Just looking to understand her profile better. She took the WISC IV about a year ago, when she was 7. Here are her scores:

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The person who tested her stated that the Perceptual Reasoning subtest was more difficult for her and she gave up easily when an answer did not come immediately. Perfection and anxiety were apparent on the working memory and processing speed subtests.

Verbal comprehension was a strength and perceptual reasoning created some emotional challenges for her. Tester recommended we work with her on puzzles.

My experience of her is that she is very interested in social aspects of school but not academic. She is very creative with regard to arts and crafts.

DD took the OLSAT this year and did not pass. I had purchased a practice OLSAT so I could get her used to the test (my older son did not pass either, so I wanted to make sure it wasn't anxiety due to feeling uncomfortable taking the test.) She did not score highly enough in the practice exercises we took at home either so it wasn't performance anxiety, and I knew it was unlikely she would pass.

Anyway, thanks in advance for any insight.

My DS7 has nearly the same WISC profile (though he hasn't taken the OLSAT).

The only insight I would have is that, if she is anything like my DS, she's not interested in school academics because it is not even close to being challenging enough for her. Do you have any options at all for acceleration? Is the OLSAT the only way to get services for her in your school district?

Do the scores from the OLSAT seem to reflect the same strengths/weaknesses as the scores from the WISC IV?

DD10 has a very similar WISC profile (especially in reasoning; with DD, though, her WMI and PSI are flipped, with WMI as her weakest area). DD has never taken the OLSAT, but has taken the CoGAT. DD's CogAT and WISC scores showed the same relative strengths (VCI/verbal), and her CogAT composite percentile was 99%.

DD's PSI was in the 99th percentile on the WISC (although still much lower than her VCI). DD tends to do very, very well on standardized tests. I have a theory that such tests (especially timed tests) favor kiddos with a high PSI, like DD (perhaps even unfairly so). Also, DD is not much of a perfectionist.

Are you dealing with a school/programs that will only look at the OLSAT? I believe that WISC is typically considered more accurate than OLSAT (individual testing versus group testing), although I know some programs are stubborn about only accepting their own tests. Those WISC scores, if accepted, can get her into just about any G&T program that will take them...

DD's overall happiness with school has gone downhill. She started school as a very enthusiastic student. Now, she seems to mainly enjoy the social aspects and calls school "boring." She is now in G&T and advanced programming at school, but I have come to suspect that she actually needs something that looks more like acceleration to stay engaged.

Okay, here are her OLSAT results.

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By the way, What Do the Tests Tell Us provides a very interesting take on the OLSAT that may be directly related to your DD:

So it's a bit ironic that the OLSAT, which is often used as a gifted screener, may actually act more like a gifted masker in some scenarios.

Both my kid appear to be creatively gifted kids. My son is an amazing artist with a crazy imagination, and my daughter can take a piece of fabric, cut some holes in it, wrap it in a certain way, and make a dress you could put on a runway.

Academically, they look just like the other kids at school. Unless you ask my DS about cryptids, biology, DNA or dangerous animals…

This kid is also obviously creatively gifted, and did not pass the OLSAT http://rafranzdavis.com/braedens-story-our-gifted-child-isnt-gifted-says-olsat/

As a generalization, highly divergent thinkers often do not test well on group standardized testing, especially those with forced-choice formats. Similar inconsistencies between their performance on self-selected activities and school-selected tasks may appear.

Individually-administered cognitive assessments tend to have more open-responses, and, of course, include the clinical judgement of the examiner.

Interesting. I would have pegged my DD as a pretty creative or divergent thinker (full of original-sounding ideas), but when the school gave its "creativity test"...it was the only test she came out as average on (not sure that I think much of the test, honestly). Then again, since she is a good standardized test taker, maybe she isn't a divergent thinker.

In general, privately administered IQ & achievement tests may identify whether an individual is gifted, whereas school-administered tests may indicate whether a child is a match for whatever type of gifted programs/services that school may offer.

Essentially true, although I would divide them into individually-administered and group-administered, rather than private and school. Schools can and do administer individually-administered IQ and achievement test. (My understanding is that that is how aeh got her extensive and valuable experience that she shares with us every day.)

Excellent distinction, thanks for posting that.

I'd definitely vote aeh the forum's MVP: most valuable poster!
Followed closely by Polarbear and Portia.

Loy, that was a generalization; I'm sure there are some highly divergent thinkers who find a way to play the standardized test game (I've mentioned before that my mother re-conceptualized these kinds of tests for us as a game or puzzle in which the objective was not the "right" answer, but to figure out the test designers). And your DD's results on the "creativity test" may or may not reflect her actual level of original thought. After all, if her thinking is divergent enough, the developers of that test may not have been able to capture it on the test! The real test of creativity is IRL, not on formal testing.

Thank you, Elizabeth--yes, that is how I acquired my pool of clinical knowledge.

indigo--

Okay, so aeh do you see anything in her WISC scores that would lead you to believe she might be 2e?

She actually (although having slightly higher scores) behaves less giftedly than her brother… for instance, he reads A LOT. She says she likes reading but prefers graphic novels (like Smile) to actual books, and I know she is at grade level. Unlike other gifted kids I've read about here who started reading in kindergarden, she is still not reading above grade level. In fact, she seems like a regular NT kid, except for sensory stuff, and being able to make fashion…

and I really really appreciate all the expertise you bring to this forum!!!

Well, one does have to wonder about the 53 point standard score difference between VCI and PSI (though I think we may have discussed before the apparent estimate of PSI from a single subtest, rather than the requisite two; Symbol Search is missing). That would be 3.5 SDs. The significance of lower PSI has been discussed extensively on these boards. Given your description of her reading skills, I would suspect that automaticity may be one factor affecting this measure of processing speed.

Not as large, in comparison, but still rather glaring, is the 30 point (2 SD) difference between VCI and PRI. Note especially the 7 scaled score (2.3 SD) difference between the two classification tasks--verbal (Si) and visual (though often verbally-mediated) (PCon).

I also find it curious that Comprehension (obviously exceptionally strong) is noticeably weaker than Si and Vc. As I've mentioned before, there are at least two qualities that set these VCI subtests apart from each other:

1. Si and Vc use one- to two-word stimuli, vs Cp's lengthy and more linguistically-complex questions; this may have differential effects on individuals with receptive language relative weaknesses.
2. Si and Vc can be fully answered with very brief responses, while Cp usually requires more explanation; this may also differentially affect persons with expressive language relative weaknesses.
3. Consequently, Si and Vc probably focus more on verbal reasoning than language development (if that makes sense to you), though knowledge and exposure are, of course, significant factors for both, because of the role of vocabulary. Cp is noticeably affected by language development as distinct from cognition.

You report that DD is reading at grade level--yet her oral vocabulary is not just a little bit, but substantially higher (>4 SDs) than that. At age 8, this is a big red flag for some kind of reading disability. I also suspect that, if this is the case, her VCI will begin to slide downward over the next couple of years, as the source of new vocabulary development for her age peers shifts from oral to written-- and hers doesn't.

Thanks aeh - that is very helpful. I've been a bit concerned about her since I had her tested.. I mainly had her tested because I had my son tested, so I thought I would have her tested as well since she had *something* going on - mainly expressed in the unwillingness to wear any clothing with tags, with seams, etc. and also her reactions to smells.. Since I didn't think she was gifted I was really really surprised at her scores. I mean she didn't even know her alphabet by the time she hit kindergarden (despite having had several years of preschool where they taught the alphabet). The kindergarten teacher even asked me to work with her with flash cards since they were moving on to teaching reading. She has complained a couple of times about her eyes, but usually it seemed related to wanting me to buy her glasses (because she liked how they looked). A visit to an optometrist and her eyesight is perfect (he checks tracking etc.) Other than that she seems pretty normal, however she definitely has separation anxiety like her brother. She states that she likes school, her eyes don't hurt when she reads, and she says she likes reading, but it is boring. However the only books she will read happily are graphic novels, if we buy one for her she will read it a lot.

Oh one more thing… I do read higher a higher than grade level book to her each night. I figured with my DD it will help with vocabulary, and my DS just likes to be read to, so he listens too.

A few thoughts for you re reading:


First thought - not all gifted kids (even EG/PG kids) love to read. My ds has gone through phases - he didn't start reading early, then learned to read in no time at all, but still didn't want to read for fun. The only fiction books we could get him to read before 4th grade were graphic novels, and he wasn't overly fond of them. Then in 4th grade he decided he wanted to see who could read a book faster - himself or his best friend. His best friend (not gifted) was a kid who read all the time. DS started reading the book bf was reading, finished it in less than a day, realized he loved the book, went through that series like lightning, begged for more books etc - and that went on for about 2 years, then he morphed back into his not-needing-to-read for fun mode.

On the flip side, we have a dd who has a challenge that impacted learning to read in a huge way, and it was so very subtle that it took a long time to recognize there was an issue at all. In Kindergarten she was ahead of grade level in reading, in 1st/2nd she was at grade level, but by the end of 2nd I'd started to wonder if something was up because she didn't ever want to read for fun. Her teacher also wondered if there was an issue because there huge difference in verbal comprehension vs reading level/comprehension. Her school reading specialist tested her and found no issues (she wasn't dyslexic and she was reading at grade level). In 3rd grade she slipped below grade level and her then-teacher blamed it on dd not trying. At that point we got outside testing (WJ-III Cog/Achievement) and found that she had a memory challenge associating letters with sounds. A follow up of comprehensive testing by a reading specialist confirmed the same issue.

I'm not suggesting your dd has the same issue - but I recounted that long story (sorry lol!) to lead up to this - it's important to keep in mind that the WISC is a set of specific tests that look at very specific skill sets. The specific challenge that impacts our dd isn't directly assessed on the WISC - our dd took the WISC and WJ-III Achievement tests not long after her reading eval, while still struggling with the letter-sound associations, and nothing at all showed up on the WISC as a concern.

Yikes, gotta go and I'm not quite finished with my thoughts - I'll come back later this afternoon and finish it off

Best wishes,

polarbear

Good to hear that you continue to read higher-level books to her. If she doesn't like to read for pleasure, don't be afraid to read aloud to her, or use audiobooks. If there is some kind of impairment to fluent, independent reading development, this kind of exposure to higher-level text will help her oral language and vocabulary skills continue to move forward while you and/or her school try to figure out her reading.

The anecdotes about letter names and flashcards tend to support the hypothesis that there is some kind of obstacle to developing automaticity in decoding (orthographic mapping is one of its names).

I agree with polarbear...not all EG/PG kiddos love to read. DD is my uber-reader with "different" interests (and has the more extreme and uneven profile). DS7, also with high WISC scores (my DC's FSIQ/GAI scores are 1-3 points apart), but with the more even profile, is a MUCH pickier reader and his interests are more typical. He is also more interested in math. Neither is better - they are just different.

If your DD likes art would she read art and craft books? Would she get into art history? I have had to do more "enabling" to keep DS reading than I ever had to do with DD...she reads anything and everything. Him? Not so much...I've had to always make certain books "happen to be in the house" that catch his interest.

Also, my DC have a friend who is extremely bright who has also had a "stealth" issue with learning. I was amazed knowing this child that ANY issue could be going on - because it was so well hidden. It really highlighted how difficult it can be to pick up a second "e" in a HG+ kiddo.