DS9 will be taking the KTEA on August 11. His psychologist is testing mainly for his mathematical abilities. He took the WISC IV in April 2012 but due to his advanced math we want a more math oriented test for his educational needs.
I am not familiar with the KTEA and we were initially under the impression that the SB5 would be administered. What info can you guys give me?
The KTEA is an achievement test. He already had the WISC, so there was no obvious reason to re-administer a cognitive test, unless the psychologist felt the WISC was not valid. The KTEA-II has measures of basic skills and higher-level application/comprehension/reasoning for oral language, reading, writing, and mathematics, including phonological processing. The KTEA-III, which just came out this spring, includes measures of fluency also. Either would be appropriate at this time, unless fluency is particularly important to the referral question.
He did the WISC-IV right after he turned 8 in 2nd grade. The problem we have is that while we know he is advanced in the verbal portion, he is not gifted. His FSIQ was 123 at the time with the WISC. He is highly advanced in his math. In 2nd grade he was in the 98th-99th% on the MAP testing for math and 89-94th% for reading. He took the test for JHU CTY and qualified completely for math and science and is currently doing math courses through there. He is going into 4th grade this fall and will be completing pre-algebra and Algebra I. He went through 5th and 6th grade Honors in 7 weeks.
His current school is very supportive of his math abilities and fully accepts his courses. However, he is going to a school out of district at this time. He will be going back into our home district in 2 years for middle school and will require an IEP. The highest math class in the MS's here is geometry which he will most likely be taking in 5th grade.
Basically we need to find out exactly how advanced he is in order to properly map out his education. He will have to attend high school for math classes. We have had to fight our school district multiple times because he doesn't qualify for their gifted program based on his CogAT. He completely bombed it and ended up with 40% lol. Even though the psychologist wrote that the CogAT should be invalidated based on the WISC IV results, they refused to. His principal (in district) said he needs to learn how to be bored in school because school is boring and the school and district refused to advance him or give him challenging work.
His principal (in district) said he needs to learn how to be bored in school because school is boring and the school and district refused to advance him or give him challenging work.
!!!
I can't remember off-hand what you've said already about his profile, but I would consider further evaluation to look for 2e. Your existing data sounds like the numbers were Superior cognition, but not quite gifted, but achievement is three years advanced for grade/age. That suggests that he may actually be gifted, but with some focal deficits (i.e., LD). You mention that he was advanced in the verbal portion, which sounds like his performance on the other areas were noticeably different/lower, which would be consistent with an LD. I see there is also mention of needing an IEP. Are you talking about a classical special education IEP, for a disability, or a GIEP, for gifted services? If the former, then there must be an identified disability which one may be able to cite as explaining the depressed FSIQ. Also, presumably there would be accommodations, which might have implications for the use of the CogAT.
He does have ADHD, combined type. He is not medicated and we have found that as long as he is challenged he does extremely well. He has his moments but 99% of the time he just needs to be fully engaged with a challenge. He actually has an extremely high processing speed which is really backwards for an ADHD kid. He had several areas that were listed as superior but the majority of the WISC IV had him rated as above average. His psychologist agrees that he is most likely highly gifted but due to all of the issues at his past school in combination with absolutely zero sleep the night before the test may have negatively impacted the actual test results. We treat him as if he is gifted with the opportunities that he needs individually, regardless of the WISC results. That is one of the main reasons the psychologist recommended the KTEA.
On the verbal portion of the WISC he scored around a 110 I believe, but I would have to pull his scores out to verify. The psych did say straight out that the CogAT should never be used for him due to his ADHD with a test that he finds completely non-engaging. DS9's words after the CogAT were "That was the most useless test ever".
For the IEP, he will require a GIEP in order to go to the HS for his math courses. It was agreed that he will need, at a minimum, Honors Humanities courses as well.
My DS13, which I also have a thread about, is the one that truly has severe difficulties with a still undiagnosed LD.
I think the psychologist wanted to start with the KTEA before doing further testing but I really have no idea what that will show exactly. I did see an example for it with math up to Algebra and DS9 will be able to easily answer up to what I saw.
Just as an extra, our psychologist is one of the ones that Seabury in Tacoma, WA refers their applicants to. The vast majority of his patients consist of gifted and 2E which is why we selected him. Thank goodness our insurance is paying for it!
The psych may also consider re-testing with the WISC-V, instead of the SBV, as it does have a Quantitative Reasoning Index, separate from the Fluid Reasoning and Visual Spatial Indices.
And some ADHD kids do have high PSI on rote-type tasks, where being a little impulsive doesn't hurt you too much, and may actually make you faster. Especially if they are conscious of being timed. It's one of the reasons that extended time accommodations can be a double-edged sword for kids with ADHD. It's part of the hyperfocusing, which many ADHD persons can do for short periods of time. (Remember, ADHD doesn't mean difficulty attending, it means difficulty -regulating- attention, which can cut both ways.)
I'm not sure what the next steps will be but I am hopeful the KTEA will offer some sort of insight and better assess his abilities. Is that a recommended test for a child like mine or is there a better one?
DS9 does not have any time accommodations. He tends to be the first one done in almost everything.
I like it better than the WJ. My go-to is the WIAT-III, but with the new KTEA coming out, I am leaning that way as a preferred achievement test. I would put the KTEA and WIAT about on a par. I know some people prefer the high ceiling of the WJ for gifted kids (and ceiling effects can be an issue on the WIAT), but I like the depth and complexity of the tasks better on the KTEA and WIAT. I think they are better representations of the academic skills they purport to measure than the WJ's short-response tasks. Especially in written language.
On the KTEA, the math concepts subtest can go up to calculus, while the calculation subtest covers through a variety of algebraic computations.
It sounds like you have an experienced evaluator, which will be very helpful.
Fantastic news on the KTEA. That has really put my mind to rest so thank you for that!
He did mention possibly the WIAT but said that he felt the KTEA would be better for my son. I'm glad to hear it does go up to calculus so we should be able to get a good idea of his actual abilities. For calculation, DS9 LOVES Algebra. That is all him lol.
I would like to see how the KTEA compares to the WISC on the verbal portion. I know they are completely different types of tests but it will be interesting none the less.
I will be interested to hear, as well. Keep us posted.
[And I'm going to give some time to my own kiddos, now, but I am definitely planning to get back to your other thread, on your other child!]
Yeah, it's a jump back and forth lol. DS9 is at camp and DS13 is being antisocial with me right now so I am on the computer
OK, so we just finished with his psych appointment. He wasn't tested today but he is scheduled for next Monday. His psych isn't doing the entire KTEA, just the math testing. He does want to test DS9 with the WISC V. The psych goes through his training next month for it and was in DC last week learning about it. After he is trained up DS9 will be tested.
One thing we did talk about was during the WISC IV we found he is not verbally gifted (which I already knew) but he is in the above average range at 123. His working memory was rated as very superior. The psych thinks the WISC V will give a much more in depth and true rating of his abilities.
jaggirl47, have you read
Developing Math Talent? I am reading it now, and you might find it interesting, too.
Prufrock Press: Developing Math Talent
No I haven't. That is something I will look at when I have more time to read (after school starts back!). DS9 is enrolled in JHU CTY and is doing math courses through them. He starts 4th grade next month and will be in pre-algebra. His psych recommended we apply for the Charles Wright Academy. It is very expensive but they offer excellent scholarships.
OK, so DS9 took 2 math subtests on the KTEA today. We are attempting to get his actual math levels. He took about 45 minutes on the 2 subtests and came out smiling saying he had a lot of fun. He also said that he was able to do all of it minus 3 questions.
What do the math subtests consist of and what exactly are the 2 subtests?
There is a calculation subtest, which is a series of progressively more challenging math problems of various types, in isolation. (I.e., just a naked math problem in a box, with negligible language.) Completed as a paper and pencil task, not timed.
The reasoning subtest consists of mostly word problems, presented orally. Some can be solved without paper and pencil, others might require scratch paper. Multi-step problems and applications are the emphasis. Also not timed.
The KTEA-III, which just came out, also has a fluency subtest, which is how fast you can write your math facts down. Timed, clearly.
He just did 2 subtests because we have fluency tests already from school and his processing speed and working memory are both in the very superior range. I'm really hoping this helps us see exactly what he needs. We are applying for a new school next year so fingers crossed!
I saw that someone already recommended Developing Math Talent, parts of which I found helpful with our mathy DS. I also found several parts of this talk on developing problem solving skills very helpful:
http://mathprize.atfoundation.org/a...ntation_at_Math_Prize_for_Girls_2009.pdfHmm, just realizing this may be off topic.
