over his assessment results in person? If they didn't, maybe you still could ask for a meeting because you have some concerns.

A small school that is willing to offer individualized instruction might be a better fit for your DS than a sought-after gifted school that has a long waiting list. Some elementary school teachers, including those who teach at gifted schools, may not feel comfortable teaching math beyond 5th grade level. My first choice for my number-obsessed child was to send her to a public charter school where she would have had an access to their high school faculty even as an elementary school student. If your state offers a similar setting, I'd certainly look into it.

I don't want to be a wet blanket but my DD goes to a gifted school but I don't think she's found anyone who wants to play math with her. Maybe this would change as they get older but thus far, her kindergarten class is doing standard math activities that she could have done when she was a year old.

We are starting to after-school so much that we're basically homeschooling her and her time at school is her downtime.

Mana -
got it, yea - that makes sense about the testing. i don't know whats still available from the school cuz it was last year but i can at least give them a call a shoot off an email. thats a bummer about the GT school though for your DD, if we get him tested again and he doesn't score high enough to qualify for a specialized program i'm thinking of just trying to get him a specialized math program, maybe that will end up being a better fit.

i'm looking at the one from Stanford, EPGY i think it's called or maybe the one from Sylvan, Edge. are you familiar with either of those?

We haven't tried either since based on reviews around here, we opted for Singapore Math and Beast Academy. Just in case DD ever has to go show competency on Common Core Math at some point in her life, I am making her do Singapore CC edition through 5th grade. She doesn't hate it but she prefers Beast Academy and in a year or so, we probably can start of AoPS.

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com

You can see if your DS is ready to start:

http://data.artofproblemsolving.com//products/diagnostics/prealgebra-pretest.pdf

OH thats what AoPS is! i saw that referenced elsewhere and didn't know what it was. thanks!

i just looked at the pre- test, does he need to be able to do all of the math in his head or can he write out the equations, do you know?

I don't think mental math is expected. I'd think that they'd note it otherwise since they do discuss their expectations at the beginning of the test.

You don't have to pay for the class, btw. You could simply order their books.

In general, does he hear you well at home? Any issues paying attention in class? He certainly sounds gifted when you describe what he can do with written instructions. Might be a hearing issue. Should be pretty easy to have his ears checked at a well visit at the pediatrician and I'd expect it to be covered by medical insurance.

he's done the things in the test for AoPS and could pass that test but i just looked through the beast stuff and theres stuff in there we have not done. thanks for your help, i think we'll go through some of the assessments for Beast Academy tomorrow so i can see how he does with it. i think we'll probably end up starting somewhere in that progression rather than push forward to AoPS with out having all of that covered. i think he'd like it too.

i looked at an intro to Singapore math a while back and i was LOST, i don't think i could have wrapped my head around it if someone was paying me to. someone else is going to have to teach him that stuff. =)

thanks again!! i know how busy you guys must all be and i appreciate so much everyone taking the time out to offer us some advice, it's made a big difference for us already.

SAHM,

you know i don't know, i do have to say his name sometimes several times before he responds but i assumed he was just tuned out. you're right, it's too easy to get it checked to not just simply do it and find out. thanks.

If your going for a hearing test make sure the test is done by a profesional. My older brother had hearing issues at 4-5 because of many ear infections but no one knew because he was smart enough to fake the screening tests. It wasn't until the doctor finally recommended a full audiology test in a sound proof room where he couldn't see the tester till they figured out he was almost deaf at the time.

bluemagic,
OMGosh good to know yeesh. i'd had his hearing tested as an infant so i thought that we were good to go on that front. my gut tells me it's not his hearing but if being a mom has taught me anything it's that i don't know much.