Hi everybody.
I am very new to this forum, and have been reading all the post for past two weeks. This forum is so informative, my thanks to all members.
Anyway my DS4 (almost five), has been tested by a local psychologist with the WPPSI- III, if we would qualify for the gifted program in a public school (so far we have been homeschooling, so I had no comparison to other children). These
are the results:
Verbal subtest: information-19
Vocabulary-15
Word reasoning- 17
Performance: Block design- 19
Matrix reasoning- 17
Picture concepts- 17
Procesing: Symbol search-14
Coding-13
The composite scores: Verbal 143
Performance 148
Processing speed 119
Full 146
After a little period of quiet panic, I did a lot of research.
I see that we are missing the Young scholar cut of by 2 points.
I research the test numbers, and was wondering if DS have hit the test ceiling. I called the psychologist, and she said no, the test ceiling is 160. However, I think that in the 2 subtest he scored 19, and that is the highest number he could get.
So my question is this: has he hit the ceiling? Would these numbers in fact qualify him for Davidson program? Or should we retest? What test to use then ( I understand that the same test cannot be administered again for a certain period of time)? I am very new to all this, and thank you all for any type of guidance.

Hi there!

My ds6's scores were very, very similar when he took the WPPSI last year. I had about 2 months of quiet panic.

Your ds *did* hit ceilings on those 19s. Though he didn't ceiling the whole test, he did ceiling portions of it -- and his end score could have been higher with higher ceilings.

From my experience, no, these scores *won't* get your ds into DYS; we applied with very similar WPPSI scores (his FS was 148), and his WIAT achievement scores that *were* considerably over the line in two areas. I was hoping the ceilings would be taken into consideration -- he could have tested higher on a test with a higher ceiling. But he was turned down; they asked for more test results and/or work samples. We haven't had any more testing done at this point.

So yes, you'd probably need to retest if you're interested in Davidson's. At your ds's age, you could have him take the Stanford-Binet 5. Or you could wait until he turns 6 and have him take the WISC -- though the professionals I've spoken to suggest waiting until 6.5 or 7 to take the WISC.

If I were you, I'd go ahead and send in the scores anyway. You never know. Did you have achievement testing done at the same time? If not, you'd need to have that done as well.

I know how frustrating it is to have those *almost there* scores! OTOH, you've already learned quite a bit about your ds, and if you're able to provide work that will challenge him at home, DYS isn't the end-all, be-all of the world. There are a lot of kids who *almost* make the cut, and I certainly don't envy the selection committee their jobs!

And, this board is a fabulous source of support and advice; stick around. You'll learn a lot. Welcome!

Curious... We were planning on waiting until 6 (next summer) to do WISC. He'd be a "young" 6. What was the reason for waiting? Kriston if you're reading, when did you guys do it?

Thanks.

JB

Oh, Niki, we decided to not take the WPPSI just in case we ran into test ceilings too. I am not sure if there is overlap between the WPPSI and WISC so we just opted to just wait.

JB

Not sure. I think it's a maturity thing, whatever that really means. We actually *did* try a WISC right after ds turned 6 -- the tester was reluctant to test such a young 6 but agreed to give it a go. And she was right! She ended up stopping after two subtests, saying it wasn't his day--he kept asking if she was trying to trick him! And this was a kid who had obviously cooperated beautifully with the WPPSI 8 months earlier. Maybe it really just wasn't his day -- or maybe there was a reason she'd been reluctant!

A different tester I spoke with said that between the WPPSI and the WISC for a 6yo, she tends to give the WPPSI because of what she referred to as "maturity level."

Of course, take all this with a grain of salt--ask your own people, use your own judgement with your own child. But both the testers I spoke with recommended waiting until at least 6.5 on the WISC.

ETA: Both these testers are highly experienced with gifted kids.

A bad day could still happen to us. He had one during the WIAT test and basically that test was ended early for us. We'll keep it in mind.

Thanks.

JB

I'm just here for a second, JBD.

If memory serves, DS7 was 6y8mo when he took the WISC. He was totally into the testing. Had great fun with it and with the tester.

But then again, he was also tested by the school on a group IQ and the WJ-III achievement at 5.5-ish yo, and he was highly cooperative then, too, from all indications. <shrug>

I suspect this has more to do with personality than age. If DS7 is into what he's doing and being challenged, he's a laser (assuming he's had enough sleep and enough to eat). He always has been, even as an infant. So I'll bet we could have given him the WISC younger than 6 and had good results if we'd been so inclined. That's not the norm for most kids though! So I don't know how helpful our situation really is to the discussion...

Thanks everybody,
I was suspecting the ceiling issue was right. Oh well. It is a little frustrating.
So as I understand it right, it would be best to wait until he is 6-7 years of age. Or use the SB-5. I will have to research how it is available where we live.
I don't really know, how much would we be able to benefit from the Young scholar service. I am really just looking for guidance.
I am really not challenging him in any way, he does that plenty for him self. He has these urges "to know", so we go to the library and borrow around 40 books each week and I just read to him.
I will have to decide if we will continue next year, or send him to Public gifted kinder garden. Although he had testing with his knowledge into the 2nd grade as of now. We will see, where we end up at the end of the year. I am afraid, that he will be too bored at the school.

Hi, Niki!

My DS also took the WPPSI at 4.5 and scored FSIQ=149. We applied to DYS but he did not get in. We decided to request a grade skip for him and he is now doing very well in second grade. He will be 6 at the end of November.

We may retest on the WISC when he turns 6 to try again for DYS.

You may want to look into your options for early entrance to first grade.

Hi, I was told by DS7's tester that although he got 19's in several sections, he did not ceiling since there were still questions that he did not get to... So, even though a child receives 19's, it is my understanding that it doesn't necessarily equate to "hitting the ceiling" for that section. We took the WPPSI at 4y9m. Apparently, SB5 is a better test for the younger set and as others have mentioned, between 7y-8y is an ideal age for testing.

Thanks, Dottie!

Op, my ds had a range of scores like yours, but if I understand correctly, anything labeled with age equivalent >7.2 is a ceiling for the WPPSI. My ds even had a 16 that was a ceiling--not sure exactly how that happened.

Hmm... I don't think it does, Dottie. If it did, wouldn't I have gotten more accurate age norms than the ">7.2"s?

I hope you find something good--on my phone so I can't help. :-)

Hmm... Well, what's one to make of those >7.2 scores, then? Sorry, I'm confused...

Thanks Dottie. It sounds like a YMMV depending on the psychologist! It seemed odd to me too but the psych specifically wrote that although DS received 19's on several sections, he didn't ceiling since there were questions that he didn't get to on those sections. It was odd to include that but the psych went on to state that since DS didn't ceiling, the FSIQ is probably accurate...

I just looked at DS' WPPSI scores (age 4yrs 4mos)

The ceiling scores were:

Information 18 >7:2 99.6%ile
Vocabulary 18 >7:2 99.6%ile
Word Reasoning 18 >7:2 99.6%ile
Block Design 19 7:2 99.9%ile

I have wondered why the 18's were listed as >7:2 and the 19 was 7:2. Does anybody know why that is?

hmm, I'll check ds's exact scores and percentiles out when we get home and report back...

Interesting discussion for WPPSIers!

Wow, just when I thought I had all this stuff down, you ladies are thoroughly confusing me. Are you saying a score can ceiling lower than 19 based on age child took it.

So confused.............

If so, just for the WPPSI or could this apply to the WISC. And Dottie, you have DD8's scores and age when she took it. So theoretically you could tell me if any of those 17's and 18's were hard ceilings?

This conversation is starting to make my brain ache. Take pity on me, oh wise ones.....

Wow, you guys are great!
This is a great discussion. Cathy I don't understand also how it works. It does not make sense.
My DS at 4yr 9mo
Information: raw score 31, scaled score 19, >7:2, 99.9%
Vocabulary 29, 15, 7:2, 95%
Word Reasoning 24, 17, >7:2, 99%
Block Design raw score 36, scaled score 19, >7:2, 99.9%
matrix reasoning 23, 17, >7:2, 99.9%
Picture concepts 20, 17, >7:2, 99%

I would think that anything as >7:2 is as high as it goes provided by the test. What would constitute 7:3?

Hi Neato.

I found this article really helpful. It isn't the full story (Dottie can probably give you that ;)) but it is a start. http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10405.aspx

Here is what they say about ceilings

Ok, here were ds's ceiling scores (from what I understand), for comparison:

Information: scaled score 16, age equivalent >7.2, percentile 98
Vocabulary: 17, >7.2, 99
Comprehension: 18, >7.2, 99.6
Matrix Reasoning: 18, >7.2, 99.6
Picture Concepts: 19, >7.2, 99.9
Symbol Search: 17, >7.2, 99

Age 5y5m.

I'll look back and analyze later ... Someone is waiting for me to get the Wii ready for him.

Thanks ACS and Dottie, that's what I originally thought. On WISC IV 19 is ceiling for a 7yo. 17,18 are not maxed out.

Good luck to all you WPPSI people. Although DD6 took the WPPSI. Huh, I'll have to take a look because I thought 19 was a hard ceiling on that as well.........

So confused..............

After reading all this, I'm confused as well! His tester said those were "ceilings," but I don't really know if they were if it isn't a 19. But she definitely called the 17s and 18s (and that 16) ceilings, and said that for older children they can "ceiling" at a lower number.

I *think* that for ds (and many HG+ kids taking the WPPSI in general), it was a combo of Dottie's definitions 2-4.

Also soo confused ...

What I do know for sure: We all have very bright children.

I don't know if we're helping you at all, Niki!

Welcome Niki,

Those are wonderful scores unfortunately from what I have seen on this board they won't get you into Davidson.

We didn't get any age equivalents with the scores. First I was jealous when I read the other posts but looking at the >7:2 and 7:2 it would only confuse me.

The way I see >7:2 is the fact that they don't have samples going beyond 7:3. All they can tell you is that your child did better than 7:2 but that's about it. They cannot compare it to a higher age simply because they don't have data for let's say 8:0. I could see where 16 would mean the child did better than 7:2 but where you could still earn higher score. For example I know for sure that you can do better than 17 on both Matrix Reasoning and Picture Concepts, since my son had higher scores at the age 5:3.

Questions for Debbie. So what's the age when you can no longer hit 19 on WPPSI-III? We may have DS4 tested next year and I would hate to run into low ceilings problems. It's unlikely but I would like to avoid it anyway.

If I remember it correctly the low ceilings is one of the reasons why not to use WPSSI and wait till the child is 6. I would think the norms for 5 yr old on WPPSI are as good as SB-V (correct me if I am wrong) but the possible low ceilings (for child close to 6) and higher requirements make it difficult to make Davidson cutoff.

Thank you, everybody for the warm and "brainy" welcome.
It is Ok LMOM. The initial testing was done just for the
purpose of the local gifted school. I was just wondering
how do the tests work. And had not that big concern for
Davidson anyway. Nothing was expected, so no sorry feelings.
The tests are little confusing, now comparing other scores with
different ceilings at different age level. But that is ok,
it was just puzzling me, that is all.
My main concern is,that I don't miss anything or do something
wrong with the way my son is growing. My family and everybody
is reacting with the results as "Wow, this is great." But I am
almost overwhelmed with the added responsibility. We are just
a regular family, no scholars or anything in that league. So far he has learned everything sort of by him self, we are looking up answers to his questions constantly. But I don't know if I am doing enough for him. If you understand what I mean.
The psychologist told me, that she does not think that public
gifted would be a good fit, since it would be too slow for him.
Somebody also suggested (sorry I don't know all your names yet)
to skip into the first grade, and I will have to look into it.
My DS has a very strong OE, he does not have a problem to sit still, but all the feelings and senses are just so multiplied,
that I am afraid that he will have a hard time adjusting to
classroom and other children. I don't know if it makes any difference going into K vs. 1st, as far as social issues go.
Anyway, thank you so much.

IF we would decide to test again further along, what would be the
best way to go, then?

Oh, do we know what you mean! <reassuring smile> I think most of us with HG+ kids (and probably even a lot of parents of MG and GT kids [the ones too bright for regular schoolwork, but not making the 130 cut for GT programs]) know the feeling of panic that you're describing. I sure felt it!

On the bright side, the fear of messing up does subside as you learn more about GTness and find solutions to the problems you face. It crops up again at decision-making times, but it tends to go away more quickly each time because you learn that kids are resiliant, even in lousy situations (though that's NOT a reason to leave the kids IN those lousy situations any longer than absolutely necessary!), and that you can always change what you're doing because there are very, very few educational decisions that are irreversible.

So, in short, you've come to the right place, and it will all work out. Don't stress yourself out any more than you absolutely must. (It's normal, but the sooner you get past it, the better off you are. ) After all, worrying just for the sake of worrying won't help your son. And the sooner you get through the worry stage, the sooner you move into the taking action stage. That's where you want to be!

As for choosing to test...If there's no big rush, I'd wait until age 6 at least (maybe 6.5) and give him the WISC, unless there's some driving reason that you think the SB-V is a better fit. Supposedly Visual-Spatial learners do better on the SB-V than they do on the WISC, but that didn't hold true for my son, who appears to be VS. He's one of the few kids we discuss regularly here who took both tests--we had a bad test fit with the SB-V and bad test day due to lack of sleep, so we retested a few months later on the WISC--and he did better on the WISC. The results on the SB-V just didn't ring true with what we saw. The WISC made a lot more sense in relation to the total picture. I have a much better grasp of his strengths and his weaknesses after the WISC.

IM(not so)HO: I'd say you should give it 1.5-2 years if there's no pressing reason to test before that, and then get both the WISC and an achievement test like the Woodcock-Johnson. Then go into the testing with questions you'd like to have answered. Mine were "Is he qualified to apply for DYS?" and "What can we find out about how he learns?"

In the meantime, keep doing what you're doing: follow where your child leads you, look up the answers to the questions you don't already know the answers to, provide challenge wherever possible, encourage friendships with true peers (who may be a couple years older than your child), and keep your eyes peeled for good opportunities for your son.

You're doing fine!

You'll come to love that expertise with the numbers though, Niki! I really think we all ought to be paying Dottie for her help. Is there anyone on here who hasn't been helped by Dottie's test interpretations?

I can't imagine!

Would 4 points of headroom really mean 4 more questions? I think that on the WPPSI you can get 0,1 or 2 points on each question. So maybe that means there were only two more questions.

Kriston, thank you. Yes, you are absolutely right about everything.
I will get over the worry part soon, I hope. And yes, there is no rush, at all. I will keep doing, what we are doing, homeschooling-unschooling for the rest of PK4. And will see where we will end up at the end of the year. I really appreciate your encouragement.



Dottie, you are fantastic with the numbers. That makes a lot of sense with the raw score comparison. Thank you so much for the explanation. I will rest the ceiling issue to rest now.

Cathy and Dottie,
I would not be at all surprised that my DS missed those easy on the beginning questions. If something is very trivial, he thinks that there is something he is missing and it totally throws him off. The tester that he did not answer for example: what are shoes. If she would have asked him what is esophagus or echolocation, he would be more comfortable with that.
Wink wink

I'm convinced that what parents go through when seeing test scores that high is akin to the stages of grief--we all go through the same things in the same order, though some people get through them faster than others. You're through denial and into panic. Soon will come acceptance and then action.

So you're perfectly normal.

Just be warned: denial tends to creep back in from time-to-time. It's funny that way.

Ah HA, Dottie! The raw score thing is very helpful. For example:

On the Information subtest, my ds had a scaled score of 16, which is age equivalent >7.2, percentile 98, with a raw score of 30. If there are 34 points possible, and he only missed 4, he probably hit the end of the test without hitting termination point -- so a ceiling for him. And since he was at the older end of the test, it's probably not *that* uncommon -- hence "only" 98 percentile.

And had he gotten the other 4 points, then his scaled score would have been higher than that 16, and his percentile higher than 98, but his age equivalent would have still read >7.2.

Thanks! I really love this board. (Sorry to hijack your thread, Niki -- I'm a glutton for numbers. )

Ha. It's the least I can do, Dottie -- after all the info you've shared with me and other parents.


Agreed. As you say, to know then ... alas.

Niki, some more for you -- As I said, I went into a two-month hiatus on all my boards and just *read,* any and all the information I could find online about the HG+. You'll come out of the shell shock. I think the best piece of advice anyone gave me was that the number was just that -- a number, and my ds was still the same child after he was tested that he was before. It was just a new bit of info that can make you see the child in a different light.

As Kriston said, keep doing what you're doing. Following his interest, doing research, whatever catches his attention -- basically, keep feeding that little brain!

Schooling is hard. If you continue to homeschool, you'll likely blow through a lot of curricula pretty quickly. If you decide to go with public school, it's a mixed bag. Some find a lot of success at their public schools, with teachers and administrators who are willing to differentiate. Others go through a lot of advocacy efforts to try to secure appropriate placement for their kids, some with success, others not so much. Some hit dead-ends with schools who don't understand and aren't willing to try. It really, really depends. You might want to start investigating the gifted program at your school to see what they do with HG+ kids, what level of differentiation is offered, etc. Some gifted programs are great, others not so much.

Best of luck! Keep us posted!

Maybe, though I would add that one of the reasons our family went the homeschooling route with DS7 is because we can "go wide" (doing things like engineering that aren't studied in elementary) and "go deep" (with more hands-on and experiential learning opportunities), not just/primarily fast.

I feel compelled to make this point (tangential though it is...) because our biggest reason for choosing HSing over other educational options was because homeschooling was the best way we could find to slow down a bit. Grade and subject acceleration--assuming we could get them in our HIGHLY uncooperative school system--would make him go faster, but not necessarily deeper or wider, and faster isn't what would work best for our particular child. If we HSed, we thought that maybe in later years when schools have more to offer an HG+ child, he can return to public or private school.

So much depends on the particular kid. For some kids, fast is inevitable and works amazingly well. For others, wide and deep work better. Homeschooling is the best way I could find to go wide and deep, and that's what's best for our child.

Okay, back to your regularly scheduled numbers talk. Sorry to interrupt!

wow, thank you, lot of information here.
I feel the same way, Kriston, we cover a lot of themes on pretty
deep level. That is how my son's mind work, he has more questions and more questions, so we go deeper and deeper. And then we move onto something else. It works great for us as of now. We have started to tour the schools that are available. I am not from this country, so really don't know what to expect. My DS comes with me, as he wants to be able to participate with the decision. He was really looking forward to the Science lab, and was very disappointed with it, nothing beyond kitchen based potions that we have done already. He was looking forward to see if they have a microscope there. When he did not see any, he said, no reason to go to school for. We have 3 other schools to go to.

Good points, Kriston. It's true gt kids will cover lots of material but it will not necessary mean that they will move up only. They may go deeper or study things that may not be covered at school at all. Like this week we have been playing with the Morse code. Sure we could fit in a few more math lessons instead but we are having fun with it and there is no rush. Or watching Joy of Mathematics won't make him fly through Singapore Math any faster (or at least not at his current workbook), but he will learn something new.

Niki, I had to laugh when I read about the microscope and not needing school. He may have a point You are doing the right thing looking around to see what's available. I don't know if homeschooling is an option, but you may also want to explore local homeschooling groups to see what's available there as well.