Maybe someone here can help? My DS got the following scores on the WISC:

VCI 138
PRI 151
WMI 120
PSI 138

He also took the WIAT and his scores were all over the place. Some scores were 30+ points higher than predicted, some were 20 points lower. Any thoughts? I'm meeting with the psych in a few weeks to discuss, but I'm so curious.

Those are great scores! How old is your ds?

What you want to try to do is look at the patterns in the WIAT - were his highs/lows relative to where you'd expect them to be based on the strengths pattern in his WISC scores? You'll also want to look at subtest scores for the WISC if you have them - are they fairly consistent within each group (VCI, PRI, WMI, PSI), or are there large discrepancies on the subtests?

If you want more input from us, it would be helpful to post the WISC subtest scores and the WIAT subtest scores. It would also help to know if your ds is young, and if he was on task or distracted during testing.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Definitely excellent scores!

Happy to help, but as polarbear said, it will be easier to do so with some sense of the specific subtest scores on the WIAT. Some of the variation you are seeing may reflect the design strengths/limitations of the tests used, and/or the age of the child, but it's hard to comment on that without more info.

ps - it would also help to know why he was tested - was it just to test for giftedness or were you concerned about something?

polarbear

Thanks for responding!

My son was tested at 6.5. We were seeing some massive underachievement at school that didn't make sense.

WISC breakdown subtest scaled scores/percentile rank:
block design 17/99
similarities 17/99
digit span 11/63
picture concepts 19/99.9
coding 17/99
vocabulary 18/99.6
letter number sequencing 16/98
matrix reasoning 19/99.9
comprehension 14/91
symbol search 17/99

composite scores:
vCI 138
PRI 151
WMI 120
PSI 138
FSIQ 149
GAI 155

tester said that he got a "speed bonus" on one of the sections

wIAT III standard scores/percentile rank (I don't have subtest scaled scores for these, sorry):

listening comp 132/98
early reading skills 116/86
reading comp 107/68
math prob solving 145/99.9
alphabet writing fluency 106/66
sentence comp 113/81
word reading 113/81
pseudoword decoding 114/82
numerical operations 160/>99.9
oral expression 124/95
oral reading fluency 114/82
spelling 112/79
math fluency addition 115/84
math fluency subtraction 124/95
total achievement 129/97

Any insight would be greatly appreciated!!!

Well, he's solidly in the range for DYS membership, so I'd advise you to apply for that regardless of what else you learn.

He looks like a mathy kid! You may want to see if you have any math circles in your area or other problem-solving activities that he could participate in. What kind of underachievement are you seeing?

I think it's fairly common to see lower fluency scores in gifted kids, particularly when they are as young as your DS.

Great scores, though!

Thanks for posting the subtest scores - aeh can make sense of them, but fwiw it looks like the lower achievement subtest scores correspond to the lower VCI on the WISC. What type of underachievement were you seeing at school? Was he struggling with anything or doing "ok" but progressing slower than you'd expected? Was one subject area a concern or did he seem to be underachieving across all subjects? The WIAT subtests look at very specific skill sets; it helps to know what's going on with real-live academic classwork too

polarbear

His teacher says that he struggles with the following:
sounding out words
reading - he skips words, adds words, mispronounces words, inverts words
writing - very poor output, very poor spelling
math - can't tell the time, can't seem to remember any math facts, counts on his fingers

I am looking at the last page of his WIAT score. It says, "supports SLD hypothesis" and then "yes". Does that mean he has a learning disability? What's your take on this?

First off: statistically, not all of the apparent differences are significant, and even fewer of them are rare (the three-pronged test for discrepancies is statistically significant (usually .05 or .01), rare (< or = 10% base rate), and clinically relevant (aka, IRL)). Of the scores you reported, six meet the first two of those tests (you can tell me whether the third test is plausibly met), two at more than a borderline level:
1. Sentence composition, word reading, oral expression, and spelling tip the 10% base rate standard, which I would consider to be borderline weaknesses.
2. The discrepancies in reading comprehension and numerical operations occur in fewer than 1% of the standardization sample, the former as a relative weakness, and the latter as a relative strength.
3. The remaining subtests are statistically commensurate with his GAI, meaning that this level of difference could have occurred simply by chance.

polarbear's observation is consistent with these findings; the weakest areas are all language-related, and largely consistent with his VCI, with the exception of reading comprehension, which is a mild relative weakness (<10% base rate), even compared to VCI.

I suspect that the numerical operations statistical strength is partly an artifact of the extremely low expectations for calculation skills in beginning first graders. It's certainly on par with his PRI, from a face validity standpoint.

So, bottom line, most of his achievement scores are very much where you would predict them to be, based on his GAI and VCI, with the exception of his reading comprehension, which is significantly lower than either one of them would predict. When you consider that the first three to four years of formal education are predominantly about literacy skills, you can see how this relative weakness could create the kind of tension and frustration that presents as underachievement. Depending on what the role of the psych is, and the philosophy and resource allocation of the local school system, his profile may or may not trigger evaluation for support services (i.e., IEP or GIEP, or both rolled into an IEP). I would want further investigation into the reading comprehension. Is it consistent with his classroom/home/community performance? How were the subtest components of oral reading fluency? Was he slow but extremely accurate, or equivalent in rate and accuracy? Does he struggle with sustained attention (digit span is a flag there), which often affects comprehension of lengthier readings? Just a few questions to begin with.

Thanks so much for your replies. He performs very differently at home vs school. At school, he does rather poorly for him. At home he does much better. But it occurred to me that I think that he does better at home because he always asks me to read to him. I think he struggles when he has to read something silently. I see a huge difference there.

That suggests that he does actually have difficulty with reading comprehension. His listening comprehension is excellent, so when someone reads to him, I would expect him to do quite well. There is no obvious reason to suspect language comprehension as the reason for his reading comprehension relative weakness (since his listening comprehension is so good), which again suggests to me that it is some aspect of reading fluency.

I have a dd who has an issue impacting reading that was really difficult to see for a long time and that didn't show up as obvious on tests like the WISC etc. Like your ds, she had no issues with comprehension when another person read *to* her. Instead it primarily showed up as underachievement in reading progress at school. What helped us tremendously was seeing a reading specialist for an evaluation. The reading specialist had a long list of tests that she ran (I can look them up for you if you're interested). One thing you might try at home is to have your ds read out loud *to* you - that might be really telling. See if he trips up over any words, are they complex words or simple words etc. Does he track ok from line to line, does he resist reading out loud, does he fatigue quickly etc.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Yes, if you get a chance, I would love to know what the list of tests are that your DD had. DS HATES reading aloud. He will literally run out of the room if I suggest it. When he does do it, he trips up over all non sight words. He adds and omits words. He does love to read. But I've noticed that he only reads graphic books and if he reads something with few pictures, he reads it over and over again.

Sounds like your DS has vulnerabilities in phonetic decoding. This didn't show up as a marked weakness on testing, but sometimes it doesn't on the tests that he was administered, in higher-functioning children. Some tests that may be relevant for phonetic decoding and reading fluency, and for reading comprehension include:

CTOPP (or -2) (phonological processing, related to both decoding and fluency)
PAL-2 (phonological processing, reading, writing, including fluency)
TORC-4 (in-depth reading comprehension measure)
from the WJIII/IV: Spelling of Sounds, Word Attack (though Pseudoword Decoding from the WIAT-III is essentially the same, and did not come out as a significant weakness), Writing Fluency
GORT-5 (oral reading: decoding, fluency, and some comprehension)

Best would be to take your existing data to a psych for a comprehensive eval. (You can request one at no additional cost from your public school district, or go through your PCP for a private eval, which may or may not be covered in part or in whole by insurance.)

Thanks aeh!

user1234, you may find this recent thread on dyslexia of interest, to see if anything rings a bell. As aeh notes, your DS's scores so far don't suggest it, but the ability of these children to hide and mask learning challenges is truly amazing. Sometimes you have to dig pretty deep into the specific skill set to find the underlying deficit.

http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....7061/Re_Stealth_dyslexia.html#Post217061

The only score that roughly measures phonics (from this eval) is pseudo word decoding, which while a relative weakness is far from a statistical one. I would remember that before age 8 reading skills are definitely on a continuum and it is really difficult to say if weaknesses will progress into a reading LD or if it is developmental and your DS will catch up. I would recommend a comprehensive vision exam to rule out vision issues. Some children that are far sighted hate to read aloud and once corrected are fine. My DD had average reading achievement and a very high VCI when tested at 7 (October B-day 1st grade). We noticed her squinting and found out she had a severe astigmatism, she starting wearing glasses and scored in the 140's in reading achievement a year later. It might be worth a look. For the record she passed her school screening with flying colors as most children do, even those with vision problems;).