I am very excited that my 11 yr old daughter scored so well on the WiSC:GAI 153 VCI 155 PRI 131
However, I don't know what to make of the 24 pt difference between her VCI and PRI score. I am a psychologist and have done LD evaluations. Often this difference is indicative of a learning disability....but obviously this is not the case. I am wondering if anyone can shed light on what this may mean if anything. In addition, I was so surprised she scored this way because on her COgat she took in Kindergarten she had a 99 in nonverbal and 93 in Verbal. In addition, on every group achievement test she has taken, she has scored in the 99th percentile in math and science and 92-95 percentile in verbal. The discrepancy was even greater on her Explore test that she took in 4th grade.
So my question is if she is near the top range for the wisc verbal why is she not scoring this on the achievement tests? Is this because she is not being challenged enough? Her reading comprehension score is fact usually the lowest in the 80%. She is a voracious reader, reads at very high levels, and is amazing at creative writing. She is not perfectionistic like many HG kids. I am wondering if that may have something to do with it.
Don't get me wrong, I am very pleased with all of her scores. I just want to make sure that I don't miss something that may need addressing and there is so little out there about these differences near the ceiling of the tests.

Congrats on her scores! And I'm a school psych.

Was there any variation in the subtests? How were the WMI and PSI? (If done.) Did the bonus points (or lack thereof) for speed on block design affect her PRI? Even if not perfectionistic, a reflective kid can be unduly penalized for their lack of zip. Was a block design/no time bonus alternate subtest score calculated? If so, was it significantly different?

If the PRI is legit, another factor to consider is the extent to which abstract/fluid reasoning affects higher-level reading comprehension, especially inferential reasoning. The verbal subtests on the WISC include some verbal reasoning, but are heavily weighted toward crystallized intelligence. They also, with the exception of the Comprehension subtest, require relatively little receptive language, since Similarities and Vocabulary each consist of one- or two-word stimuli. Even Comprehension allows you to use your experiential knowledge and context to fill in language comprehension. And, of course, the questions aren't as long as multi-paragraph reading selections. Her language expression skills, by your report, are strong, and consistent with the VCI. It's the receptive language that seems a bit inconsistent with the VCI, but may be reflective of relative weaknesses in inferential thinking that potentially may be exhibited in the PRI.

I'm kind of pondering this as I go, so I apologize if there are gaps in coherence. But just some thoughts to begin with.

Her lowest PRI score was 13 on Picture Concepts.
I only asked for the GAI. He did give part of the arithmetic to test her memory. He reported it was excellent. I am pretty sure her processing speed is fast as she is often the first to finish when testing.
Here is are all the scores I have:Cogat in kindergarten: Verbal 73% 110 Quantitative 81% 114 Nonverbal 99% 135 Q+NV 97% 129 Composite 93% 124
Grade 3 ITBS Reading 89% Language 99% Math 99% Information 99%
Grade 4 Explore composite 64% English 68% (69) Usage 78% Rheotrical skillts 54% Math 64% (84) Reading 54% (41 )Science 75% (74) ( first % amongst to the 8th graders, second amongst 4th grade peers)
Grade 5 ITBS Reading 92% Language 99%Math 99 SS 95% Science 98% Information 99%
Grade 5 MAP Math 243.3 99% Reading 235.4 96%

Reading comp appears to be the lowest score. Her lexile score is very high...U-W range.

I am wondering if she is just not interested or challenged by the reading comp. and just careless.
She took the Explore test again in Jan. I asked her to check her Reading comp carefully and double check. She said she did and though she did well. We will see if that helps her scores.

Any other ideas would be helpful. Again, the Verbal wisc just seems strange.

I am a teacher so perhaps I can offer a different perspective. I have often seen students who are exceptional readers who do not do as well on measures of reading comprehension. People who have excellent verbal skills are constantly using language to derive meaning. They are regularly synthesizing info to come up with the big picture, they do the same thing when they read. They are identifying with the characters, deciding how the plot relates to real life, trying to understand hidden meanings but not paying attention to minutiae (which is usually what a reading comprehension test is asking for). I don't think her reading comprehension is necessarily a weakness, I think the abilities that make her exceptionally skilled at verbal reasoning actually make tests measuring reading comprehension harder. My guess is if you asked her open ended context questions it would be clear that her reading comprehension is very good. The other standby is that executive functioning is often more related to math ability than much of what is measured in IQ testing, maybe that is where she excels. Thus, explaining the difference in her standardized achievement test scores.

Hi

I'm sorry to invade this thread - but aeh - could you explain what is meant by "crystallized intelligence"?

LLR - my DS7 also has a pretty huge VCI/PRI split (though it's nothing compared to his 94-point VCI/PSI split!), and your thread is so helpful!

Thanks to you both,
sue

I'm not aeh, but crystallized intelligence refers to acquired knowledge, or "hard facts," if that helps, which largely depend on personal experience of some sort, whether that's in the form of events, personal experiments, direct learning, etc. For example, vocabulary is built through experience when we read, or when we hear others using terms in their correct contexts. A richer experience of language will naturally assist children in test questions that assume familiarity with the terms used.

This differs from fluid intelligence, which is what we rely on when we experience novel puzzles or challenges, and have to figure them out on the fly. Questions where you have to fill in the blanks for number and geometric patterns rely on this ability.

FWIW, my DD9 had different numbers, but a similar spread on the WISC between VCI and PRI; that is, both were quite high, but her verbal was just MUCH higher. Other ability tests she took, though, revealed less of a spread, with the verbal still always coming out VERY high.

You mentioned EXPLORE and reading comprehension, and DD took this as a 3rd grader. I would have expected "Reading" to be one of her best scores, but it was, in fact, one of her lowest! It was "English" that was her high score. I actually asked DD's WISC tester whether this was alarming/surprising, and she said no, not at all (she didn't seem to think that I should be the least bit concerned). sallymom's observation is interesting. My DD, like yours, is a voracious reader. Considering her achievement levels, my DD is also not much of a perfectionist.

sallymom, I'd be curious to know more about what you've noticed with executive functioning and math ability. DD's EF often seems, to be, well, um LACKING (is she playing me???). Yet somehow, she has been doing amazingly well on various math achievement tests. OTOH, DS seems to have better EF skills (and a had a better WM on the WISC), and he seems to be even better at math than his sister was at the same age (then again, he won't read as much as she will, (sigh)).

LLR, your DD may actually have a better memory than mine - WM was DD's lowest score on the WISC.

So from a functional standpoint, the spread has seemed insignificant for us, so far. DD is extremely high achieving.

Thank you all for the feedback. Interesting perspectives. regarding a relative weakness in inferential reasoning (aeh) or her high verbal reasoning getting in the way (sallymom), I think I would need to look at the kinds of questions she is missing in reading comp. I think I may give her some example test questions in reading comp and see how she does. I tend toward Sallymom's hypothesis because her description would definitely fit for me and I do think her reading comp is actually pretty good.
As far as executive functioning, she is highly disorganized when it comes to her room, locker, backpack, clothes...etc. She has lost at least 6 pairs of horseback riding gloves and 4 expensive dressage whips in the past 3 years. Her hygiene is a constant struggle. However, she wakes up at exactly 5:30 every morning to play on the computer and watches the news before school. She reports the news highlights to my husband on the way to school including the weather and basketball stats in great detail. Then, she manages to be sitting at her computer the precise moment her computer time starts every night. However at home, she often wets her pants because she is so engaged in what she is doing that she ignores her body. Asynchrony? This makes my husband and I crazy. ;-) Oh, and the one that REALLY drives us Nuts is her complete lack of urgency regarding everything she does. Hurry is not really something she does well....if we really push, she cries and falls apart.

At least now that I am learning more about asynchrony, this all makes a little more sense. ;-)

Yes, that is the difference between crystallized and fluid intelligence, more or less. I was postulating that one explanation for the apparent discrepancy was that the high VCI was mainly a reflection of crystallized intelligence (hence vocabulary and knowledge), reflective of reading early and often, while a relatively lower fluid intelligence was associated with lower reading comprehension.

"Relatively," being the operative word.

I see this with my DD, who will overthink and confuse herself on multiple-choice reading comp questions sometimes, but who can write an open-ended response like a dream. She scores sky-high on verbal reasoning tasks like analogies, though.

So my other hypothesis was that this may be a difference between expressive and receptive language, as two out of three VCI tasks require minimal receptive, and more expressive language. Reading comp is largely receptive language, especially the way it is assessed on group standardized testing. So that would be consistent with writing well. Her reading comp is still very good.

How common is it to be stronger on expressive language than receptive, aeh? I might say this is true of DD. I would think it would be more common to be the other way around, right? My more neurotypical (for lack of a better word) son is clearly stronger on receptive than expressive.

Loy58 What I have found in the classroom is that executive functioning seems to have more of an impact on academic success then the traditional model of crystalized and fluid intelligence, especially success in math. The school psych that I work with often administers a traditional IQ test (WISC etc) and an instrument based on PASS theory (Planning, Attention-Arousal, Simultaneous, Successive). The children that do well on the PASS instruments (?not sure this is phrased correctly, the psych people can chime in:)) are the ones that knock it out of the park in the classroom, especially in logic based areas like science and math. Almost without fail a student that has a very high IQ and does poorly on the CAS 2 will struggle with organization, logical thinking and while they may be exceptionally bright they can't communicate it via their school performance. On the other hand, I have had students that have a high average IQ and will perform in the Superior range on the CAS 2 who are amazing students. They perform so well, are working several grades ahead and as a teacher I am often amazed that they are not gifted or at least not classified as such. These students also tend to be more creative. Maybe the experts can chime in, I would be interested in their opinions:).

The CAS2 is a kind of cognitive instrument as well, but with emphasis on different factors than the WISC. But yes, EF is extremely important to the real-life expression of cognitive-academic abilities. After all, it's the primary factor that separates successful from unsuccessful post-secondary students and working professionals. And yes, especially for math.

As to receptive vs expressive language: I do see it from time to time. I just had a couple of evals recently (not 2e) with students perceived as being severely cognitively impaired who actually had much higher verbal cognitive ability than teachers expected, but horrific listening comprehension. In the classroom, they generally present more like their receptive language than their expressive language--except when they suddenly surprise you. I would expect the inconsistencies to be even more marked in high cognitive students.

Fascinating, sallymom and aeh!

I can't speak to most of this stuff, but my son was diagnosed at 2.5 with receptive expressive language disorder due to having higher expressive than receptive language. He scored at 4.5 for expressive and around 3.5 for receptive. It was very hard to understand how being ahead in both could be a disorder, but it definitely made him different from other kids. He did not understand more than he said, he understood exactly what he was able to say, maybe less? It didn't really change much since now at age 5 we talk to him like an adult and he responds at the same level. My son does have disabilities (ASD, possible ADHD, probable etc.) and we find out in the coming week if he is in fact 2e, but just thought I'd chime in with our experience with odd language development.