Hi Everyone,

Its been a long time since I posted, but I have always found your advice and suggestions helpful. My DS 11 will be in public HS next school year, and we are looking at advocating for his 9th grade placements this Thursday with the HS counselor. DS was grade skipped and has an additional 2 year math skip. This year he will complete Honors Algebra. We are looking at having him skip Honors Trig (Maybe self study over summer) and go straight to AP Calculus BC. Algebra 2 was not very challenging for him, however for the 1st time he is not getting an A but most likely a high B. This seems to be an issue more with never having to put in effort, and extra time spent with the graphing. He also has never been a 100% correct student, he still makes mistakes mostly due to speed or not paying attention. Rarely is it a comprehension issue. Outside of school he has competed in the AMC 8 and scores in the low 20s and in the AMC 10 and scores just under 100. On the SAT he is all over the place from 580 to 800 on sample tests, depending on focus (Last year he scored 690 on the actual SAT Math). Our goal is to keep him challenged without hurting his future GPA. It's a fine balance. I am looking for any input others may have with this. We are also looking at having him take AP Bio instead of Honors Bio. He is strong in science, however our school district regular progression is that most AP course should not be taken until 11th grade. Most students take AP bio have taken honors bio in 9th. Any input is helpful.

Thank you

Edwin

Trigonometry is an important prerequisite for calculus, so I would not recommend skipping it.

Yeah, Trig is important for Calculus. I felt like Calculus was the easy part of Calculus. It was all the other math that made Calculus challenging.

Agree with the two previous posters. I wouldn't think a high school counselor would agree to a Trig skip if the Honors Algebra isn't an A.

Ap bio needs chemistry first here

We are in a similar situation with DS12, 6th grade. We have not skipped any grades but he is taking Alg II this year with 8th graders.

He was an AIME qualifier this year and also made a 690 on the SAT math section, DS likes math and is pretty disciplined about studying. He self-studied the Art of Problem Solving's Intro series but I read that the online courses were more than just the book and signed him up to retake Intro to # Theory and he really likes it so we will probably also "redo" Counting/Probability and Geometry online also.

As you indicated, his acceleration in math will probably reduce his high school GPA a bit which I am trying to minimize as much as possible. As it stands, he will get credit on his transcripts only and his GPA will not be impacted although they will indicate his actual grade. He is making A's in all of the high school math courses and we initially thought it would be better to wait and take the Honors math courses to maximize his GPA but eventually decided to determine his math progression without thinking of the GPA impact first.

We were not aware of the AMC tests and AIME at the beginning of this school year and he has really enjoyed those and has learned a lot practicing for them. Art of Problem Solving is an amazing resource. Have you read The Calculus Trap, by Richard Rusczyk? It is a worthwhile read and we slowed DS down a bit after reading it. Good luck!!

Echoing the recommendations not to skip Trig.

FWIW our district also requires first year biology and chemistry before AP biology. I would research the AP vs Honors Biology issue - we would have liked to have our ds skip Honors Bio and go straight into AP, but our district insisted that would never work. DS has now been through Honors Bio and there have been pros and cons. Some of the work he had was a repeat of his previous life science classwork, but all was more in depth. He had a *great* teacher and depth of discussion in general was good. Also a pro - for ds, maybe not for other students - he is taking during a year he had some other challenging classes and a lot of homework, so having a slightly less rigorous science than an AP course was helpful. The cons - there was some repetition of things ds has already learned.

I'm not sure exactly what the stepping stone of knowledge is from Chemistry going into AP Biology.

Best wishes,

polarbear

ps - worries over high school GPA can get really complicated depending upon how AP vs honors vs regular courses etc are weighted. For our family, we eventually had to let go and choose to not focus on GPA simply because when it got to the point of coming into play re which courses were taken, that was just too much. I have to believe that the important thing ultimately is that our children have chosen high school course work that challenges them and also interests them, even if they will only get a 4.0 for an A in that class.

Thank you everyone, Note DS is 12, and Dad is old and cant remember his sons age. I will look a little more at the Trig issue. The GPA question was not one of a 4 or a 5, The Trig pre Cal is Honors and the AP Calculus is also a 5. My concern is that he may have a hard fought B vs. an easy A. In regards to the Bio issue is chemistry a part of AP that would make it important for him to take chemistry first? Our goal was AP Chemistry in 10th and AP Physics in 11th. Maybe Chemistry then Bio then Physics?

The old (The new one is Math 1,2,3 all integrated, DS is on the older track) normal progression for the more advanced math students was Honors Geometry, Honors Algebra 2, Honors Trig/pr-calc, AP Calculus. A few 2-5 students are one year ahead of that with AP Stats in 12th. DS is 1 year a head of that group. This would create a situation where his last year or two of math will be outside of the HS.

Here is something I found on the college board AP site

This makes sense, but how far do you carry this logic? Chemistry is an application of the laws of physics, and arguably physics should be a pre-requisite for chemistry. But usually chemistry is taken before physics in American high schools, because the mathematical demands of physics are higher. That is probably the same reason biology is usually taken before chemistry. Since biological systems obey physical laws, one could also argue that physics should be a direct pre-requisite for biology.

Trig is very important for pre-calc. If Trig is a full year course, it probably also includes early calculus and the school's AP Calc class will be adjusted accordingly. AP Calculus BC is a full two semesters of a college calculus class. I would not skip the prep for this class. Can you find out what topics/book the pre-calc class does? Is there an honors class that goes more in depth.

Another thing to consider is what he takes after Calc BC. In my DS's H.S. the only other math options are AP Statistics and AP Computer Science. Would you plan on him taking courses at a local university?

As to skipping to AP Bio.. I personally would not recommend it. My DS's school does not allow it. In my school you not only have to take biology but chemistry (non AP) before you take AP Biology. The AP Biology class expects this and skips or glosses over topics the kids already know. There is a huge amount to cover in that class. I know kids at DS's school that took Calculus as a freshman, but our school doesn't let even the top gifted motivated kids to take AP Science until junior year.

What is your goal with pushing a lot of AP's in 9th grade? Are you looking at having him graduate early? Start taking classes at community college. I would look at his whole H.S. career and how much homework this is going to involve. If you are concerned about GPA, I would NOT try and push him into AP classes in 9th grade.

Good Luck.

This logic doesn't matter so much as the practical details of how the course it taught. If a teacher assumes students have take a high school (probably honors) level of Biology & Chemistry then they teach assuming students already know this material. The material taught in most AP Biology books assume that you know basic H.S. Chemistry & Biology. Where they don't assume you have taken a H.S. Physics class.

I agree about the need for trig before taking calculus. Don't skip that.

I'd also add that high school mathematics courses often lack rigor, though they try to make up for that problem by piling on more homework. Seriously: it looks harder because the kids are always working. My eldest has done math classes in different schools, and the classes in two public schools (one middle, one high) were jokes. The problems in his geometry class were all easy-type problems and the high school pre-calc class was the same. There's also what I call the scattershot problem: the problems in the book aren't cohesive and don't build logically on one another. They just race off in different directions.

In between these two classes, he'd done a rigorous algebra 2 course with me at home (3 chapters of trig), and he had to put in a lot of effort to do well.

Now he's taking second-semester calculus at the local community college. He didn't have any real problems with Calc 1, but he's struggling more with Calc 2. Part of the problem is something that HowlerKarma has mentioned, which is that he's having trouble with the idea of struggling to learn. Those too-easy math classes didn't help, and by this January, Algebra 2 was a distant memory.

My point here is that an AP calculus course may not lack rigor (though it will probably have the scattershot problem), will certainly involve piles of work (including a lot of summer homework), and may present its own set of unexpected difficulties.

Have you considered alternatives? He could do an AoPS or other honestly-rigorous pre-calc class over the summer and then coast through the Honors class in school (which will also involve summer homework, but at least it'll be easy). He could take statistics. If you have time, you could teach him (or learn with him) offbeat but important in-depth topics in mathematics, like Cardano's solution to a depressed cubic (make sure you buy a block of clay), Greek/Egyptian methods, and/or complex numbers. Stuff like that fills in a lot of background and can make the subject come alive in a way that Larson's Umpteenth Edition of Pre-Calculus never will (ever).

Personally, I think it's best to go into calculus with a SOLID background of knowledge rather than approaching it with the idea that you can backfill any potholes as you go. That approach works for lower math, but IMO, not for calculus.

Interesting. Here, many kids who take AP bio take it concurrently with honors chemistry, that seems to be the most common pathway, generally done in Soph year. Our school has also let a few kids skip honors chem and go straight to AP chem, though I think they were advised to self-study some chem over the summer.

On the other hand, there is no flexibility at all with the math track- none at all (probably common core related).

Regarding polarbear's comments about honors bio vs. AP- our daughter also would have preferred to go straight to AP bio, but the school doesn't allow it. For her, honors bio has been underwhelming, and she finds herself researching and doing outside reading to satisfy her questions not addressed or answered in the class. In retrospect, I think it might have been a good plan to have her focus her self-study a bit more, using some AP materials and consider sitting for the AP exam at the end of the year. As it stands now, she is pretty turned-off by her experience and has no plans to take any more bio- hopeful that chemistry is a better fit/offering.

It depends on how it's taught. And I expect taking Chem & AP Bio at the same time would probably work if the teacher is expecting it. My DS16's H.S. it's already an acceleration to take Honors Biology as a 9th graders, non-honors kids take Earth Science & Biology as a sophomore. And new policy students can't double up in science until junior year, and must have two years of H.S. science before taking any AP science courses. So juniors who started in the non-honors sequence may be allowed to take AP Bio & Chemistry concurrently.

My question for the OP is what does your son want to to take? What else does he do? How much time does he want to spend studying vs. other extracurriculars. How does he feel about it. Sounds like he has skipped a grade already, would he be happy going into a class with H.S. seniors? (In my DS's school AP Biology is taken junior or senior year.)

I stand by my recommendation to not bypass Trig, no matter what the GPA situation is. However, re GPA concerns getting a B in a challenging class vs an A in an easy class, this is another thing our ds has run into (different subject). The school district was really pushing one level of the subject for incoming 9th graders, but ds and his classmates had already had classes that put them above the level to begin with. DS' friends went with the district recommendation, but we requested ds go into the higher level class. DS did, subsequently, get a B in the class - but he has actually learned something in the class. His friends who went with the lower level class and got As haven't learned anything new, and have complained of being bored. I'll admit, I had some remorse over encouraging him to take the more difficult class because there is such a huge message given to the kids in high school about the value of aiming for the highest possible GPA - but at the end of the day, I have to think that when a college is looking at a student's transcript, it's going to be more important that a child shows ability and willingness to take risk and learn something than having all As and never stretching. I also had to step back and frame it outside the college angle too - life isn't all about college, and it would be really stressful to spend the next four years focusing on getting the highest possible GPA. But... that's just me

One other thing re GPA though - at this point, at 12 years old, you're still making choices for your ds. Eventually he's going to start to make his own choices. Our ds has opted to *not* take an AP course for one of his core subjects next year - school gives him the choice of taking AP or Honors. In our school district, only AP courses are weighted, so he's automatically lost a full potential grade point for next year's two semesters by not taking the AP course. The thing is - it's in a subject he's not interested in and he's not planning to study in college. It wouldn't gain him anything other than potentially one semester's elective credit in college in the field he plans to study, and he'll have other AP courses that can cover that. Plus, he might *want* to take an elective in college, who knows? Everything within me, the parent, was pushing him to take that AP course over the Honors but at the end of the day, it's got to be his choice. And he chose to focus his study time and effort on subjects that matter to him and to his future.. and really, that's what it's *supposed* to be about, not making choices of courses based on how GPA is impacted. Sorry if I sound like I'm up on a soapbox - it's not anyone here, it's our danged school district that gets me fired up about it - the counselors in ds' school actually suggest picking courses based on how it impacts your GPA, as well as suggest not putting high school courses taken in middle school on your transcript because they aren't weighted and might pull a GPA down, even if the student got an A.


Our ds is in the same situation - he has options to take higher level math through online courses or through our local university. FWIW, I think someone mentioned taking AP Statistics - that's what a lot of the kids in our district who are only one year ahead do to fill in that last year of math... but I'd be cautious about assuming that's what your ds would want to do. When we looked at the programs ds is interested in for college - there wasn't any credit given for AP Stats.

Best wishes,

polarbear

DS is only a 6th grader so behind your DS. As such, take my opinion with a grain of salt. However, we have considered some of the same issues and ultimately declined the opportunity for DS to take Algebra (instead of Pre-Algebra) back in 4th grade so now he will not take Calculus until 9th grade. We made that choice mostly because DS wanted to be confident of the strongest foundation and also because I wanted to delay Geometry until 7th grade due to misgivings about his relative visual-spatial weakness. As it turned out, the district switched the gifted math sequence (Geometry now before Algebra II) this year so DS ended up taking Geometry as a 6th grader anyhow. Even though Geometry has turned out to be very easyfor DS, on balance I am actually glad that we slowed him down. Since the acceleration decision at the beginning of 4th grade, we have discovered math competitions (AMC 8, AMC 10, etc.) and discrete math (Probability and Combinatorics as well as Number Theory). Based on the information that you provided, it appears that your DS may benefit more by challenging himself to improve in the area of competition math. I think that colleges, particularly selective ones, will be more favorably impressed by high AMC 10 and AMC 12 scores than Calculus in 9th grade or an 800 SAT Math. To echo several other posters, trigonometry is very important as a strong foundation for calculus as well as in competition math. I know that DS was lamenting a while back that he had trouble with a couple of competition math problems because the little bit of basic trigonometry(the 6 trig. functions plus common applications) that he briefly covered two years ago in Pre-Algebra was now fuzzy.

Thanks for all the info on chem before AP bio!

polarbear

Ditto.

We are going through the wringer with DD10s future middle now. MS starts in 6th here and she has already completed the AoPS Alg(a) class with a good mark. She will be taking the HS Maths entrance test on 5/18 to determine what would make the most sense.

I do not want her busing to the High School or even put into the 7th/8th grade one and would rather she be left alone to follow the AoPS curriculum instead. One advantage of doing the actual classes is that they are accredited. Putting ahead into a class intended for NT kids is not going to help her but the school is insisting that the cooperative exercises in a class room are essential. How?

So frustrated about this right now...

Meanwhile, back at the agenda - I would not recommend skipping Trig per se but if your DS is motivated and learns fast then why not cover it over the summer instead of sitting through a stultifying year of it.

Thank you everyone for all of your suggestions and comments. The only reason the trig question came up was because DS12 believes that the Honors Trig/pre-calc class will be easy and he likes the idea of being challenged by harder work. I have my own miss giving's about his choice because of the increased work load. I normally have never worried about his comprehension, but I also do not want him to be over challenged. I did ask the HS if we could review the text books this week. Also I am older and from a small school that had no honors or AP, and my son as an 8th grader has no experience with AP classes. I am concerned that taking two AP classes in 9th along with Marching Band and his other courses may be overwhelming. This year Honors Algebra 2 has about 6 hours a week of homework. This was a 1st for him in Math. Val we have used some of the AOPS and some of their books (Great books). This looks like something we will need to talk about more with DS 12. So far he has made all his own choices for HS from 9th -12th and map out a plan. This was with my input; perhaps I undervalued Trig with him.

The reason for looking at an AP science course in 9th is because our district pushes most AP courses into 11th and 12th. He would prefer to complete some of the AP courses in 9th and 10th and reduce his work load for 11 and 12th. I have seen this with some of the older boys in my son's scout troop. They have to take up to 4 AP courses in 11 and 12th to be competitive in there college applications. Currently DS 12 wants to go to Cal Tech (I can only hope he sticks with this choice, who knows what he will want down the road). I understand that his goal my be a bit lofty, but I am trying to find ways to best support this in and out of school. Because math and science are his strengths we are looking to advance in these areas within the school, and use outside sources like AIME. There is unfortunately nothing in our area for outside science competitions.

I will also explore the idea of AP Chem in 9th vs. AP Bio. DS is willing to do some work over the summer; however this year is pretty booked up.

Edwin, please ask to see a "previous syllabus" or "grade scheme" for the AP courses he's looking at, too.

That will be a glimpse at how crushing the workload is in those courses. What we found was that AP moved faster (good), but that it wasn't necessarily taught at a level that was deeper/harder intellectually (neutral, I suppose), but that there was a brutal increase in the volume of work expected out of the students in those courses. So sure, they were still doing one page essays-- but four a week, rather than the one in "honors" or the one every two weeks in "regular" English. Does that make sense?

DD really didn't learn to work smarter in those AP courses, but at least the pace didn't allow for procrastination (good)-- then again, I don't think they were great college prep, either, since they weren't really at that level. The work was definitely still secondary level in my opinion-- there was just twice as much of it.

I'll second HK's recommendation to look at the syllabus or network with parents who's children have taken the specific AP course *at the same school* your ds will be taking it at to see how the course is taught.


This is true for some of the AP courses at my ds' school, but not for math - Calc etc are relatively straightforward, and the workload (here) for the advanced math isn't really any more than it is for any other math class - for a kid who grasps math concepts easily.

Re the AP courses that require a lot of writing... I don't know if this is true everywhere, but the more I hear about our local AP courses of this nature... the more they remind me of the dreaded "teach to the test" rather than "think deep".


It's possible to get bogged down in a heavy-workload class that's not AP too - so many times it seems to depend upon the teacher of each specific course.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Lots of good advice. I would add that if your son wants to attend a school like Caltech, he should not lighten his course load for 11th and 12th. Colleges want increasing course rigor, not "slacking" as a junior/senior. Perhaps slacking isn't the right term, but DD17 wanted to lighten the load for 12th, but was convinced to do otherwise. She wanted easier science and math courses. Finally decided on AP Physics C for 12th and Linear Algebra (so not an AP math).

Are there other areas that he can explore instead of blowing through the math and science? Could be academics, music or athletics. Top colleges see plenty of applications from kids who took lots of advanced math and science courses, with math/science ECs. Both my older two take/took two languages through AP level, eldest was active in band and both play/played sports (varsity & travel). Not saying that is "enough" to get a kid into top schools, but he will be competing against kids that have done a lot outside of math/science.

Well we met with the school today, and have a good start. In regards to taking AP Cal without Trig/pre cal. They and most on the board suggested that DS12 take the Honors Trig/pre-cal. We went over this with DS and he wants to take on online self paced course before the start of next year. The HS is ok with that as long as it is WASC accredited. So in regards to that one I am searching for such a school. (looking at The Keystone School. I like Giftedandtalented however it does not seem to be accredited, the same with Alkes. CTY does not seem to be self paced) For the AP Bio, we are being moved up the food chain for a decision. So far so good, overall it went well. Thank you again to everyone.

AoPS is WASC-accredited. Do use the pretests.